Let's Talk No Till - Open Discussions - All Input Welcome

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Organikz

Organikz

I wanted to kick this off. I don't know if there have been in depth no-till discussions but I'd like to freshen up and see some pics of your set-ups and what your methods are such as feed schedules, amendments, beneficial applications, etc. I will share mine when I get off work but i will share a picture of my 150g no till raised bed. Only on it's first cycle so she's still a little delicate but stable enough sitting at 6.5-7pH at all times. I will still be needing inoculants and teas for a couple cycles.

Here's my bed. I will more that likely end up with a couple more 3x3 geopots soon enough. As of now I'm running skywalker kush, mazar i shariff x white rhino, and afghan cow. I ran coots mix with some left over supersoil which i don't recommend to anyone unless you give a couple weeks to cook. 2" layer of super compost over that and a 1 1/2" layer of organic alfalfa hay. Be careful using alfalfa hay. Try not to bury any. Also reduce your compost teas and feedings a bit if you run this stuff. It's hot!!!

I am by no mean no expert in no till. I have done much research but we all know true expertise comes from getting your hands dirty. This is why I'm curious about other ideas. I am open minded and understand all methods work to each person's needs.

1495333375005888464140-jpg.702404


Here are some of my personal notes collected from posts made by clackamas coot at grass city forums. I have to give credit to those guys. I love how coot makes you realize it's silly to over complicate things and he brings you back to earth and most things we do are not necessary. They're overlapping and redundant.

NOTES:


Base soil mix:

Equal parts:
CSPM (Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss)
Aeration (Pumice/Lava rock)
Compost - Malibus B/U is an excellent choice if it is available in your area.

Amended per cuF with:
1/2 - 1 cup Neem or Karanja meal
1/2 - 1 cup Kelp meal
1/2 - 1 cup Crab/Crustacean meal
1 cup MBP (Malted Barley Powder)

1/2 cup Gypsum (nice sulphur source)
4-6 cups Basalt dust
6-8 cups Biochar

***Small handful of worms per container***




Amending Between Cycles:

MountainOrganics said:

I've continued with my post harvest ritual at the beginning of each cycle which includes ensuring a solid mulch layer consisting mainly of all the leaves and stems from harvest, a sprinkling of neem (Karanja meal actually), kelp and MBP and a sprinkling of some sort of cover crop type seed which is usually fenugreek or Crimson clover (I just did a cycle with chia and lo and behold some flowered and produced seed!) - about 1/4 cup of each typically. The MBP is a weekly/biweekly addition anyways and the neem/kelp is just at the start of the cycle and likely once more by early flower. You could say neem/kelp is topdressed about every 8 weeks.

As far as vermicompost is concerned there is no outside vermicompost or compost that is added to the soil - that process takes place directly in the containers via decomposition of the mulch layer and topdressed inputs (breaks down into compost, essentially) and then the worms have at it processing it and depositing their castings throughout your soil. Pretty neat right?! I think so anyways!



WATERING SCHEDULE:

MountainOrganics said:

Here’s an example of a tried and true watering schedule (because I personally used it for years) to use from day 1 to ensure your plants are being pushed to ‘peak health’ and expressing their full ‘genetic potential.’:

Day 1 Plain water
Day 2 No watering
Day 3 MBP top-dress watered in with Aloe/Fulvic/Silica (agsil or your silica source of choice)
Day 4 No watering
Day 5 Plain water
Day 6 Neem/Kelp tea
Day 7 No watering
Day 8 Plain water
Day 9 No watering
Day 10 Coconut Water
Day 11 No watering

REPEAT - Beginning to end, no changes needed for various stages of growth, simple enough right?

Now for al the reasons previously stated your soil is becoming richer and richer as the water and nutrient retaining ability of your soil improves over time. By the 3rd cycle the plants may already be showing signs that you could back off on the above watering schedule and that can be done any number of ways to best suit your situation. For example, use half the amount of neem/kelp tea and coconut water. Add a couple extra days of plain water in between 'feedings', and so on.

As an observant gardener you should be able to notice plants performing equally as well even though you are using less inputs and in the same way you can tell if perhaps you backed off too much from time to time - in this way you can find the "sweet spot" for your garden and when that clicks with you it is very easy from then on to know what your soil needs.

Here's an example of a watering schedule a couple or few years into established no-till gardens (it happens to be my current routine as well):

- Plain water every other day, beginning to end
- MBP top-dress every 10-12 days watered with aloe/fulvic/silica



Neem Kelp Tea:

1/2 cup neem seem meal with 1/4 cup kelp meal bubbled in 5 gal water for 24hrs

I keep the cloth bags worms are shipped in and use those to put whatever I'm bubbling in so it stays contained.

To this finished tea before watering I'll add powdered aloe at 1/4tsp per gal and fulpower fulvic acid at 10ml per gal.

For new soils or soils that are lacking this can and should be used at half to full strength and as often as once weekly, maybe alternating with an alfalfa/kelp tea at the same amount.

I dilute the 5gal tea to whatever I need and that's more often than not 20gal water.

Now let's go make a tea!




Malted Corn instead of Coconut Water:


AgnesDawgz said:

So do you think the same topdressing method would work well with corn? Do you think it would be beneficial to use a mixture of corn and barley for a wider enzyme profile? If so it might be nice to use it that way and drop the expensive coconut water. Maybe I could just topdress with a barley/corn blend and alternate watering between a aloe, fulvic, silica mix and just plain water?

