Need help with deficiency I think

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K

KGBudman

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Here's the deal.
E&F 4 gal buckets with 3 gal mesh pots w/Hydroton
Botanicare Pure Blend Pro(1 part organic) at about 2 tsp/gal 735ppm(base water starts at 115 ppm)
PH range 5.5-6.0 sometimes 6.2
temp 70-75 RH 50-60%
res temp 66
lights on 24/7
1x1000 MH 1x 600 HPS(soon to be 1000)on a circle
feeding is 15 min every 3 hrs

I posted here a couple weeks ago with a "PH NIGHTMARE". My girls were definately affected by a high PH (hydroton not being flushed and PH'd). Girls now use about 12 gals of water and PH now go's from 5.5-6.0 in about 3 days nutes in remaing res water is lowered from 735 ppm to 635 ppm.

Just can't put my finger on it.
Maybe Calcium? Some leaves curling downward some just really droopy looking,some...Well let me just post pics.
 
G

googolplexs

58
8
Looks good to me , what do I know. Seems like your not feeding enough, I'm runnig 1600 ppm aero, 1200 - 1300 ppm deep water, great white bacteria, boost, mag-cal thrive alive red, sillycon, their just sucking it up need co2.
 
B

Budders

62
0
not bad

other than foliar feeding some cal-mag to green those leaves up a bit i think they look fairly healthy...I'd be hesitant to change much tho based on the ph nightmare a couple weeks ago. They may still be recovering for lock out do to the ph issues. I’d feed em easy, give them another week.
 
Legion

Legion

99
33
They don't look "bad" at all. Could be a little wind burn on that one or N burn but it's very very light. Unless it's getting worse I wouldn't worry about it. :yes
 
lazarus718

lazarus718

626
28
If you had pH issues before this bro, let em ride for a bit. You have green leaves and that's what you want right now, I don't see any Ca/Mg issues at all man. One of the other posters said underfed...not at all bro. Just let them chill for a while and stop picking on them. Go take a seat in the Lazy-Boy.
 
K

KGBudman

119
18
Try again

Looks good to me , what do I know. Seems like your not feeding enough, I'm runnig 1600 ppm aero, 1200 - 1300 ppm deep water, great white bacteria, boost, mag-cal thrive alive red, sillycon, their just sucking it up need co2.

You are right on the under feeding.Have only giving them half strength.I bumped them up during this week,fresh res change last night at full strength + cal-mag at 1/4 strength.I don'twanna OVER cal-mag them and since I'm not using RO water,I didn't think I should even need cal-mag.

other than foliar feeding some cal-mag to green those leaves up a bit i think they look fairly healthy...I'd be hesitant to change much tho based on the ph nightmare a couple weeks ago. They may still be recovering for lock out do to the ph issues. I’d feed em easy, give them another week.

I gave them cal-mag foliar 2 times in the last three days. The PH issue should be overcome by now since that was when they first went in. Whatever it is,It is still affecting them. Most of them are trying to out grow it but I still see it. The first pic shows it well. Larger leaves from top to bottom are showing it and it seems to move from bottom to top.,

They don't look "bad" at all. Could be a little wind burn on that one or N burn but it's very very light. Unless it's getting worse I wouldn't worry about it. :yes

Seriously doubt either one of these. Not wind burn cause it's surrounded by other plants that don't show near as much. Also not N burn cause I've been running 1/2 strength.

If you had pH issues before this bro, let em ride for a bit. You have green leaves and that's what you want right now, I don't see any Ca/Mg issues at all man. One of the other posters said underfed...not at all bro. Just let them chill for a while and stop picking on them. Go take a seat in the Lazy-Boy.

Yeah,I'm DEFINATELY not the lazy boy rider. I see something wrong and won't rest til I get it figured out. I have 1 plant that has not been able to overtake whatever it is and if someone can recognize what her problem is,that's what is affecting them all. First I'll post a pic of the sick wench,then I'll post newer pics of the first pic so you can see it is still progressing.

