Meeks' 2013 Dapper Grow Log

[dankemhunter]

Hey DH, it seems as if you have a strong attraction to this company Hydroponic-Research, and I'm not exactly sure why. Their prices for everything are through the roof and they don't seem to be doing anything revolutionary. This FWOK media is nothing new, its just been renamed and marketed to cannabis growers that can afford the multiple times mark-up. The results should be very very similar to using normal rockwool cubes, since the point of the loose-fill rockwool is just to allow you to put it in a pot (or used as house wall insulation) rather than have a cube form. Rockwool generally does require slightly less volume of root space to achieve the same plant growth, but coco is not far behind in that sense, so those numbers of 2:8 or 1:4 root volume ratio achieving the same plant size seems a bit silly and exaggerated. The styrofoam component is just a cheaper filler, since loose-fill rockwool is the more expensive ingredient. I strongly encourage you to take what you read on that companies site with a grain of salt, since they are in it for the profits and very clearly don't have any issue over stating the benefits of their products.


In regards to watering, I would treat your substrate the way rockwool cubes are normally treated. That means you never never never want to let it dry out, because rockwool becomes hydrophobic when it completely dries out, and then you need to soak it in water with a wetting agent before it will rehydrate properly, otherwise your irrigation water will just run through your pot without being absorbed by the media. Rockwool is generally known for being very picky about its pH and hydration level. Easily over watered or under-watered means that most successful rockwool growers use drip irrigation systems to irrigation multiple times a day or even more frequently once their root systems get established on larger plants. Maintaining the 5.5-5.8 input pH is also crucial, since the rockwool has no pH stabilization of its own and is completely inert to begin with. Most rockwool growers also like to soak their cubes in a 5.0 pH solution with a bit of wetting agent in the solution for 24 hours before using them, to get them fully hydrated and get a good starting pH level going in.

Your room temps sound just fine, but I would work on getting your relative humidity down to the 60-70% range during veg and then to the 50-60% range once you get into flowering.

Purple stems are common during minor stress, especially after a transplant. I have generally associated the purple stems/petioles with a slight magnesium deficiency, but have never considered them something to worry about or seen any bad results from plants that have shown this trait.



Thanks so much for the support guys, it's always great hearing from you!


-Meeks

Meeks I totally hear ya brother. I liked the concept and heard good things about the products and wanted to give it a rip. I will take u up on that offer to help me put together a recipe once I run out of this stuff!

 

[dankemhunter]

Also Meeks, my res for my rockwool is 740ppm ph 5.7. my runoff for my rockwool is 840ppm 5.4ph. Why is my ppm higher and my ph lower?

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Also Meeks, my res for my rockwool is 740ppm ph 5.7. my runoff for my rockwool is 840ppm 5.4ph. Why is my ppm higher and my ph lower?

Salt build up...

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Hey Soser, good to hear from you! Yep, I'm up in Washington state and moving into a new house next month. My plan is to do a medium sized medical grow to pay the bills while I find a company on the recreational production side of things that I would enjoy working with. I haven't had a chance to spend enough time in the new space to design everything too specifically yet, but my plan is to do something in the ballpark of 6-10Kw. It will be a multi-room grow, but each individual room will be small, roughly the same size as the flowering area I've been working with for past grows (2-4 light rooms). I also brought 5 of my strains up from California, so I'll be continuing to work with the Shadow Star, White Master Kush, Alien Grenades, White Fire Alien, and White Skunk, but I'm also looking to add new things that I come across up here in the Pacific North West! Local growers feel free to PM me, always down to have a friendly session or swap genetics.


-Meeks

I have to ask; what kind of prices are you farmer's seeing in Washington with all the commercial facilities running?

 

[basement bob]

@nMEEKS
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I just read this whole thread. I take notes and compress it into a reference guide I keep in my garden library.

No questions to ask (take notes kids, then reread, then ask IMHO).

Thanks again,

Bob

 

[nMEEKS]

Love this thread. Great pics and great info. Thanks for posting man and all the best.

Very kind words, thank you WG!

Meeks I totally hear ya brother. I liked the concept and heard good things about the products and wanted to give it a rip. I will take u up on that offer to help me put together a recipe once I run out of this stuff!

Right on.

Also Meeks, my res for my rockwool is 740ppm ph 5.7. my runoff for my rockwool is 840ppm 5.4ph. Why is my ppm higher and my ph lower?

Salt build up...

Thanks for getting the answer posted for me GL, obviously my response here would not have been very timely for him.

I have to ask; what kind of prices are you farmer's seeing in Washington with all the commercial facilities running?

Depending on how much you're buying and who you know, the range I've seen is $500-3200/lb of indoor, generally in the 2000-2600 range though for single lb purchases of quality indoor.

@nMEEKS
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I just read this whole thread. I take notes and compress it into a reference guide I keep in my garden library.

No questions to ask (take notes kids, then reread, then ask IMHO).

Thanks again,

Bob

You're very welcome Bob! Don't hesitate to ask any questions that may arise, I haven't memorized these logs and my knowledge/experience continues to build, so sometimes even asking the same question twice can get different information out of me if my focus is on something slightly different the second time. I wish you all the best in your growing efforts.