If we were at Instagram I could send you to a feed where they have began using malted non-GMO organic corn mixed 1:1 with malted barley. I assume you're wanting the benefit of the cytokinin Zeatine which is responsible for lateral growth, in part.

I've been using corn for a bit longer, again as a top-dress. Though I've been alternating week by week. Figure out what's best for your situation and schedule. There are a couple of products in the pipeline with Clackamas Coot as part of the product name, Gnarly Barley and A Maize Zing Malt. We found an artisan malt operation that will do less than 10,000 lb. runs. I want to enter this deal slowly and use investor's money and not mine.

In the meantime, here's a source for your malted corn - Grouse Malting in Colorado. As always compare quality, pricing and the usual. Not a recommendation per se but more of a lead. Having said that I've been more than satisfied with the quality, service and pricing.

Malted Barely Application Rate:

MountainOrganics said:

The range of "ok to use" appears to be rather large but you can use this as a basis and adjust as needed to your container size.

1/4-1/2 cup per 20 gal container. 1-2 cups per 45gal.

in general 1/4 cup per plant, for example if you're in large beds.

I've basically mulched with MBP with only positive signs. as in 2 cups in a 5gal bucket.



INTEGRATED PEST MANAGMENT (IPM)
(several recipes inside the quote)

MountainOrganics said:

Nearly everything we utilize in NTG doubles up as a form of pest prevention / IPM and if it's main use IPM it also doubles as a 'nutrition' source.

Aloe vera is nutrient accumulating plant containing the full range of elements along with enzymes, hormones, rooting compounds & salicylic acid, contributing to a plants natural pest resistancy (SAR).

Neem is a powerful fungicide/pesticide while also being high in nutrients and excellent soil building qualities.

Crab/crustacean meal is high in chitin - this will strengthen cell walls for example which is all a part of making our plants an unattractive target for pests - but the enzyme chitinase is needed to break this down into a plant soluble form. While chitinase is naturally present in your soil malted barley/grains is high in chitinase, among many other enzymes, thus ensuring a more than sufficient amount is present and really kickstarts the process which all aids in pest resistance and of course overall plant health. Adding fulvic acid to the equation further enhances the process (and many others), as Dr. Faust of BioAg has stated: enzymes are the catalysts for life and fulvic acid is the catalyst for catalysts.

The above is a just a few examples of what I hope will show that healthy and naturally pest resistant plants is simply a byproduct of this style of gardening and the inputs used. With healthy plants and a healthy, rich & diverse soil life utilizing these powerful natural compounds (such as neem/karanja & aloe etc) the act of IPM as foliar sprays really becomes just a preventative measure, while still important and otherwise necessary, to ensure a thriving garden and prevent that unsuspecting attack and of course further creating a less than appealing environment for pests.

With all that said, there isn't much left to foliar applications (LOL!) and for anyone expecting something new and fancy or overcomplicated to the point of silliness, well you'll be quite disappointed.

Under the scope of simplifying and streamlining this process I made a point for over 2 years to quite literally only apply one type of foliar spray and to cease any type of spraying past week one in flower. The results? Better than my wildest dreams, absolutely stunned at the simple effectiveness.

Per Gallon
1 TBSP organic Karanja oil (or neem)
emulsified in 1tsp liquid concentrate agSil
1/4 tsp organic 200x aloe vera powder

heat a quart of water or whatever so that it is warm to the touch and in a mason jar you already have your oil and silica mixed together to a creamy yellow consistency. Pour the warm water in and close the jar, shaking the hell out of it. The aloe can be included in here as well or drop it in the water in your sprayer then add the warm water solution and shake your sprayer again before applying. Giving it a good shake every now and then while applying will ensure any little bits of separation stay suspended and mixed into the water.

I apply this from a couple days after transplant as small rooted cuttings.
View attachment 2133491

Until week 1 of flower, whichever day that happens to land on.
View attachment 2133503

And that is it! Years later there continues to be NO reason to need or want to spray during flowering.

If one is so inclined, for maybe an added layer of protection, you can add any number of essential oils to the karanja oil foliar, if anything it smells nice right? LOL! I will add 20 drops total of whatever EO at the same time you emulsify your karanja oil. I like Holy Basil, peppermint, lavender in any combination totaling 20 drops. That is on the uber safe side so no worries about burning plants at that rate. Also recommended is to add fulvic acid along with your karanja oil/aloe/silica - I typically don't, but it's always a good thing!

If you do have a need or desire to spray in flowering a good all around base foliar for plant health and to 'knock off' unwanted pests is aloe/fulvic/silica and this is good to spray up until the end.

Fenugreek is a powerful fungicide. Sprout 2 TBSP seeds and puree/dilute to 1 gallon of water - add aloe/fulvic/silica and this can be sprayed in flower.

Cilantro is a great pesticide and I've had success testing it against mites. Take 1 cup of chopped ORGANIC cilantro and puree and soak in 1gal of water for 24 hours. This is now a concentrate and can be strained & diluted at 1 cup to 1 gallon of water, add aloe/fulvic/silica as well.

The same recipe above can be used with any number of herbs including mints (peppermint & spearmint being the go to mints), lavender, nettles, rosemary and many more. With rosemary you might want to cut the amount way down and with all of these especially in flower please apply on a test plant and after 24-48 hours apply to the rest of the garden.

I have never had any issues with the any of the above burning plants etc.