Thanks guys for the replies and sorry for not replying sooner,been a looong hard week.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
One plant looks most unhappy with the combination of temperature and relative humidity. Have you tried warming things up, increasing humidity?

Using tap water does not eliminate the need for Ca/Mg. First let me qualify by saying I have not grown in Hydroton. I have grown/grow in soil, coco coir with perlite, coco coir with rice hulls, and pure perlite hempies. Now, about the water. Having hard tap water only means there are minerals dissolved in it. That does not automatically mean that those minerals are calcium and/or magnesium, NOR does it mean that those minerals are in a form that is usable by the plants.

But, let's say your water has a high carbonate hardness level (aka dKH, or degrees German hardness, as opposed to general hardness, which is an overall total measure of mineral content). We know that carbonate hardness is caused by calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate (CaCO3 & MgCO3, respectively) by far more commonly than by other forms of Ca & Mg. It has been my experience that outside of an organic soil situation plants can *not* utilize these forms of Ca & Mg. While I cannot discuss on a molecular level why this is, I can tell you that, via empirical evidence and testing of my own source water, growing, etcetera, it just doesn't work well.

Necrotic leaf margins and interveinal necrosis tend to demonstrate a calcium uptake problem, deficiency or toxicity. I see the beginning signs of this, nor do I see anything that indicates a problem with magnesium. I *do* see reddened petioles, which are usually an indicator of low P levels. But mostly I see plants that are unhappy with temperature + relative humidity. I would try raising humidity so that 60% is a minimum, 65% is average and 70%-80% are the high end. Honestly though, I haven't run a single strain that didn't pop a major woody when temp was @80F and RH was 70%+ (no, I'm not kidding, just watch the leaf turgor!).

P.S. You can't simply stay "It can't be N toxicity because I'm feeding at half strength."
The plants are the ones who determine how much is enough and what's too much, not the label. The label is a guideline, not a gospel. Legion's been doing this a little while, has some good advice pretty much every time from what I've seen over the years.

Also, your girls look pretty damn good to me (sorry, I don't remember reading about your pH nightmare). Don't lose the forest for the trees. In other words, don't get too caught up chasing the perfect appearance and end up making things more difficult or, worse yet, creating more problems. The goal is to bring out the best in them, and a few ugly leaves aren't going to make any appreciable impact on quality or yield, IMO.


****Edit**** Just saw this post above mine.
Here's the sicko
That one is very overfed, too much nitrogen and not enough phosphorous. Downward curled, very dark green, and the beginning of canoeing are the signals she's giving you.
 
K

KGBudman

119
18
One plant looks most unhappy with the combination of temperature and relative humidity. Have you tried warming things up, increasing humidity?

Using tap water does not eliminate the need for Ca/Mg. First let me qualify by saying I have not grown in Hydroton. I have grown/grow in soil, coco coir with perlite, coco coir with rice hulls, and pure perlite hempies. Now, about the water. Having hard tap water only means there are minerals dissolved in it. That does not automatically mean that those minerals are calcium and/or magnesium, NOR does it mean that those minerals are in a form that is usable by the plants.

But, let's say your water has a high carbonate hardness level (aka dKH, or degrees German hardness, as opposed to general hardness, which is an overall total measure of mineral content). We know that carbonate hardness is caused by calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate (CaCO3 & MgCO3, respectively) by far more commonly than by other forms of Ca & Mg. It has been my experience that outside of an organic soil situation plants can *not* utilize these forms of Ca & Mg. While I cannot discuss on a molecular level why this is, I can tell you that, via empirical evidence and testing of my own source water, growing, etcetera, it just doesn't work well.

Necrotic leaf margins and interveinal necrosis tend to demonstrate a calcium uptake problem, deficiency or toxicity. I see the beginning signs of this, nor do I see anything that indicates a problem with magnesium. I *do* see reddened petioles, which are usually an indicator of low P levels. But mostly I see plants that are unhappy with temperature + relative humidity. I would try raising humidity so that 60% is a minimum, 65% is average and 70%-80% are the high end. Honestly though, I haven't run a single strain that didn't pop a major woody when temp was @80F and RH was 70%+ (no, I'm not kidding, just watch the leaf turgor!).

