Jacks 5-12-26 soluability problem, can you guess before Jr peters

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azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Ok here’s the deal; I’m just going to post what I wrote to Dr. Peters (head chemist) regarding the 5-12-26 and the lack of total solubility which in their own words, it should have. You can get the gist of what is going on by reading what I wrote them so I’ll save my breath. Haven’t heard back as of yet but I have a hunch there are some of you out there that may figure this out. It will be a good exercise anyway.

Also in case you didn’t know, I’m not the only person to figure out that jacks 5-12-24 has a problem with hitchhiking buggars. Their website does not include the 5-12-26 with the algae problem (or whatever it is that grows in stock solutions) but it is there and that is why I would like to put some h202 or chlorine in my stock. It isn’t from my containers as the gal at Jacks first suggested, I must also say they are good folks there so I’m not complaining, this is just another step to figure out my problem i'm having so my yealds can go back to what I’m use to having. My Veg is absolutely loving 3 5-12-24 and 2.44 of Cano3

So here is the email with my name removed;
This came back to me as undeliverable, I assume because of the file size with photos, (9mb). I have removed all but one of the photos now., the last showing material in the bottom. It looks to me to be crystals or metalic, i'ts hard to tell from the photo. Another thing I forgot to mention is that in the past when I placed the 5-12-20 into a 2l bottle and added ro or distilled directly to it, the bottom would get real hot when mixing. That is a reason I mix in a bucket, figuring perhaps It should be stirred rather than shaken however, the result is always the same.


From:
To:
Subject:
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:00:26 -0600

Hello Dr. Peters.

My name is, I was referred to you by Lyn she suggested I present you with a couple questions. I’m hoping that you can resolve issues Im having so I don’t have to publish to forums asking for other growers suggestions about jacks 5-12-26 that I keep hearing great things about.

The first question that is pretty straightforward is this; can I add chlorine or h2o2 to a stock solution to prevent alge growth? I though I read on a thread somewhere you do not recommend mixing 5-12-26 with chlorinated water? If so, is that due to some effect on EDTA’s or just because chlorinated h20 is usually tap and that has Calcium and who knows what else? I use RO and add chlorine in measured amount. Ive noticed that after about day 5 after mixing a stock solution, small growth starts in my stalk solution container, not a lot but enough to annoy me.. Lyn advised that I should use the stock within 5 days, however that defeats the purpose of a stock. I sanitize my rex with h2o2 or give 10ml chlorine pr 20gal which some plants I grow need as a nutrient, others tolerate it well too, I rotate h2o2 with chlorine each week in rez changes. Is 5-12-26 only be added directly to the Rez. If there is no ability to sanitize the stock?


My bigger dilemma is with indissolubility and lyn states there should be total dissolvability.

I’m dissolving a 2L concentrate (stock) for 80 gallons. 240g of 5-12-26 (only, no other ingredients) in 2 L of warm distilled water (started with multiple RO sources, went to distilled after problem continues) (tried hot water too). Ive tried shaking, stirring, you name it, stainless steel, glass pot, BP free plastic bucket lol. I suspect contamination of some sort, I keep my ferts in the original package in a 5 gallon bucket sealed with a screw on gamma lid (see photo’s), air tight and in temps not exceeding 85 degrees.

Lyn had stated that it may be a trace of Calcium in my container causing a precipitate. Photo shows I thoroughly cleaned and rinsed with distilled h2o (rinse was after sanitize and air dry), also EC’d h2o after distilled h2o sat in container for an hour, no EC change. The photo that shows the 200ppm chlorine sanitizer was for the bucket and was also made with distilled h20 so there should not have been any calcium present to cause the slightest precipitate..


Lyn stated the limit of dissolvability is 1/2 tsp pr gallon, that didn’t make sense to me and seemed like the recipe for small batches of finished solution, and now I confirm that from what lyn sent in mixing directions. your dissolvability of jacks should be roughly 1 ½ pounds per 2L if my calculations are correct? Which I am way way under, I couldn’t imagine not being able to mix a stock for only 80 gallons. Irrigardless I am doing this experiment with a total of 2l h2o and adding 240g to total volume of h20 to rule out any displacement guessing, again that is way way under dissolvability, if packaging info is correct.

I don’t go by teaspoons for measuring, I use calibrated scales, tds, ec, and ppm meters all with backups, so it isn’t like I just decided to grow Hydroponics yesterday, you can refere in ppm’s and weighted measures. As I stated to lyn I’ve used multiple RO sources, I have not experienced this problem with mixing other nutes that are totally h2o soluble. I’m no expert though so perhaps It’s my error somehow. You will see my ec taken from the 2l bottle of distilled h20 after it sat for an hour. So my conclusion is there isn’t anything leaching from my containers. They are squeaky clean

I decided to go about this in a scientific approach to help you, help me to see the errors of my ways. I trying to rule out ANY contaminated ro on my end by using distilled (yet this time again) and taking photos along the way with ec measurements. This shouldn’t be rocket science.