Again just to reiterate. I veg for 4-5 weeks and try to religiously apply the base karanja oil foliar every 7-10 days for a total of 3-4 applications per veg/flower cycle, that's it!

Eventually when you become very in touch (I kinda hate saying that) with your garden/plants/soil you will know when and if eradication of a pest is necessary. There is nothing wrong with allowing a natural balance to occur between pests, beneficials and the plants SAR. This is not a popular topic in the cannabis industry, but I think it's important in this paradigm to state that total annihilation does not always have to be the goal.

What is a large reason for plants to create secondary plant metabolites (terpenes, terpenoids, ketones, cannabinoids etc)? What is a plants response to a pest attack?
clip_image001.png
If there is a natural balance then there is not an issue.
View attachment 2133520

OMG I HAS SPIDER MITES!

jerry111165 said:

Being able to successfully eradicate Spider Mites takes persistence. There are many products available these days but as organic gardeners we are limited because we don't want to use harmful chemicals on our plants. That's ok though - with a few different organic items in our arsenal we can be successful.


One of the most commonly used and most effective items in our IPM toolbox is COLD PRESSED ORGANIC NEEM OIL. I put this in bold because there are many neem products and knockoffs out there. Your best bet is actual, simple cold pressed and unadulterated organic neem. Neem Tree Farms and Neem Resource Ahimsa brands are examples of what I'm referring to.


Neem oil will not mix readily with water to be able to spray it. It NEEDS to be emulsified, ie: broken down to a point where it can mix with water. Think about what happens when you add a single drop of dish soap to a greasy pan in your sinkful of dishes.


You can simply use a few drops of dish detergent t achieve this. Most organic gardeners will want to use an organic dish soap such as is made by Dr Bronners, or similar. Many folks are also now using a silica product, whether it be a hydro store product like Rhino Blast or Dyna Gro ProTekt. I use a little pinchful of concentrate silica powder.


The single trick to beating mites is to break the egg cycle. The problem that most folks run into is that they will spray their plants, kill the mites and then in a few days the damn eggs that were attached to the underside of the leaves hatch! You're back to square one. Mites all over again.


You must take your time and spray well, making sure not to miss a single leaf. Not one! Just a couple of mites will repopulate your plants very quickly.


Most importantly, you MUST REPEAT. The general consensus it to spray every 3 days but if I see a mite, that scares the hell out of me. I know the damage they can cause. I will spray every two days for several weeks - I don't want to take chances with them returning. I have also sprayed every single day for several weeks to ensure complete eradication. IMO, this is the best way.


What about flowering plants?? This is a tough one and is a real issue. Nobody wants to spray their flowers - we don't want to ruin them, of course.


I've discovered that very low amounts of organic neem oil can be very effective if sprayed daily during an infestation. I'm talking a half a teaspoon per gallon, and even less. Neem
Oil is strong stuff and it doesn't take as much as many think to be effective. I have sprayed up until there is around 3 weeks left of flower with very low amounts of neem effectively. Hey, it's that or the mites take over. Take your pick. I choose eradication.


There are also other very effective products that we can discuss of course. Neem is only one.


Peace,


J



Mulch:


MountainOrganics said:

if this is our first cycle with your no till recipe and dont have trimmings and stalks to compost for use as multch, would we just use wheat straw or something as a multch?

also..... this is kinda a silly question...... top dressings under the multch correct?

respect and many blessings to you bluejay and coots and the whole no till fam

Straw is an excellent choice and a good one to use in general. Other great options are your nutrient accumulating plants such as comfrey, nettles, yarrow, dandelion, horsetail (equisetum), excess herbs (mints, basils etc) when you cut the back. Many options for mulch - that salad or bag of lettuce that's a little too far gone to eat? Mulch it! Compost it! Whatever, it all turns into the same thing in the end anyways.

I do not disturb the mulch layer, other than to take the occasional picture for the mulch-porn addicts around here LOL, just sprinkle your topdress around evenly and water it in, done deal!
 
Underthesun

Underthesun

Seems like you get way more in depth than me, and that is cool...I wish I had the time. I decided to do no till becuase of the simplicity of it and less time needed on my end. I grow fruit and vegetable as well, so incorporating this method into all my gardening has just made things way easier. Not to mention the quality, and I'm just a beginner too. I'm on my third year doing no till, but I redid my soil after my first year, so really on year number 2 with this same soil, excited to see the outcome after a year of having the little bugs do their thing. Miss a watering or a tea, no big deal, things still look good.

My setup routine:
I followed the coots soil recipe off of build-a-soil. I used my own homemade worm casting and compost, noting Coots saying your homemade stuff will be better than 99% of anything out there.

I use raised beds from 40 gallon to almost 300. The worms survived the winter that ended up in my beds from the compost. I live in the hills in CO too, so cold. But in a greenhouse things probably warmes up nice in there during the day. Having living worms in my beds, my beds basically became worm beds. I pull a mulch layer back and there are lots of worms there feasting. I now have like a 3" or more layer of worm castings on top just from them over wintering in there.

I top dressed with the suggested application rate from Build-a-Soils page, for what they suggest adding every year. Kelp meal, fish meal, crab meal, neem seed meal, gypsum. I just scratch this into the first few inched of soil. Then I plan the cover crops, a clover blend from Build-a-Soil. Then add a thin layer of straw to get the cover crops going. I do this in March. I keep it watered as needed.