Oh, and shout out to @caveman4.20 for clearly also reading through the log and comments, just got blown up with notifications, lurkers are always welcome too, thanks mate!


-Meeks

 

[dankemhunter]

Just want to start out by saying sorry for blowing your post up MEEKS! I didn't really know how to get ahold of ya. Couple questions below for ya.

Okay this is my first coco grow. 2 pictures are rooted clones that have been transplanted into solo cups about 1 week ago. I let them get dry before I watered them for the second time. Then I let it go about half dry before next. Why have some of them rooted much harder than others? Should I be watering these plants every day? Every other day? Would you let the ones that have not much of a root structure dry out?

Also, the pictures of the plants in 1.5 gals were fully rooted solo cups. They have been in the 1.5 for a week. Not much growth and kind of yelloOkay so I got a few questions. 2 pictures below are rooted clones that have been transplanted into solo cups about 1 week ago. I let them get dry before I watered them for the second time. Then I let it go about half dry before next. Why have some of them rooted much harder than others? Should I be watering these plants every day? Would you let the ones that have not much of a root structure dry out?

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Just want to start out by saying sorry for blowing your post up MEEKS! I didn't really know how to get ahold of ya. Couple questions below for ya.

Okay this is my first coco grow. 2 pictures are rooted clones that have been transplanted into solo cups about 1 week ago. I let them get dry before I watered them for the second time. Then I let it go about half dry before next. Why have some of them rooted much harder than others? Should I be watering these plants every day? Every other day? Would you let the ones that have not much of a root structure dry out?

Also, the pictures of the plants in 1.5 gals were fully rooted solo cups. They have been in the 1.5 for a week. Not much growth and kind of yelloOkay so I got a few questions. 2 pictures below are rooted clones that have been transplanted into solo cups about 1 week ago. I let them get dry before I watered them for the second time. Then I let it go about half dry before next. Why have some of them rooted much harder than others? Should I be watering these plants every day? Would you let the ones that have not much of a root structure dry out?



View attachment 447648 View attachment 447647 View attachment 447646

All cuts are different... Way too many variables to offer a definitive answer as well as one that isn't 2 pages in length. You need to start taking detailed notes and put the man hours in, it's the only way to learn, trial and error. How do you think the experienced grower's here learned how to grow?

 

[dankemhunter]

All cuts are different... Way too many variables to offer a definitive answer as well as one that isn't 2 pages in length. You need to start taking detailed notes and put the man hours in, it's the only way to learn, trial and error. How do you think the experienced grower's here learned how to grow?

GL I'm here to put the hours in trust me... I'm just trying to get some information before I over water or under water based on the pictures. I'm new and asking questions. Asking questions never hurt right? Thanks for your help though bud

 

[nMEEKS]

Just want to start out by saying sorry for blowing your post up MEEKS! I didn't really know how to get ahold of ya. Couple questions below for ya.

Okay this is my first coco grow. 2 pictures are rooted clones that have been transplanted into solo cups about 1 week ago. I let them get dry before I watered them for the second time.

Also, the pictures of the plants in 1.5 gals were fully rooted solo cups. They have been in the 1.5 for a week. Not much growth and kind of yelloOkay so I got a few questions. 2 pictures below are rooted clones that have been transplanted into solo cups about 1 week ago. I let them get dry before I watered them for the second time. Then I let it go about half dry before next. Why have some of them rooted much harder than others? Should I be watering these plants every day? Every other day? Would you let the ones that have not much of a root structure dry out?

Roots only grow due to cell expansion (obviously cell division occurs in the root meristem, but the visible root size increase we see is due to cell expansion after new cells are divided). Cell expansion only occurs due to increasing the water content in the cell, like filling up a chain of water balloons the root grows. The water content in the root cells can only increase if there is water in the root environment for the roots to uptake. So basically what I am trying to break down for you, is that the concept of letting your media dry out to 'make the roots hunt for the water and grow deeper' is completely idiotic and based entirely off of trying to humanize a plant... but plants aren't human, and don't chase water if they are in a dry media because their roots literally can't grow when its too dry.

Overwatering does not mean there is too much water for the roots to handle, it just means you are watering so often or so much that your media does not have a chance to drain to a point where micro pockets of oxygen can exist. Roots not only need water, but they also need oxygen just like us to respire and grow. Coco coir can hold so much water and is also well drained enough that it is very difficult to over water, but still possible if you are keeping the coco soaked 24/7.

Both of these problems, over or under watering, will cause root growth stunting that will likely translate to slowed growth of your plant over all. However, the important thing that GL mentioned, is that there are so many other variables that can also cause root growth stunting, including genetics, salt levels, nutrient levels, disease, pests, environment, you name it. The more you grow, and the better notes you take, the easier it will become to spot when there is a true problem or when things are just following their normal course.



-Meeks

 

[GR33NL3AF]

So basically what I am trying to break down for you, is that the concept of letting your media dry out to 'make the roots hunt for the water and grow deeper' is completely idiotic and based entirely off of trying to humanize a plant... but plants aren't human, and don't chase water if they are in a dry media because their roots literally can't grow when its too dry.