P.S. You can't simply stay "It can't be N toxicity because I'm feeding at half strength."
The plants are the ones who determine how much is enough and what's too much, not the label. The label is a guideline, not a gospel. Legion's been doing this a little while, has some good advice pretty much every time from what I've seen over the years.

Also, your girls look pretty damn good to me (sorry, I don't remember reading about your pH nightmare). Don't lose the forest for the trees. In other words, don't get too caught up chasing the perfect appearance and end up making things more difficult or, worse yet, creating more problems. The goal is to bring out the best in them, and a few ugly leaves aren't going to make any appreciable impact on quality or yield, IMO.


****Edit**** Just saw this post above mine.

That one is very overfed, too much nitrogen and not enough phosphorous. Downward curled, very dark green, and the beginning of canoeing are the signals she's giving you.

I'm not understanding how this one is over fed.She's been this way all along and all the others have over come this and they are now receiving almost double the nutes as what they were. I also have one that was broken at the base when planted and even she has over taken this one. Also,they all receive the same food/water. It's more than just a few bad leaves. I can tell it is still following them. The first pic shows 2 plants affected.They have been showing these signs more than the others.The main plant in the pic and the one behind it. If you zoom in on it,you can see the prob from top to bottom. Top leaves show less but still moving up. I'll post a couple pics of what it eventually turns to.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I'm not understanding how this one is over fed.She's been this way all along and all the others have over come this and they are now receiving almost double the nutes as what they were. I also have one that was broken at the base when planted and even she has over taken this one. Also,they all receive the same food/water. It's more than just a few bad leaves. I can tell it is still following them. The first pic shows 2 plants affected.They have been showing these signs more than the others.The main plant in the pic and the one behind it. If you zoom in on it,you can see the prob from top to bottom. Top leaves show less but still moving up. I'll post a couple pics of what it eventually turns to.
You're learning by very direct experience some of the very real and noticeable differences in how different strains prefer to be grown. This is also what makes husbandry an art as much as a science, it's really important to learn how to read what each organism is telling us.

If I've missed something that you're talking about, would it be possible to circle or otherwise point out what it is you're seeing? Yes, I use glasses and miss having better than 20/20 vision, so I do need a little help there.
Like the bottom leaves here
Ok, that looks like a classic calcium deficiency to me and because it's starting on the bottom and working its way up, that pretty much nails it in my mind. Why? Specifically because it's the older (lower) leaves, and this is part of how one can diagnose problems.

People talk about calcium and magnesium because both must be present in sufficient amounts in order to work, this is literally on a molecular level I'm talking about.

Have you ever heard of the Mulders interaction chart? It might help you here and in the future.


It will also be helpful for you to learn what mobile and immobile nutrients are. Calcium is an immobile element, stored in leaves for future use. I find ag and dot edu sites to be FAR more informative, definitive and technically correct than any cannabis site one can find using Google.

http://www.smallgrains.org/Techfile/Franzen.htm

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ss530

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISSe... 5&document_soid=SS530&document_version=42330

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISSe... 6&document_soid=SS530&document_version=42330
 
K

KGBudman

119
18
One plant looks most unhappy with the combination of temperature and relative humidity. Have you tried warming things up, increasing humidity?

Using tap water does not eliminate the need for Ca/Mg. First let me qualify by saying I have not grown in Hydroton. I have grown/grow in soil, coco coir with perlite, coco coir with rice hulls, and pure perlite hempies. Now, about the water. Having hard tap water only means there are minerals dissolved in it. That does not automatically mean that those minerals are calcium and/or magnesium, NOR does it mean that those minerals are in a form that is usable by the plants.