I start my seeds anywhere from April 20 to the end of May. I don't want my plants outgrowing my small greenhouse. I plant some directly in the beds and some in small containers. Small containers seem to work best so far, as I have lots of worms and critters that seems to move the seedlings around...so once they have some established roots after a week or two in the containers, I'll plant in the beds. I have just been cutting down my cover crops with scissors and may till them in...see how I feel, again I'm not stressing about it.

I plant a few seeds in each bed, removing males when they show and keeping one or two females in each bed.

I give compost teas every other watering veg through flower, or try to...sometimes go a few weeks without them, no big deal with as many worms are in my soil. Teas, for every 5 gallons, 2 cups castings, 1/2 cup molasses...bubble with requires air pressure (don't skimp on pump) for 24-48 hours. Simple.

I used to use rain water and creek water, but all my worm castings seem to clean up my well water just fine leaving me with a super smooth smoke. No more need to collect water.

Mid season I'll top dress with some more castings if needed and some Alphalpha meal. Early flower, like early August I'll top dress with more kelp meal and castings.

I keep on top of the bugs or try to. Thrips always show up. I sulfur burn a couple times durimg the season. I rotate neem oil, azamax, and Monterey (Spinosad) spraying about every two weeks, more spinosad when thrips show up. I use BTi in my water every week or two to keep the dungus gnats at bay, they like my warm moist compost layer.

Harvest when ready, no flush needed. What is there to flush? Smoothest smoke around.

Lay a fat layer of straw on the beds and wait until next year. So easy.
 
Underthesun

Underthesun

I suppose the thing I'm missing that all the great growers on here say you need is a soil test. But after thinking many times about getting one I have decided, that I would not just need one but many...and many soil tests are expensive. My thought process.

I have three raised beds, I would need to test each bed. I use my own homemade compost from kitchen and garden scraps, it has to be variable in nutrients depending on what goes in it. I use my compost all through the growing season. I could get my compost tested, but what about a month later when I go back to the bin or a different compost bin, get it tested again? Maybe if I was a professional grower and entering cups, but I'm just growing for me and don't see how it would benefit me that much without dropping lots of cash for lots of tests, and I started composting to keep from spending money. My two cents on that...but I do see value in soil tests, just not for me.
 
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Organikz

Organikz

Seems like you get way more in depth than me, and that is cool...I wish I had the time. I decided to do no till becuase of the simplicity of it and less time needed on my end. I grow fruit and vegetable as well, so incorporating this method into all my gardening has just made things way easier. Not to mention the quality, and I'm just a beginner too. I'm on my third year doing no till, but I redid my soil after my first year, so really on year number 2 with this same soil, excited to see the outcome after a year of having the little bugs do their thing. Miss a watering or a tea, no big deal, things still look good.

My setup routine:
I followed the coots soil recipe off of build-a-soil. I used my own homemade worm casting and compost, noting Coots saying your homemade stuff will be better than 99% of anything out there.

I use raised beds from 40 gallon to almost 300. The worms survived the winter that ended up in my beds from the compost. I live in the hills in CO too, so cold. But in a greenhouse things probably warmes up nice in there during the day. Having living worms in my beds, my beds basically became worm beds. I pull a mulch layer back and there are lots of worms there feasting. I now have like a 3" or more layer of worm castings on top just from them over wintering in there.

I top dressed with the suggested application rate from Build-a-Soils page, for what they suggest adding every year. Kelp meal, fish meal, crab meal, neem seed meal, gypsum. I just scratch this into the first few inched of soil. Then I plan the cover crops, a clover blend from Build-a-Soil. Then add a thin layer of straw to get the cover crops going. I do this in March. I keep it watered as needed.

I start my seeds anywhere from April 20 to the end of May. I don't want my plants outgrowing my small greenhouse. I plant some directly in the beds and some in small containers. Small containers seem to work best so far, as I have lots of worms and critters that seems to move the seedlings around...so once they have some established roots after a week or two in the containers, I'll plant in the beds. I have just been cutting down my cover crops with scissors and may till them in...see how I feel, again I'm not stressing about it.

I plant a few seeds in each bed, removing males when they show and keeping one or two females in each bed.

I give compost teas every other watering veg through flower, or try to...sometimes go a few weeks without them, no big deal with as many worms are in my soil. Teas, for every 5 gallons, 2 cups castings, 1/2 cup molasses...bubble with requires air pressure (don't skimp on pump) for 24-48 hours. Simple.

I used to use rain water and creek water, but all my worm castings seem to clean up my well water just fine leaving me with a super smooth smoke. No more need to collect water.

Mid season I'll top dress with some more castings if needed and some Alphalpha meal. Early flower, like early August I'll top dress with more kelp meal and castings.

I keep on top of the bugs or try to. Thrips always show up. I sulfur burn a couple times durimg the season. I rotate neem oil, azamax, and Monterey (Spinosad) spraying about every two weeks, more spinosad when thrips show up. I use BTi in my water every week or two to keep the dungus gnats at bay, they like my warm moist compost layer.

Harvest when ready, no flush needed. What is there to flush? Smoothest smoke around.

Lay a fat layer of straw on the beds and wait until next year. So easy.
Lol. Those are reference notes. Most was written by Clackamas coot. He basically wrote the handbook on no till applications to cannabis cultivation. I wish I came up with all that.
 
Organikz

Organikz

I suppose the thing I'm missing that all the great growers on here say you need is a soil test. But after thinking many times about getting one I have decided, that I would not just need one but many...and many soil tests are expensive. My thought process.