Lyn stated if it was a batch problem I wouldn’t be the only one reporting a problem, that may be true, but would I be informed if there was a problem back in January? I informed her that I purchased this quite a while back, Jan 22, 2012 ( I did not tell her the date). I quit using the product after noticing un-dissolved solids, crunchies that I worried about getting in my pumps. I went to other products, but keep coming back to this bag because of hearing so much positive feedback from other growers, also to use it up.. Ive been using it up alright dumping and dumping, mixing and mixing again and again. Plants have had strange lockout problems and I’ve been chasing deficiency problems that look like MG deficiency. This is un characteristic results for my methods of cultivating, I though I had off gassing issues, old hydroten, ect.. Each step of the way illuminating them from the equation through a scientific approach, like new hydroten next to a year old cleaned hydroten, nope that isn’t the issue. Take everything out of my room sanitize, change panda, take out the tent, ect. Nope not the problem... I’m not saying this is the issue, I just need to rule out something that seems odd. I may just go back to mixing Hoagland.



2 different scales calibrated to 20g rules out measuring error.

EC of Distilled bottled water with reading of 0

Containers checked for leaching, EC reading 0

mixed with warm water new plastic stirrer, mix, wait, wait, wait.

Photo shows salts that are shinny, perhaps a metal? I could run it through a coffee filter and send it to you?


Thank you in advance for any suggestions you might have.

Then I sent this email;

I sent you an email earlier one came back undeliverable I believe due to the number of photos I sent you, I forwarded that again with only one picture and it seems to have been delivered. So I took another photo just now after I strained the solution through a new nylon stalking. Took some photo's from the camera and some through the microscope, looks like some kind of salts and something black and squiggley. Ill try sending 2 pics.
 
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Quantrill

Quantrill

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you mixing in that black plastic bucket?

is the black squiggly stuff plastic shavings off the bucket after stirring mechanically?

As with any dilution, add the solute slowly to the solvent, adding more only after what has already been added is dissolved.

store the stock solution in an opaque container made from PET or HDPE.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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you mixing in that black plastic bucket?

is the black squiggly stuff plastic shavings off the bucket after stirring mechanically?

As with any dilution, add the solute slowly to the solvent, adding more only after what has already been added is dissolved.

store the stock solution in an opaque container made from PET or HDPE.
I considered it possibly being shavings but it's microscopic if you look at what looks like shavings, that means the crystals are like diamonds, how sharp and precise those shavings are. Again it should be soluble and it doesn't look like a precipitate. I put it in the bucket because I was adding 5-12-26 to a full 2ltr and it wouldn't all fit back into to bottle. As far as the soda bottle it's stored in paper bags and used to see the shit that grows and the solids that dont dissolve. Ive mixed it in stainless, glass, ect and always store it in hdpe or in this case.

However to add to this experiment i'll take pics tomorrow of adding a tiny bit at a time to show it doesn't dissolve, shit falls. That may very well be the black is plastic from the shit as hard as diamonds lol. in fact Ill do that right now adding 50 grams, 1o grams at a time to 2l distilled, in a glass container.
 
TrichromeFan

TrichromeFan

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I get the bit of granular undissolved Jack's in the bottom of my rez. I use hot RO to mix in and still same thing. So far it hasn't hurt a thing. Plants are just happy. I wash the rez, and repeat. I also use Zone at a rate of 1-2ml per gal. It is the first thing in the mix. My batches are nice and stable. I am drain to waste, and get a week on a 100gal rez of solution. PH goes up from 5.6 - 6.2 tops.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Ok I've concluded your right about the black being plastic, there are fine scratches on the bottom of the bucket. But as far as mixing improperly, I cant even get 10g to mix into 2l, it's hard to see in the pic but after stirring for 15 minutes I give up. This is rediculous, lol it would take me all night stirring, well that is if it would totally dissolve even a little bit. I think I will try to put a little at a time under the scope and see if I can see the same crystallization dry.

I'll post another pic in an hour of strainging it out again, if it hasn't disolved totally (it is mostly disolved) by then, it aint going to. IMHO The question is what is it?
 
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Capulator

Capulator

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I get a little sediment too. barely any. Its fine. I use hot tap to mix because its easy. Jacks is designed for use with tap water. If you use RO then you need to use a little bit of MOST to compensate.

All in all I think you are over reacting. Hopefully you did not send them that last pic. I also think telling them you will go to the forums is a little inappropriate. They are super helpful. If they can't tell you what is wrong, I dont think anybody can. This is a commercial product. We're talking HUGE operations of food for the masses. They can't discuss yoru particular plant, but they will help you if you arent specific.