This is genius!

I've been hearing this bullshit for years, hahah. Thanks, as always, for clarifying Meeks!

 

[dankemhunter]

Roots only grow due to cell expansion (obviously cell division occurs in the root meristem, but the visible root size increase we see is due to cell expansion after new cells are divided). Cell expansion only occurs due to increasing the water content in the cell, like filling up a chain of water balloons the root grows. The water content in the root cells can only increase if there is water in the root environment for the roots to uptake. So basically what I am trying to break down for you, is that the concept of letting your media dry out to 'make the roots hunt for the water and grow deeper' is completely idiotic and based entirely off of trying to humanize a plant... but plants aren't human, and don't chase water if they are in a dry media because their roots literally can't grow when its too dry.

Overwatering does not mean there is too much water for the roots to handle, it just means you are watering so often or so much that your media does not have a chance to drain to a point where micro pockets of oxygen can exist. Roots not only need water, but they also need oxygen just like us to respire and grow. Coco coir can hold so much water and is also well drained enough that it is very difficult to over water, but still possible if you are keeping the coco soaked 24/7.

Both of these problems, over or under watering, will cause root growth stunting that will likely translate to slowed growth of your plant over all. However, the important thing that GL mentioned, is that there are so many other variables that can also cause root growth stunting, including genetics, salt levels, nutrient levels, disease, pests, environment, you name it. The more you grow, and the better notes you take, the easier it will become to spot when there is a true problem or when things are just following their normal course.



-Meeks

When you say soaked 24/7, do you mean saturated where every micro and macro pore is filled or do u mean field capacity to where the media has stopped dripping?

 

[Dunge]

'make the roots hunt for the water and grow deeper' is completely idiotic

In a wet pot, where does the water go?
Some evaporates into the air from pot openings.
All the remaining water escapes through transpiration via root uptake.
The distribution of water in the pot is lower in the immediate vicinity of a root body thus driving water movement by diffusion.
The plant may not "want" to grow in the direction of higher water content, but it is compelled by nature to do so.
Untapped (wet) soil will look like an attractant.
Dry roots will arrest while roots close to water reserves will grow.
This is my cartoon.
Partly ignorant, but not idiotic.

 

[nMEEKS]

This is genius!

I've been hearing this bullshit for years, hahah. Thanks, as always, for clarifying Meeks!

Np buddy

When you say soaked 24/7, do you mean saturated where every micro and macro pore is filled or do u mean field capacity to where the media has stopped dripping?

Good point, and it makes me so happy to hear people using these soil science terms with true respect to their very specfic definitions, I will have to be more careful which words I choose. I mean't the zone between saturated and field capacity 24/7 is problematic, it is proper to irrigate until runoff (which requires getting up to or close to saturation) and then let the pot drain to field capacity, but your plants will not be happy if they consistently have 'wet feet' from being kept at or above field capacity all the time, since there is still a lower portion of the substrate in a pot that remains saturated, even once the pot stops draining. Letting the substrate get slightly drier than field capacity in between irrigations is best, but I just wanted to highlight that letting your substrate dry out too much will never encourage better root growth the way some people think it does by attributing 'thrist' to a plant root. Minor drought stress events can increase plant heartiness, but that is a seperate issue that is mostly valuable to growers who plan to move the plants outside at some point in their life.

In a wet pot, where does the water go?
Some evaporates into the air from pot openings.
All the remaining water escapes through transpiration via root uptake.
The distribution of water in the pot is lower in the immediate vicinity of a root body thus driving water movement by diffusion.
The plant may not "want" to grow in the direction of higher water content, but it is compelled by nature to do so.
Untapped (wet) soil will look like an attractant.
Dry roots will arrest while roots close to water reserves will grow.
This is my cartoon.
Partly ignorant, but not idiotic.

Hmm, I think you are just mistaking what I am saying, and somewhat repeating my point. As you correctly say, for plants to grow (roots or shoots) there is a chain reaction of osmosis (diffusion of water) in the rhizosphere (zone immediately surrounding the roots) that allows them to uptake water for transpiration. And as you also correctly say, zones in the substrate that have high enough moisture content will allow for healthy root growth, while dry zones will not allow for any increase in root growth, making a snap shot of an unevenly watered root zone appear to have the roots chasing the water, because that is where they are able to grow. But the issue that I was raising, is in regards to a piece of poor advice that can be commonly seen being spread around cannabis forums everywhere; the silly idea that you would want to let your substrate dry out every once and a while to encourage the roots to get off their ass and go hunting for water because they get thirsty, and this supposedly makes your roots want to grow deeper/bigger. . . but as you correctly stated, roots without enough moisture in their rhizosphere will not grow, and if you are letting your pots dry out, your roots aren't growing in search of new water at all, they are just sitting there struggling to stay alive (put a plant 3 feet from the drip line and it will die, it wont grow roots through 3 feet of dry soil to find the water, it doesn't even know where the water is as you said, it just naturally follows the water it currently has access to, and if the rhizosphere is dry with water just out of reach, then too bad, the roots better hope it rains).