I have three raised beds, I would need to test each bed. I use my own homemade compost from kitchen and garden scraps, it has to be variable in nutrients depending on what goes in it. I use my compost all through the growing season. I could get my compost tested, but what about a month later when I go back to the bin or a different compost bin, get it tested again? Maybe if I was a professional grower and entering cups, but I'm just growing for me and don't see how it would benefit me that much without dropping lots of cash for lots of tests, and I started composting to keep from spending money. My two cents on that...but I do see value in soil tests, just not for me.
I don't understand...as long as you follow the recipe what would be lacking. It's not an exact science. Worm castings. The job is to basically keep all the nutrients in there via mulching and nitrogen fixers. As long as you sprinkle 1 cup per gallon EWC along with a kelp and neem seed meal I'm sure you're fine.
 
Organikz

Organikz

I finally got a chance to sit down and read your whole rotation. You have very well developed soil so I'm thinking you can get away with minimum inputs.

I was convinced of the "IPM rotation". After reading what Coots writes and after experiencing what happens when flower comes and neem isn't an option I realize it's the silver bullet. Neem contains the active ingredient in azamax along with 200 other limoids. The mites cannot build an immunity to 200+ chemicals that the plants are naturally altering different levels of concentrations to prevent immunity. Neem will be my weekly spray up until I see bud sets. That's equivalent to rotating 100 products. That's my 2 cents anyway.

Quality neem oil is key. I use dynagro and neem resource karanja cake for top dress. It's also loaded with nutrients.

What you're doing definitely works but I've learned it's overkill.
 
T

TRK

that's a comprehensive collection of posts you put together there Organikz, very useful all in one place

I do a similar sorta thing with my grow

however my soil is just some local bagged organic stuff I reworked over several runs re-amending it with various bits and pieces as I moved away from the kind of organics that comes in bottles. it's coco based, but includes some peat based commercial mix too, along with a bunch of compost and castings, lava, pumice, basalt and rock dust basically. These days I attempt to run it no-till, or at least as little tilling as it takes to plug my early veg pots into the big smarties. So yeah the one thing I could also benefit from is some soil testing, but for all the reasons underthesun already so eloquently explained, it's probably not on the cards. Soil tests here cost about 100 bucks for the basic elements and pH, CEC stuff. It's a ridiculous factor of living in one of the most expensive places in the world, so as long as the soil works I will continue to work it sorta thing, untested

malted barley, neem meal, kelp, rock dust (aluminosilicate kind) feature heavily. Worm castings galore, worms in the pots (15 gal), trying to get my outdoor hot composting game a bit more in order too. mulch the pots with straw, sometimes a little alfalfa that I grow myself because the local stuff costs a fortune and who knows what's in it and I have plenty of room

very occasionally something exotic like a high P guano, but we are talking in teaspoons here and this is just me clinging to the old synthetic ways basically. You know, add P for flower sorta thing. I think it probably makes little sense. Comfrey is one I have just started this year and I have some plants growing and have been feeding some leaves to the worm bins. Outdoor I do some stinging nettle too, along with basically any other accumulator plant or anything that 'might have some benefit', yarrow, dandelion, lambsquarter, any stray weeds that look at me the wrong way LOL pretty much just added to the mulch layer to break down with the straw, which smothers a cover crop of clover, buckwheat and vetch from early in the season

sometimes some tea, usually ACT or some combo of alfalfa/neem/kelp/rock dust/fish. Aloe when I have it fresh from the plant, which is maybe only a couple of teas a run at most, but if I get it in at least once in mid veg I will be satisfied if I have no choice. Never tried the 200x powder... should I? I used to do coconut water but since the fresh young stuff is not a possibility for me I don't bother anymore and see no difference in results if I am being truly honest

sometimes some FPE stuff I make myself, fish, horsetail or nettle usually. Maybe a touch of bokashi bran I also make myself, just so I know those EM type microbes are in the fray somewhere in case they could prove useful, if they don't come across right in the FPE after some long storage or whatever, I dunno. They probably both contribute to that anaerobic side of the coin and I could just leave the bokashi out

some allround organic dry fert that only comes in about a 1-1-0.5 or so but contains all the stuff you'd want in a 'super' type mix, so has all them goodies but it's usually safe for topdressing if you don't get too adventurous or have an especially sensitive pheno. I am not an extremist when it comes to using no animal inputs or anything like that so this doesn't really bother me and it helps keep things balanced as it's commercially formulated

for pest prevention indoors I introduced a fuckton of Hypoaspis Miles and some Amblyseius Cucumeris a few runs back. The Cucumeris is gone but Miles still lives in my soil to this day. The thrips problem at the time was solved overnight. Sometimes I will use neem oil indoors if there is sign of infestation, and also spinosad will get a shot if we are talking acute infestation, which never happens indoors these days and the bottle basically collects dust on the shelf, but visible to the bad guys so they know what's gonna go down if they think they are gonna get frisky again haha... I reckon the neem meal as top dress helps a lot anyway

Outdoors I have been using cold pressed neem... sometimes some soap, bronners in eucalyptus, peppermint or lavender flavour. Clove, cinnamon, rosemary, palmarosa essential oils in a mix I make myself that amounts to about a 2% mixture with total neem, other oils and emulsifier (rimulgan) all together. Sprayed at sundown it doesn't damage a single leaf. I agree the high quality of oils is an important factor, as is the phototoxicity factor of many essential oils when sprayed in strong light. I did it once with orange oil indoors at 30ml a gal, even a half hour of HPS light nuked the plants badly and they were all burnt half to death the next day at lights on, looking like they took an acid bath, the whole room smelt of bad hay... major bummer, but I learned not to just take advice without doing my own research and I managed to get the run finished as flower had not began yet, although yields must've surely been affected

