my theory would be that you can flower successfully under 4/4, 6/6 or 8/8 light cycles

[Moe.Red]

With my current understanding of photo plant hormones, I'm struggling to see how this would be anything but detrimental to the plant. That said, I fully support your desire to push the boundaries. I'm just thinking there are other areas that probably have better potential than giving your plants insomnia. Or maybe I'm just tired and feel bad for your girls lol.

How will you know if this is a success? Do you have a control?

 

[GreenGalaxyFarm]

With my current understanding of photo plant hormones, I'm struggling to see how this would be anything but detrimental to the plant. That said, I fully support your desire to push the boundaries. I'm just thinking there are other areas that probably have better potential than giving your plants insomnia. Or maybe I'm just tired and feel bad for your girls lol.

which cycle does this pertain to specifically. 10/14 has been documented in literature as being more effective at getting a veg plant to ripeness faster, im studying it now still need to get into the citations so my mind started thinking in this 8/8 cycle direction not sure when it stems from initially i read a lot

How will you know if this is a success? Do you have a control?

this is not something i am currently doing but rather found the thought of intriguing
there would be no control i would have to run clones side by side to sungrown

 

[Moe.Red]

im studying it now still need to get into the citations so my mind started thinking in this 8/8 cycle direction not sure when it stems from initially i read a lot

I'm no expert but I read from time to time as well. If you want to post a link, maybe I'll learn something!

My position would be that plants evolved under conditions that created a circadian rhythm.

Frontiers | Role of Circadian Rhythms in Major Plant Metabolic and Signaling Pathways

Plants require an endogenous regulatory network and mechanism to cope with diurnal environmental changes and compensate for their sessile nature. Plants use ...

www.frontiersin.org

Important things happen at night. And day for that matter. Plants, being sessile, are completely at the mercy of their environment. There are things you can do in the environment that will "hack" into a normal plant process and make a change, some of which are positive viewed by the grower. An example would be adding CO2. I don't think switching to 2/2 or 4/4 or 6/6 will bring positive results. It will be the plant being confused and not knowing what to do.

We can, for example, hack into the plant's sleep patterns, effectively putting them to sleep faster using Far Red. How?

There is a hormone in cannabis called florigen that essentially manages flower. Light flips it to a different chemical during the day in the leaves, then lack of light the plant flips it back. Ying yang all day all night. It takes a fair amount of time for the plant to fully flip that back to the Pr or dark mode chemical once lights go out. Hours. You need this to flower - its the plant signal to make buds.

Without ample dark period, I would expect a confused plant not dissimilar to a reveg.

But I've been wrong more times than I can count, so who knows.

 

[PipeCarver]

I'm no expert but I read from time to time as well. If you want to post a link, maybe I'll learn something!

My position would be that plants evolved under conditions that created a circadian rhythm.

Frontiers | Role of Circadian Rhythms in Major Plant Metabolic and Signaling Pathways

Plants require an endogenous regulatory network and mechanism to cope with diurnal environmental changes and compensate for their sessile nature. Plants use ...

www.frontiersin.org

Important things happen at night. And day for that matter. Plants, being sessile, are completely at the mercy of their environment. There are things you can do in the environment that will "hack" into a normal plant process and make a change, some of which are positive viewed by the grower. An example would be adding CO2. I don't think switching to 2/2 or 4/4 or 6/6 will bring positive results. It will be the plant being confused and not knowing what to do.

We can, for example, hack into the plant's sleep patterns, effectively putting them to sleep faster using Far Red. How?

There is a hormone in cannabis called florigen that essentially manages flower. Light flips it to a different chemical during the day in the leaves, then lack of light the plant flips it back. Ying yang all day all night. It takes a fair amount of time for the plant to fully flip that back to the Pr or dark mode chemical once lights go out. Hours. You need this to flower - its the plant signal to make buds.

Without ample dark period, I would expect a confused plant not dissimilar to a reveg.