Mayeb the deficiencies you are chasing are something else, or maybe you are lacking enough micros.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Trichomefan, thanks and I can live with that, my issues may have verry well been an offgas issue with a tent. But it throws me off when Jr peters doesn't fess up, instead they say "oh no, it's totally soluble, we have people doing high pressure ero and that would plog up their systems. Hell my veg is exploding so that makes sense, I don't really care about a few granules, it's clean at least. The problem is making me think ive got impurities like some stupid ass disgruntled employee dropped something in my mix and shipped it off lol. Thanks you don't know how much better I feel now.

I still wonder what it is, perhaps a silica? it has to be sharp to shave such fine plastic shavings.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Thanks Capulator, I do use most .2 g pr 20 gal, they were real helpful with that. Yeah after sending the email out and re reading it I did see how it could be taken that way, but I did say they were great people and that wasn't my motivation. The point IS they say it is totally soluble, they are a business, Mcdonalds feeds the masses too, no offense. A business shouldn't make me think I have a problem when all the gal needs to say is, Yeah you might get some residuals, dont worry. But I bet that came about because someone who got their shit clogged up running a real advanced system asked them if it was due to shit that is like diamonds lol..

They have been good to me previously and recommended most, I bought it.. I am comforted now hearing this feedback and that I made the right decision asking all of you, instead of waiting to hear "no other customers don't report that" It's something your doing. I ho pe they can put themselves in my shoes and realize I just went through a bunch of work I didn't have to do. Why because they didn't fess up to something I really believe they have to know.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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"Hopefully you did not send them that last pic" I just about shit myself, lol no I didn't, wheeew.. lol I kept thinking why not? lol U know the funny thing too is when I first posted this I had to edit my name out lol.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I get the bit of granular undissolved Jack's in the bottom of my rez. I use hot RO to mix in and still same thing. So far it hasn't hurt a thing. Plants are just happy. I wash the rez, and repeat. I also use Zone at a rate of 1-2ml per gal. It is the first thing in the mix. My batches are nice and stable. I am drain to waste, and get a week on a 100gal rez of solution. PH goes up from 5.6 - 6.2 tops.

Thanks for the tip, and Cap Ive lurked a few of your threads, much respect.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Unless someone can identify those crystals for shit's and giggles I got what I need out of this thread, thanks.
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

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To be clear, you are mixing the Jack's formula only, and not adding Calcium Nitrate? Did you try to mix it in a clear glass jug or something like 5grams in 2 Liters, would that still leave partial insoluble s behind?
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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To be clear, you are mixing the Jack's formula only, and not adding Calcium Nitrate? Did you try to mix it in a clear glass jug or something like 5grams in 2 Liters, would that still leave partial insoluble s behind?


Correct No calcium snow from a handshake, nothing but jacks 5-12-26 and distilled, post #5 shows residuals with 5gr in glass 2L,waited hours and it still was there and tough as shit too like a crystal, I'm thinking silica, to cut such fine shavings of plastic. Quantril was correct about the black squiggly being plastic from the bucket, the scratches are real fine from manual stirring and stirring and stirring lol. Still no word back from Jr peters, im not stressing though, so nobody ever asked what the residuals in this solution are?

I find that hard to believe if others experienced residuals in a totally soluble mix that with all the controversial stuff we hear not being labeled in nutes, someone would have asked them. Any idea what the crystals are? Im thinking some kind of silica, it can't be a precipitate IMO i've demonstrated "i think" that ive covered all the bases. Multiple water sources, multiple containers mixing in, multiple calibrated measuring, multiple dilutions way way under what they state. Im going to scope the powder and see if I can see similar structures tonight, photo, isolate them, then add them to h20 and see if they mix or fall. .
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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almost all salts with crystalline structure easily dissolve in 25ml ro in a shot glass, held with tweezers and stirred. There are a lot of crystalline structures, I could guess (should have noted) there were 50 tests with only 1 that did not dissolve, and each test was in a new 25ml h2o. So this is just a practical test to see how many do not dissolve, for the sheer number of look alike s, it's my guess that the few that don't just happen to dislolve have some characteristic to them that prevent them, but do look the same as most that dissolve, but im no expert on this stuff.

Ive taken a few photos, it's really pretty stuff at 150x actually, I'll post the first pic showing 3 crystals that did not dissolve. One crystal was from tonight the Square one, and the other two from yesterday in the stocking, I wanted to see if it would melt in fresh 25ml ro. They didn't. The next photo is the square one before dissolve attempt and then after. I think I recall reading that if things that precipitate can be added directly if there is massive water amounts like in water treatment facilities. I was also thinking along the lines that the mix is made for massive water reseviours and perhaps it did have a different, much higher dissolubility due to some extreme volume factors, but that's just speculation and i'm no expert.