I would love to do a legit Cootz mix from start to finish with all the recommended amendments, but much of the stuff required is not available locally to me, like crab meal etc, forget about it. So yeah sending kilos of this and that shit international from amazon is not really organic anymore is it? All just my personal opinion, I think local sourcing as much as possible is a pretty serious consideration if you wanna do the no bullshit organic ways

I have a problem with being a bit gunshy on the topdressing and always leaning to not using enough, which means sometimes my girls look hungry a little prematurely towards the end. That's just my own scaredy-catness I guess and in time I will grow out of it, having seen guys throwing down armfuls of shit and not doing any harm in recent times. I don't really do it all on a fixed schedule in any case, and basically many of the things are just sorta when I think of it, and the main focus is the malted barley/neem/kelp which is regular like probably weekly for the MB and the kelp, maybe longer for the neem

damn I wrote a book there haha

good info anyway Organikz and a pleasure to be part of the conversation dude

cheers
 
EventHorizan

EventHorizan

I wanted to kick this off. I don't know if there have been in depth no-till discussions but I'd like to freshen up and see some pics of your set-ups and what your methods are such as feed schedules, amendments, beneficial applications, etc. I will share mine when I get off work but i will share a picture of my 150g no till raised bed. Only on it's first cycle so she's still a little delicate but stable enough sitting at 6.5-7pH at all times. I will still be needing inoculants and teas for a couple cycles.

Here's my bed. I will more that likely end up with a couple more 3x3 geopots soon enough. As of now I'm running skywalker kush, mazar i shariff x white rhino, and afghan cow. I ran coots mix with some left over supersoil which i don't recommend to anyone unless you give a couple weeks to cook. 2" layer of super compost over that and a 1 1/2" layer of organic alfalfa hay. Be careful using alfalfa hay. Try not to bury any. Also reduce your compost teas and feedings a bit if you run this stuff. It's hot!!!

I am by no mean no expert in no till. I have done much research but we all know true expertise comes from getting your hands dirty. This is why I'm curious about other ideas. I am open minded and understand all methods work to each person's needs.

1495333375005888464140-jpg.702404


Here are some of my personal notes collected from posts made by clackamas coot at grass city forums. I have to give credit to those guys. I love how coot makes you realize it's silly to over complicate things and he brings you back to earth and most things we do are not necessary. They're overlapping and redundant.

NOTES:


Base soil mix:

Equal parts:
CSPM (Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss)
Aeration (Pumice/Lava rock)
Compost - Malibus B/U is an excellent choice if it is available in your area.

Amended per cuF with:
1/2 - 1 cup Neem or Karanja meal
1/2 - 1 cup Kelp meal
1/2 - 1 cup Crab/Crustacean meal
1 cup MBP (Malted Barley Powder)

1/2 cup Gypsum (nice sulphur source)
4-6 cups Basalt dust
6-8 cups Biochar

***Small handful of worms per container***




Amending Between Cycles:

MountainOrganics said:

I've continued with my post harvest ritual at the beginning of each cycle which includes ensuring a solid mulch layer consisting mainly of all the leaves and stems from harvest, a sprinkling of neem (Karanja meal actually), kelp and MBP and a sprinkling of some sort of cover crop type seed which is usually fenugreek or Crimson clover (I just did a cycle with chia and lo and behold some flowered and produced seed!) - about 1/4 cup of each typically. The MBP is a weekly/biweekly addition anyways and the neem/kelp is just at the start of the cycle and likely once more by early flower. You could say neem/kelp is topdressed about every 8 weeks.

As far as vermicompost is concerned there is no outside vermicompost or compost that is added to the soil - that process takes place directly in the containers via decomposition of the mulch layer and topdressed inputs (breaks down into compost, essentially) and then the worms have at it processing it and depositing their castings throughout your soil. Pretty neat right?! I think so anyways!



WATERING SCHEDULE:

MountainOrganics said:

Here’s an example of a tried and true watering schedule (because I personally used it for years) to use from day 1 to ensure your plants are being pushed to ‘peak health’ and expressing their full ‘genetic potential.’:

Day 1 Plain water
Day 2 No watering
Day 3 MBP top-dress watered in with Aloe/Fulvic/Silica (agsil or your silica source of choice)
Day 4 No watering
Day 5 Plain water
Day 6 Neem/Kelp tea
Day 7 No watering
Day 8 Plain water
Day 9 No watering
Day 10 Coconut Water
Day 11 No watering

REPEAT - Beginning to end, no changes needed for various stages of growth, simple enough right?

Now for al the reasons previously stated your soil is becoming richer and richer as the water and nutrient retaining ability of your soil improves over time. By the 3rd cycle the plants may already be showing signs that you could back off on the above watering schedule and that can be done any number of ways to best suit your situation. For example, use half the amount of neem/kelp tea and coconut water. Add a couple extra days of plain water in between 'feedings', and so on.

As an observant gardener you should be able to notice plants performing equally as well even though you are using less inputs and in the same way you can tell if perhaps you backed off too much from time to time - in this way you can find the "sweet spot" for your garden and when that clicks with you it is very easy from then on to know what your soil needs.