But I've been wrong more times than I can count, so who knows.

Hey did you ever see Myth Busters drive a square wheeled car??? Once they got it up to speed it worked pretty good as I remember.....cornering was a bitch but it went straight pretty good.

 

[GreenGalaxyFarm]

An example would be adding CO2

yes i do f with other parameters as well.

using Far Red. How?

interesting havnt gotten into this before. much before as we havnt been able to isolate and study effectively since 'recently' so much research probably coming out.

Frontiers | Role of Circadian Rhythms in Major Plant Metabolic and Signaling Pathways

Plants require an endogenous regulatory network and mechanism to cope with diurnal environmental changes and compensate for their sessile nature. Plants use ...

www.frontiersin.org

will get to this now
edit: ''There are also transcriptional and translational feedback loops (TTFLs) in the clock, which are dependent on the results of gene expression. Several physiological processes, such as stress acclimatization, hormone signaling, morphogenesis, carbon metabolism, and defense response, are currently being investigated for their interactions with the circadian clock using phenotypic, genomic, and metabolic studies.'' proving interesting so far will have to pick up on it later

 

[Moe.Red]

yes i do f with other parameters as well.

Me too. Currently running 90% O2 in the root zone, just because.

I push in MANY ways. I'll watch you do this one, but I can't see myself getting behind this and potentially wasting a whole grow cycle personally.

 

[Zen_Seeker]

interesting havnt gotten into this before. much before as we havnt been able to isolate and study effectively since 'recently' so much research probably coming out

IIRC my Photontek SQ300W takes advantage of the extra red light.

This is a new light for me so we’ll see.

 

[GreenGalaxyFarm]

Me too. Currently running 90% O2 in the root zone, just because.

playing around with the rootzone is part of the joy in soil, actual soil. did more research into auxins and plant cytokinin only today. use to say, knowledge is growing the leaf wisdom is growing the root

I push in MANY ways. I'll watch you do this one, but I can't see myself getting behind this and potentially wasting a whole grow cycle personally.

space isnt my foreseeable issue watering 40 trees outside is..too many seedlings going last thing i need is more indoor growing but curiosity need to be satisfied. our previous house had space for 1 or 2 trees (8years of that)so im exploring my options finally

 

[Moe.Red]

playing around with the rootzone is part of the joy in soil, actual soil. did more research into auxins and plant cytokinin only today. use to say, knowledge is growing the leaf wisdom is growing the root

I don't play around in actual soil, and I don't know how wise I am, but this is what roots in hydro at 90% O2 look like.

4 weeks from germination on those roots. Oh yeah at 18/6

 

[Aqua Man]

I don't play around in actual soil, and I don't know how wise I am, but this is what roots in hydro at 90% O2 look like.

4 weeks from germination on those roots. Oh yeah at 18/6

Sexy af brother

 

[PipeCarver]

I don't play around in actual soil, and I don't know how wise I am, but this is what roots in hydro at 90% O2 look like.

4 weeks from germination on those roots. Oh yeah at 18/6

It looks Alien like something that wants to take over the planet. Don't plant it outside & let it lose on humanity until you know how to control it / kill it.....I've seen movies....

 

[Aqua Man]

My thoughts are the hormones wont allow anything less than 10 hrs of uninterrupted darkness for flower as they shift very fast when exposed to light and are very slow to shift lights out.

im assuming the thought is that the first 4 hrs of photosynthesis is the most efficient due to a gradual decline in photosynthesis under very intense light over a long period caused by an increase in photorespiration.