One property that the the powder concentrate has is, it heats water. Perhaps when added to large volumes of h2o in large scale plants it dissipates the heat quickly, but I think JR peters suggests warming the h2o anyway , i'll check, it may just be something I read on a thread of one of you guys. I better get these pics up i'm beginning to not function so well. I'll explain the photos tomorrow.
 
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azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I get the bit of granular undissolved Jack's in the bottom of my rez. I use hot RO to mix in and still same thing. So far it hasn't hurt a thing. Plants are just happy. I wash the rez, and repeat. I also use Zone at a rate of 1-2ml per gal. It is the first thing in the mix. My batches are nice and stable. I am drain to waste, and get a week on a 100gal rez of solution. PH goes up from 5.6 - 6.2 tops.

I wrote "but I think JR peters suggests warming the h2o anyway , i'll check, it may just be something I read on a thread of one of you guys." Talk about short term memory loss. lol
 
budboy299

budboy299

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I get the metallic stuff too.
This batch I even heated the water in a glass bowl to near boiling. Still had a tiny fraction of metallic solids after 2 hrs. I honestly don't think its a problem as it has done this to me for the last 6 months and no ill effects. Is puzzling though. Sometimes things like potash etc that are mined, even if refined will have a tiny trace bit of impurities. I think that is what we are seeing.
I used to mix from individual salts and had this happen then as well...so may be the refining process is far from perfect
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I get the metallic stuff too.
This batch I even heated the water in a glass bowl to near boiling. Still had a tiny fraction of metallic solids after 2 hrs. I honestly don't think its a problem as it has done this to me for the last 6 months and no ill effects. Is puzzling though. Sometimes things like potash etc that are mined, even if refined will have a tiny trace bit of impurities. I think that is what we are seeing.
I used to mix from individual salts and had this happen then as well...so may be the refining process is far from perfect

I thought they were metallic as well as first, but after glassing them i see they are crystaline structures, really pure, that when hydrated flash, but do not dissolve. I'll show two here 1 dissolves the other doesn't and you can tell the one that didn't after hydration still has a bit more reflection because it itsn't totally dry yet..

I'd agree with you on the refining process however keep in mind this is suppose to be 100% soluble. I'll post below my email sent today to Dr. Peters. Be careful heating nutes up to hot, i'd have to pull up some research but i do recall some potential health hazards if some components get to hot. Perhaps someone could chime in on that one.
 
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azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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Still haven't heard back from Dr. Peters of whom I was referred to correspond with at Jr Peters, this is an email I sent out today;


Hello Dr. Peters, I hope you are having a wonderful day.

I wrote you previously a few days ago on the 16th and 15th I believe, about a problem I was having with something in the 5-12-26 that does not dissolve, and wanted to give you an update. I'm attempting to send 4 photos this time, one crystalline structure that dissolves quickly, and the second that did not dissolve in a fresh ro volume as the one that did dissolve.


The black squiggly stuff I spoke of, I have determined is plastic from the manual mixing, shaved by undissolved crystals as another grower has suggested. I have consulted with a few small batch users of 5-12-26 and those that replied who use it with success and praise, do report residuals as well with no adverse effects to their crops reported, but cannot offer what it is or why it does not dissolve totally. I am now reassured I am not the only one, or something I am causing. I do not believe at this point that this mix to be the cause of problems to plant health of Mullen I experienced, and were effects due to something else such as a tent offgas issue.


However nobody can say what those crystals are, and with controversial things that have been discovered in nutrients (not saying I think these are) I’m surprised nobody has asked what it is, and why it isn’t soluble, or what makes it insoluble with proper mixing, or just being informed it’s normal, if you could please provide me a link to discussions if I have missed anything that has previously been addressed.

I did take more photos at 150x and it appears to me, (again im no professional) that the few crystalline structures that do not dissolve look the same as the vast majority that do.

After re hydrating 1 crystal that did not dissolve previously in 25ml ro (held with tweezers and stirred), it did not dissolve, where as the vast majority taken from the powder concentrate do very quickly. I did that to see if perhaps it was a dilution problem, I kept thinking of lyn stating ½ tsp in maximum solubility, and thought volume of h20 of small batches had something to do with it... My belief at this point is the same crystalline structures that do dissolve are the same as the ones that don’t but for some reason just do not disolve? Again I have no clue about this stuff so It’s just my applying methodology which may be flawed.

I know this mix has a property of heating h2o, So I was also thinking along the lines that perhaps these mixes are made for such large applications that adding to huge tanks the water in such massive amounts draws away the heat and perhaps that is an issue.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.
 
Savage Henry

Savage Henry

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Fwiw I used to have problems with the jacks dissolving fully but then I got a paint stirrer for my drill and no more issues.
 
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