Longtime Grower Needing Help - CO2 Related

[needinghelp]

Longtime commercial grower here, 20 plus years, with a problem that no one seems to have any idea how to address/fix. At this point, I am literally willing to offer a reward for the person who can solve this riddle. Let me present as the following.

Problem: Whenever CO2 is introduced into my vegetative room, which is approximately 20x60 in size, the plants wither, become yellow, woody stems, within 48 hours of the CO2 introduction. This happens no matter where I veg in my building. i have tested vegging in multiple flowering rooms and the toxicity happens in the same time frame. When I remove CO2, the plants get better almost immediately. Also, when i move the plants to flower and flip them WITH CO2 on, the problem goes away immediately. To be clear, I could move in completely yellow plants, woody stems, etc and a week after I flip to flower, with CO2 running, it will be like it never happened, all lush green growth, etc. Just to be clear, CO2 works fine when plants are flowering. Does not work at all in veg status, whether it be gavita lights in a flower room we are using to veg or our standard veg room lighting.

I have been consulting with many growers I respect and trust and no one has seen this/heard of it, let alone have even a suggestion to fix.

Grow Composition: Vegetative Room - 56 Solistek Digital DE Hoods, with separate ballasts. Half the room is running on hortilux DE bulbs, other half growers choice metal halide bulbs. Temps: 76, humidity 60%, agrowtek controlled. Canna Coco, Canna Coco nutrients, tested recipe. 2 gallon fabric pots. Flower rooms are gavita 1000 de, standard etc. Lights are 5-6 feet off the canopy.

There is a massive prize to whoever can figure this out or even help guide us in the right direction. I appreciate everyone's help in advance, thank you.

 

[needinghelp]

Should have stated in original post, but this is CO2 from tank, not a burner. Thank You.

 

[Lord Bonkey]

First question
Where do you get your gas
Is it industrial CO2 mix for like welding ect
Or food grade?

 

[needinghelp]

First question
Where do you get your gas
Is it industrial CO2 mix for like welding ect
Or food grade?

We acquire the gas from Praxair, reputable company and I have used them for many years prior to this facility, without issue. That is an interesting question regarding the actual mix, I am actually unsure, but will found out immediately.

 

[cemchris]

Should have stated in original post, but this is CO2 from tank, not a burner. Thank You.

Shit got me there since that is the issue a bunch of us fought with burners. You at altitude?

 

[LeHerber]

I’ve had these same issues when using co2 in small spaces and it caused me to to a great deal of research on the co2 absorbing rates and claims made with that whole thing because I was instructed almost 20 years ago on growing and co2 was part of that. The small size of the room, not enough available light, co2 allowing too much h20 saturation in the air are my off handed guesses. But the theory and research co2 enriching is flawed at its core was my conclusion, especially the claims of hyper metabolism, the higher co2 concentration also needs a higher atmospheric pressure, that’s how the researchers did the studies that people use to make claims of doubling the crop. I do believe in flowering with high plant numbers in confinement exhausts the co2 levels and they can be benefited from some enriching. But for veg I just don’t think the metabolism is there. There’s lots of studies that show the plant needs to be under a pretty bright light for it to be able to do any good at all, like at least 1k. I think of it like nitrous to a car not a complete grow science like I use to. I’ve stopped using gas enrichment and everything is fine my yields are good and they flower plenty fast. Almost too fast these new strains. My new place has NG lines and I thought about giving it another whirl.
But my conclusion on this was when I set up a hydro innovation system, if you don’t know what that is look it up. It gave me the ability to completely seal the room and control all aspects of it and without fresh air using co2 and things my plants looked exactly as you described but this was a flower room.
So my guess is that your veg room can’t use the extra co2 because there just isn’t enough light energy available and there suffocating in a heavy atmosphere, or the humidity levels are too high.
But that’s my 2 cents I hope it helps.