Here's an example of a watering schedule a couple or few years into established no-till gardens (it happens to be my current routine as well):

- Plain water every other day, beginning to end
- MBP top-dress every 10-12 days watered with aloe/fulvic/silica



Neem Kelp Tea:

1/2 cup neem seem meal with 1/4 cup kelp meal bubbled in 5 gal water for 24hrs

I keep the cloth bags worms are shipped in and use those to put whatever I'm bubbling in so it stays contained.

To this finished tea before watering I'll add powdered aloe at 1/4tsp per gal and fulpower fulvic acid at 10ml per gal.

For new soils or soils that are lacking this can and should be used at half to full strength and as often as once weekly, maybe alternating with an alfalfa/kelp tea at the same amount.

I dilute the 5gal tea to whatever I need and that's more often than not 20gal water.

Now let's go make a tea!




Malted Corn instead of Coconut Water:


AgnesDawgz said:

So do you think the same topdressing method would work well with corn? Do you think it would be beneficial to use a mixture of corn and barley for a wider enzyme profile? If so it might be nice to use it that way and drop the expensive coconut water. Maybe I could just topdress with a barley/corn blend and alternate watering between a aloe, fulvic, silica mix and just plain water?

If we were at Instagram I could send you to a feed where they have began using malted non-GMO organic corn mixed 1:1 with malted barley. I assume you're wanting the benefit of the cytokinin Zeatine which is responsible for lateral growth, in part.

I've been using corn for a bit longer, again as a top-dress. Though I've been alternating week by week. Figure out what's best for your situation and schedule. There are a couple of products in the pipeline with Clackamas Coot as part of the product name, Gnarly Barley and A Maize Zing Malt. We found an artisan malt operation that will do less than 10,000 lb. runs. I want to enter this deal slowly and use investor's money and not mine.

In the meantime, here's a source for your malted corn - Grouse Malting in Colorado. As always compare quality, pricing and the usual. Not a recommendation per se but more of a lead. Having said that I've been more than satisfied with the quality, service and pricing.

Malted Barely Application Rate:

MountainOrganics said:

The range of "ok to use" appears to be rather large but you can use this as a basis and adjust as needed to your container size.

1/4-1/2 cup per 20 gal container. 1-2 cups per 45gal.

in general 1/4 cup per plant, for example if you're in large beds.

I've basically mulched with MBP with only positive signs. as in 2 cups in a 5gal bucket.



INTEGRATED PEST MANAGMENT (IPM)
(several recipes inside the quote)

MountainOrganics said:

Nearly everything we utilize in NTG doubles up as a form of pest prevention / IPM and if it's main use IPM it also doubles as a 'nutrition' source.

Aloe vera is nutrient accumulating plant containing the full range of elements along with enzymes, hormones, rooting compounds & salicylic acid, contributing to a plants natural pest resistancy (SAR).

Neem is a powerful fungicide/pesticide while also being high in nutrients and excellent soil building qualities.

Crab/crustacean meal is high in chitin - this will strengthen cell walls for example which is all a part of making our plants an unattractive target for pests - but the enzyme chitinase is needed to break this down into a plant soluble form. While chitinase is naturally present in your soil malted barley/grains is high in chitinase, among many other enzymes, thus ensuring a more than sufficient amount is present and really kickstarts the process which all aids in pest resistance and of course overall plant health. Adding fulvic acid to the equation further enhances the process (and many others), as Dr. Faust of BioAg has stated: enzymes are the catalysts for life and fulvic acid is the catalyst for catalysts.

The above is a just a few examples of what I hope will show that healthy and naturally pest resistant plants is simply a byproduct of this style of gardening and the inputs used. With healthy plants and a healthy, rich & diverse soil life utilizing these powerful natural compounds (such as neem/karanja & aloe etc) the act of IPM as foliar sprays really becomes just a preventative measure, while still important and otherwise necessary, to ensure a thriving garden and prevent that unsuspecting attack and of course further creating a less than appealing environment for pests.

With all that said, there isn't much left to foliar applications (LOL!) and for anyone expecting something new and fancy or overcomplicated to the point of silliness, well you'll be quite disappointed.

Under the scope of simplifying and streamlining this process I made a point for over 2 years to quite literally only apply one type of foliar spray and to cease any type of spraying past week one in flower. The results? Better than my wildest dreams, absolutely stunned at the simple effectiveness.

Per Gallon
1 TBSP organic Karanja oil (or neem)
emulsified in 1tsp liquid concentrate agSil
1/4 tsp organic 200x aloe vera powder

heat a quart of water or whatever so that it is warm to the touch and in a mason jar you already have your oil and silica mixed together to a creamy yellow consistency. Pour the warm water in and close the jar, shaking the hell out of it. The aloe can be included in here as well or drop it in the water in your sprayer then add the warm water solution and shake your sprayer again before applying. Giving it a good shake every now and then while applying will ensure any little bits of separation stay suspended and mixed into the water.

I apply this from a couple days after transplant as small rooted cuttings.
View attachment 2133491

Until week 1 of flower, whichever day that happens to land on.
View attachment 2133503

And that is it! Years later there continues to be NO reason to need or want to spray during flowering.