But you also have to take into account the time it takes for the plant to switch between photosynthesis and the calvin cycle… although some manipulation of light spectrums (primarily red) can help speed the transition up, i dont think we are quite there yet on the solid science of taking advantage of manipulating short light cycles to see any meanin benefits… although this is an being studied on an ongoing basis so maybe one day sooner than later.

like most things cannabis… things are not as simple as they may appear and there is no room for blanket statements of claims which continues on a large scale.

my $0.02

 

[PipeCarver]

My thoughts are the hormones wont allow anything less than 10 hrs of uninterrupted darkness for flower as they shift very fast when exposed to light and are very slow to shift lights out.

im assuming the thought is that the first 4 hrs of photosynthesis is the most efficient due to a gradual decline in photosynthesis under very intense light over a long period caused by an increase in photorespiration.

But you also have to take into account the time it takes for the plant to switch between photosynthesis and the calvin cycle… although some manipulation of light spectrums (primarily red) can help speed the transition up, i dont think we are quite there yet on the solid science of taking advantage of manipulating short light cycles to see any meanin benefits… although this is an being studied on an ongoing basis so maybe one day sooner than later.

like most things cannabis… things are not as simple as they may appear and there is no room for blanket statements of claims which continues on a large scale.

my $0.02

I'm planning on giving my next flowering bunch mock dawn and twilight with my 4' red led strip lights. I'll string them on the edges and set them for 15 min on before and 15 min after..... with plants I've grown before and see if I notice any change

 

[Aqua Man]

I'm planning on giving my next flowering bunch mock dawn and twilight with my 4' red led strip lights. I'll string them on the edges and set them for 15 min on before and 15 min after..... with plants I've grown before and see if I notice any change

Dont quote me on this but I believe its a combination of far red and red in ratio that can aid in the time it takes plants to change processes. You likely won’t see much of a benefit.

if i was to tinker with spectrums personally i would concentrate on a reduction of green spectrum and an increase in blue spectrum for late flower. But like nutrients, ratios of spectrum have a profound effect on not only the plant morphologies but the compounds it produces. I have fallen behind on the science a bit and also have forgotten much of my research on the subject. But atleast it puts it out there so ppl know what kinda of things to look into

 

[PipeCarver]

Dont quote me on this but I believe its a combination of far red and red in ratio that can aid in the time it takes plants to change processes. You likely won’t see much of a benefit.

if i was to tinker with spectrums personally i would concentrate on a reduction of green spectrum and an increase in blue spectrum for late flower. But like nutrients, ratios of spectrum have a profound effect on not only the plant morphologies but the compounds it produces. I have fallen behind on the science a bit and also have forgotten much of my research on the subject. But atleast it puts it out there so ppl know what kinda of things to look into

The reason I'm considering it is because this last summer I had a mock twilight with off setting lights I couldn't get the timers right on so they kept coming on 5-10 min or more early....

I seemed to grow bigger buds on that grow. I think we talked about it so I thought wtf I might as well try with these red lights.... I know they have an effect on growth because they stretch my plants in veg so....we'll see I guess....it didn't hurt them and maybe just woke them in a better mood.....

lights out...

 

[Aqua Man]

The reason I'm considering it is because this last summer I had a mock twilight with off setting lights I couldn't get the timers right on so they kept coming on 5-10 min or more early....

I seemed to grow bigger buds on that grow. I think we talked about it so I thought wtf I might as well try with these red lights.... I know they have an effect on growth because they stretch my plants in veg so....we'll see I guess....it didn't hurt them and maybe just woke them in a better mood.....

lights out...

Definitely dont think there is anything to lose and only a possibility of a gaiin so worth the test.

in veg i would assume it helps even out the canopy? Maybe a bit more stretch (longer internode spacing) to them?

i would assume this is due to the red and far red effect on whats reffered to as shade avoidance

 

[Moe.Red]

Very cool the direction this thread has taken.

I have tested the far red puts plants to bed sooner question personally. My conclusion was 60Watts in a 4x4 half of a 4x8 tent was no difference. I can elaborate if you want but I think like aqua said there is more to it.

It’s the R:FR ratio at a very high ppfd that matters. I did not have it right so I was not able to duplicate the results in the published study we all base this on.