 

[Butts4Supper]

New shop? Concert floor? Sealed room? Remember that biodome stunt from the 90's?
This is possible:

In the right conditions carbon dioxide reacts with exposed concrete to form calcium carbonate in a process called carbonatation, this sort of binds both carbon and oxygen together and becomes unusable. I've mostly ran into this in new shops with new floors that aren't 85%-100% cured yet. Hope that helps. Cheers :)

 

[Butts4Supper]

I’ve had these same issues when using co2 in small spaces and it caused me to to a great deal of research on the co2 absorbing rates and claims made with that whole thing because I was instructed almost 20 years ago on growing and co2 was part of that. The small size of the room, not enough available light, co2 allowing too much h20 saturation in the air are my off handed guesses. But the theory and research co2 enriching is flawed at its core was my conclusion, especially the claims of hyper metabolism, the higher co2 concentration also needs a higher atmospheric pressure, that’s how the researchers did the studies that people use to make claims of doubling the crop. I do believe in flowering with high plant numbers in confinement exhausts the co2 levels and they can be benefited from some enriching. But for veg I just don’t think the metabolism is there. There’s lots of studies that show the plant needs to be under a pretty bright light for it to be able to do any good at all, like at least 1k. I think of it like nitrous to a car not a complete grow science like I use to. I’ve stopped using gas enrichment and everything is fine my yields are good and they flower plenty fast. Almost too fast these new strains. My new place has NG lines and I thought about giving it another whirl.
But my conclusion on this was when I set up a hydro innovation system, if you don’t know what that is look it up. It gave me the ability to completely seal the room and control all aspects of it and without fresh air using co2 and things my plants looked exactly as you described but this was a flower room.
So my guess is that your veg room can’t use the extra co2 because there just isn’t enough light energy available and there suffocating in a heavy atmosphere, or the humidity levels are too high.
But that’s my 2 cents I hope it helps.

This is a very good avenue to pursue as well, regarding the metabolism there is a 4th factor at play along with the Co2 and light levels and humidic pressure and that's heat. Ime those 4 factors have to be ramped up in at the proper ratios in relation to each other and every room(calculations) seems to be different along with a slight variance due to strain type. Root zone temp and oxygen supplies play a roll as well as I'm sure you know. I even when as far as to run air stones in soil with the air pumps outside of the sealed room. What I've said is all pretty basic shit so forgive me if anyone who reads this knows that and I am in now way talking down to anyone here. Forgive me as well if If you've cover this base already, which you probably have.

 

[Lord Bonkey]

We acquire the gas from Praxair, reputable company and I have used them for many years prior to this facility, without issue. That is an interesting question regarding the actual mix, I am actually unsure, but will found out immediately.

Might be worth finding out if they mix it with a carrier, but if its welding gas you would think it would be inert anyway.

do you ramp it up or just go straight to full ppm?
maybe it is a shock from the rapid change in atmosphere?

I have seen what you are talking about but i dont think we ever figured it out...
I do remember when we switched to like the pepsi cannisters it did make a diffrence but i wonder if its just because it took longer to get to saturation?

 

[Butts4Supper]

I do remember when we switched to like the pepsi canisters it did make a difference but i wonder if its just because it took longer to get to saturation?

Hmmm, this makes me rethink things a little bit, I have seen weird shit happen with Co2 from yeast, not quite sure if it the same as OP "but way back when" I hatched a plan using a 1000L tote with 250L of water ph'd to 5.2 to make Co2 with yeast and inverted sugar, I built a manifold with lines running to the room. It worked but maybe too good, and of course I had never even seen a meter at that time and I started to see ALL manners of reactions, it seem like different nutrient deficiency would appear and disappear in hours. Back then there was no internet, so I had no real sources except the library, and I wasn't aware of what I was looking at that time (Co2 toxicity) I remember spending a ton of time researching yeast culture and aerosolized spores because that what I thought it was but I was wrong . But maybe the source of OP's Co2 is cut with something else.

 

[Lord Bonkey]

Longtime commercial grower here, 20 plus years, with a problem that no one seems to have any idea how to address/fix. At this point, I am literally willing to offer a reward for the person who can solve this riddle. Let me present as the following.

Problem: Whenever CO2 is introduced into my vegetative room, which is approximately 20x60 in size, the plants wither, become yellow, woody stems, within 48 hours of the CO2 introduction. This happens no matter where I veg in my building. i have tested vegging in multiple flowering rooms and the toxicity happens in the same time frame. When I remove CO2, the plants get better almost immediately. Also, when i move the plants to flower and flip them WITH CO2 on, the problem goes away immediately. To be clear, I could move in completely yellow plants, woody stems, etc and a week after I flip to flower, with CO2 running, it will be like it never happened, all lush green growth, etc. Just to be clear, CO2 works fine when plants are flowering. Does not work at all in veg status, whether it be gavita lights in a flower room we are using to veg or our standard veg room lighting.