If one is so inclined, for maybe an added layer of protection, you can add any number of essential oils to the karanja oil foliar, if anything it smells nice right? LOL! I will add 20 drops total of whatever EO at the same time you emulsify your karanja oil. I like Holy Basil, peppermint, lavender in any combination totaling 20 drops. That is on the uber safe side so no worries about burning plants at that rate. Also recommended is to add fulvic acid along with your karanja oil/aloe/silica - I typically don't, but it's always a good thing!

If you do have a need or desire to spray in flowering a good all around base foliar for plant health and to 'knock off' unwanted pests is aloe/fulvic/silica and this is good to spray up until the end.

Fenugreek is a powerful fungicide. Sprout 2 TBSP seeds and puree/dilute to 1 gallon of water - add aloe/fulvic/silica and this can be sprayed in flower.

Cilantro is a great pesticide and I've had success testing it against mites. Take 1 cup of chopped ORGANIC cilantro and puree and soak in 1gal of water for 24 hours. This is now a concentrate and can be strained & diluted at 1 cup to 1 gallon of water, add aloe/fulvic/silica as well.

The same recipe above can be used with any number of herbs including mints (peppermint & spearmint being the go to mints), lavender, nettles, rosemary and many more. With rosemary you might want to cut the amount way down and with all of these especially in flower please apply on a test plant and after 24-48 hours apply to the rest of the garden.

I have never had any issues with the any of the above burning plants etc.

Again just to reiterate. I veg for 4-5 weeks and try to religiously apply the base karanja oil foliar every 7-10 days for a total of 3-4 applications per veg/flower cycle, that's it!

Eventually when you become very in touch (I kinda hate saying that) with your garden/plants/soil you will know when and if eradication of a pest is necessary. There is nothing wrong with allowing a natural balance to occur between pests, beneficials and the plants SAR. This is not a popular topic in the cannabis industry, but I think it's important in this paradigm to state that total annihilation does not always have to be the goal.

What is a large reason for plants to create secondary plant metabolites (terpenes, terpenoids, ketones, cannabinoids etc)? What is a plants response to a pest attack?
clip_image001.png
If there is a natural balance then there is not an issue.
View attachment 2133520

OMG I HAS SPIDER MITES!

jerry111165 said:

Being able to successfully eradicate Spider Mites takes persistence. There are many products available these days but as organic gardeners we are limited because we don't want to use harmful chemicals on our plants. That's ok though - with a few different organic items in our arsenal we can be successful.


One of the most commonly used and most effective items in our IPM toolbox is COLD PRESSED ORGANIC NEEM OIL. I put this in bold because there are many neem products and knockoffs out there. Your best bet is actual, simple cold pressed and unadulterated organic neem. Neem Tree Farms and Neem Resource Ahimsa brands are examples of what I'm referring to.


Neem oil will not mix readily with water to be able to spray it. It NEEDS to be emulsified, ie: broken down to a point where it can mix with water. Think about what happens when you add a single drop of dish soap to a greasy pan in your sinkful of dishes.


You can simply use a few drops of dish detergent t achieve this. Most organic gardeners will want to use an organic dish soap such as is made by Dr Bronners, or similar. Many folks are also now using a silica product, whether it be a hydro store product like Rhino Blast or Dyna Gro ProTekt. I use a little pinchful of concentrate silica powder.


The single trick to beating mites is to break the egg cycle. The problem that most folks run into is that they will spray their plants, kill the mites and then in a few days the damn eggs that were attached to the underside of the leaves hatch! You're back to square one. Mites all over again.


You must take your time and spray well, making sure not to miss a single leaf. Not one! Just a couple of mites will repopulate your plants very quickly.


Most importantly, you MUST REPEAT. The general consensus it to spray every 3 days but if I see a mite, that scares the hell out of me. I know the damage they can cause. I will spray every two days for several weeks - I don't want to take chances with them returning. I have also sprayed every single day for several weeks to ensure complete eradication. IMO, this is the best way.


What about flowering plants?? This is a tough one and is a real issue. Nobody wants to spray their flowers - we don't want to ruin them, of course.


I've discovered that very low amounts of organic neem oil can be very effective if sprayed daily during an infestation. I'm talking a half a teaspoon per gallon, and even less. Neem
Oil is strong stuff and it doesn't take as much as many think to be effective. I have sprayed up until there is around 3 weeks left of flower with very low amounts of neem effectively. Hey, it's that or the mites take over. Take your pick. I choose eradication.


There are also other very effective products that we can discuss of course. Neem is only one.


Peace,


J



Mulch:


MountainOrganics said:

if this is our first cycle with your no till recipe and dont have trimmings and stalks to compost for use as multch, would we just use wheat straw or something as a multch?

also..... this is kinda a silly question...... top dressings under the multch correct?

respect and many blessings to you bluejay and coots and the whole no till fam

Straw is an excellent choice and a good one to use in general. Other great options are your nutrient accumulating plants such as comfrey, nettles, yarrow, dandelion, horsetail (equisetum), excess herbs (mints, basils etc) when you cut the back. Many options for mulch - that salad or bag of lettuce that's a little too far gone to eat? Mulch it! Compost it! Whatever, it all turns into the same thing in the end anyways.

I do not disturb the mulch layer, other than to take the occasional picture for the mulch-porn addicts around here LOL, just sprinkle your topdress around evenly and water it in, done deal!
Why is there a line thru your name?
You get booted or delete your account????????
 
EventHorizan

EventHorizan

Im kidding..
Lol...
I know better than to bring my hydro ass over here.. Them organic juggalo's be trying to lynch my hydro ass talking shit on their thread...
:)
 

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