I’d like to see it work once so if there is anything I can do to help you @PipeCarver lmk. I’ve got lights I can send you if you need more far red ppfd. I also have a far red ppfd meter from apogee. HPS would be awesome to run with your far red bar if you can swing it.

There’s a few wsys to run far red.

Emerson effect is also a ratio thing that causes additional photosynthesis to take place. Bigger yield.

Far red early in veg effects morphology by signaling indirect light triggering shade response which pushes the plant wide not tall.

Far red early to late flower like you are talking about running them pipe carver starts the switching of hormones to night mode more quickly. Why do we want that? So you can leave lights on longer remain in flower and increase DLI but not add any ppfd to the plant. So basically you can push them to the verge of cooking then push them a little harder. Bigger yield.

And yeah that green stuff is a whole other thing.

Glad to see you back to your old tricks aqua. We missed you around here during your move.

 

[Aqua Man]

Very cool the direction this thread has taken.

I have tested the far red puts plants to bed sooner question personally. My conclusion was 60Watts in a 4x4 half of a 4x8 tent was no difference. I can elaborate if you want but I think like aqua said there is more to it.

It’s the R:FR ratio at a very high ppfd that matters. I did not have it right so I was not able to duplicate the results in the published study we all base this on.

I’d like to see it work once so if there is anything I can do to help you @PipeCarver lmk. I’ve got lights I can send you if you need more far red ppfd. I also have a far red ppfd meter from apogee. HPS would be awesome to run with your far red bar if you can swing it.

There’s a few wsys to run far red.

Emerson effect is also a ratio thing that causes additional photosynthesis to take place. Bigger yield.

Far red early in veg effects morphology by signaling indirect light triggering shade response which pushes the plant wide not tall.

Far red early to late flower like you are talking about running them pipe carver starts the switching of hormones to night mode more quickly. Why do we want that? So you can leave lights on longer remain in flower and increase DLI but not add any ppfd to the plant. So basically you can push them to the verge of cooking then push them a little harder. Bigger yield.

And yeah that green stuff is a whole other thing.

Glad to see you back to your old tricks aqua. We missed you around here during your move.

Glad to be back brother

 

[Observationist]

With my current understanding of photo plant hormones, I'm struggling to see how this would be anything but detrimental to the plant. That said, I fully support your desire to push the boundaries. I'm just thinking there are other areas that probably have better potential than giving your plants insomnia. Or maybe I'm just tired and feel bad for your girls lol.

How will you know if this is a success? Do you have a control?

More than like

I'm no expert but I read from time to time as well. If you want to post a link, maybe I'll learn something!

My position would be that plants evolved under conditions that created a circadian rhythm.

Frontiers | Role of Circadian Rhythms in Major Plant Metabolic and Signaling Pathways

Plants require an endogenous regulatory network and mechanism to cope with diurnal environmental changes and compensate for their sessile nature. Plants use ...

www.frontiersin.org

Important things happen at night. And day for that matter. Plants, being sessile, are completely at the mercy of their environment. There are things you can do in the environment that will "hack" into a normal plant process and make a change, some of which are positive viewed by the grower. An example would be adding CO2. I don't think switching to 2/2 or 4/4 or 6/6 will bring positive results. It will be the plant being confused and not knowing what to do.

We can, for example, hack into the plant's sleep patterns, effectively putting them to sleep faster using Far Red. How?

There is a hormone in cannabis called florigen that essentially manages flower. Light flips it to a different chemical during the day in the leaves, then lack of light the plant flips it back. Ying yang all day all night. It takes a fair amount of time for the plant to fully flip that back to the Pr or dark mode chemical once lights go out. Hours. You need this to flower - its the plant signal to make buds.

Without ample dark period, I would expect a confused plant not dissimilar to a reveg.

But I've been wrong more times than I can count, so who knows.

Thanks for everyone contribution, this thread took off more then I expected.

I would like to test this with a control, I may get around to doing so this year.

 

[Observationist]

Glad to be back brother

Glad you're back