I have been consulting with many growers I respect and trust and no one has seen this/heard of it, let alone have even a suggestion to fix.

Grow Composition: Vegetative Room - 56 Solistek Digital DE Hoods, with separate ballasts. Half the room is running on hortilux DE bulbs, other half growers choice metal halide bulbs. Temps: 76, humidity 60%, agrowtek controlled. Canna Coco, Canna Coco nutrients, tested recipe. 2 gallon fabric pots. Flower rooms are gavita 1000 de, standard etc. Lights are 5-6 feet off the canopy.

There is a massive prize to whoever can figure this out or even help guide us in the right direction. I appreciate everyone's help in advance, thank you.

so, I talked to my buddy and we did fix it and the answer for us was two part,
we ramped up to our co2 lvls and we also bought a inline heater that attached before the regulator,

so what happens is the gas come out cold af, and then expands
but the plants arent used to these levels so the carbon gets backed up in the leaves and it takes a week for the plants to ramp up there ability to process it.

by heating it up it makes it much easier to regulate in the room, and stops temp swings

hope that helps

 

[DistyDemon]

I’ve had these same issues when using co2 in small spaces and it caused me to to a great deal of research on the co2 absorbing rates and claims made with that whole thing because I was instructed almost 20 years ago on growing and co2 was part of that. The small size of the room, not enough available light, co2 allowing too much h20 saturation in the air are my off handed guesses. But the theory and research co2 enriching is flawed at its core was my conclusion, especially the claims of hyper metabolism, the higher co2 concentration also needs a higher atmospheric pressure, that’s how the researchers did the studies that people use to make claims of doubling the crop. I do believe in flowering with high plant numbers in confinement exhausts the co2 levels and they can be benefited from some enriching. But for veg I just don’t think the metabolism is there. There’s lots of studies that show the plant needs to be under a pretty bright light for it to be able to do any good at all, like at least 1k. I think of it like nitrous to a car not a complete grow science like I use to. I’ve stopped using gas enrichment and everything is fine my yields are good and they flower plenty fast. Almost too fast these new strains. My new place has NG lines and I thought about giving it another whirl.
But my conclusion on this was when I set up a hydro innovation system, if you don’t know what that is look it up. It gave me the ability to completely seal the room and control all aspects of it and without fresh air using co2 and things my plants looked exactly as you described but this was a flower room.
So my guess is that your veg room can’t use the extra co2 because there just isn’t enough light energy available and there suffocating in a heavy atmosphere, or the humidity levels are too high.
But that’s my 2 cents I hope it helps.

I ran nitrous on my 2.0l rice burner for years and years, NO issues

Been running co2 for 4 yrs, 600hps and 315cmh.
Again, zero issues.

 

[QuestForZest]

Longtime commercial grower here, 20 plus years, with a problem that no one seems to have any idea how to address/fix. At this point, I am literally willing to offer a reward for the person who can solve this riddle. Let me present as the following.

Problem: Whenever CO2 is introduced into my vegetative room, which is approximately 20x60 in size, the plants wither, become yellow, woody stems, within 48 hours of the CO2 introduction. This happens no matter where I veg in my building. i have tested vegging in multiple flowering rooms and the toxicity happens in the same time frame. When I remove CO2, the plants get better almost immediately. Also, when i move the plants to flower and flip them WITH CO2 on, the problem goes away immediately. To be clear, I could move in completely yellow plants, woody stems, etc and a week after I flip to flower, with CO2 running, it will be like it never happened, all lush green growth, etc. Just to be clear, CO2 works fine when plants are flowering. Does not work at all in veg status, whether it be gavita lights in a flower room we are using to veg or our standard veg room lighting.

I have been consulting with many growers I respect and trust and no one has seen this/heard of it, let alone have even a suggestion to fix.

Grow Composition: Vegetative Room - 56 Solistek Digital DE Hoods, with separate ballasts. Half the room is running on hortilux DE bulbs, other half growers choice metal halide bulbs. Temps: 76, humidity 60%, agrowtek controlled. Canna Coco, Canna Coco nutrients, tested recipe. 2 gallon fabric pots. Flower rooms are gavita 1000 de, standard etc. Lights are 5-6 feet off the canopy.

There is a massive prize to whoever can figure this out or even help guide us in the right direction. I appreciate everyone's help in advance, thank you.

Did everyone on the forum win a new car?!