But, let's say your water has a high carbonate hardness level (aka dKH, or degrees German hardness, as opposed to general hardness, which is an overall total measure of mineral content). We know that carbonate hardness is caused by calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate (CaCO3 & MgCO3, respectively) by far more commonly than by other forms of Ca & Mg. It has been my experience that outside of an organic soil situation plants can *not* utilize these forms of Ca & Mg. While I cannot discuss on a molecular level why this is, I can tell you that, via empirical evidence and testing of my own source water, growing, etcetera, it just doesn't work well.

Necrotic leaf margins and interveinal necrosis tend to demonstrate a calcium uptake problem, deficiency or toxicity. I see the beginning signs of this, nor do I see anything that indicates a problem with magnesium. I *do* see reddened petioles, which are usually an indicator of low P levels. But mostly I see plants that are unhappy with temperature + relative humidity. I would try raising humidity so that 60% is a minimum, 65% is average and 70%-80% are the high end. Honestly though, I haven't run a single strain that didn't pop a major woody when temp was @80F and RH was 70%+ (no, I'm not kidding, just watch the leaf turgor!).

P.S. You can't simply stay "It can't be N toxicity because I'm feeding at half strength."
The plants are the ones who determine how much is enough and what's too much, not the label. The label is a guideline, not a gospel. Legion's been doing this a little while, has some good advice pretty much every time from what I've seen over the years.


Also, your girls look pretty damn good to me (sorry, I don't remember reading about your pH nightmare). Don't lose the forest for the trees. In other words, don't get too caught up chasing the perfect appearance and end up making things more difficult or, worse yet, creating more problems. The goal is to bring out the best in them, and a few ugly leaves aren't going to make any appreciable impact on quality or yield, IMO.


****Edit**** Just saw this post above mine.

That one is very overfed, too much nitrogen and not enough phosphorous. Downward curled, very dark green, and the beginning of canoeing are the signals she's giving you.

Temps around 70-75 RH 60-75. My partner keeps insisting keep the lights close. They pass about 10-12 inches from the closest ones. The plants that show more crap though,are not getting that close. Should I maybe move the lights up a little? They are on a circle,so constantly moving.

Now I'm shittin. Just changed the res last night and upped the nutes to full strength (according to the label) 15 ml/gal. Water was 120 ppm.Added food brought me to 1088 ppm. Added cal-mag at 1.25 ml/gal(1/4 strength) I think that brought me to around 1160 ppm. Wrote it down but it's in the room. If they were over fed before,oh shit,I better get over there and have a look.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
Slow down, it's ok! See my above posts (I don't know how you did that, but there it is. Ain't cyberspace wild?).

The plants are not burned by lighting, that much is very easy to see, don't be concerned about lights right now. Just concern yourself with understanding what's happening and why. I truly think it will help ease your mind and concerns.
 
K

KGBudman

119
18
You're learning by very direct experience some of the very real and noticeable differences in how different strains prefer to be grown. This is also what makes husbandry an art as much as a science, it's really important to learn how to read what each organism is telling us.

If I've missed something that you're talking about, would it be possible to circle or otherwise point out what it is you're seeing? Yes, I use glasses and miss having better than 20/20 vision, so I do need a little help there.

Ok, that looks like a classic calcium deficiency to me and because it's starting on the bottom and working its way up, that pretty much nails it in my mind. Why? Specifically because it's the older (lower) leaves, and this is part of how one can diagnose problems.

People talk about calcium and magnesium because both must be present in sufficient amounts in order to work, this is literally on a molecular level I'm talking about.

Have you ever heard of the Mulders interaction chart? It might help you here and in the future.


It will also be helpful for you to learn what mobile and immobile nutrients are. Calcium is an immobile element, stored in leaves for future use. I find ag and dot edu sites to be FAR more informative, definitive and technically correct than any cannabis site one can find using Google.

http://www.smallgrains.org/Techfile/Franzen.htm

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ss530

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISSe... 5&document_soid=SS530&document_version=42330

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISSe... 6&document_soid=SS530&document_version=42330

In the first pic,that plant and the one behind it show it the most. I could tell it started lower and moved up. I can see it in most all the plants,some just more than others but it's there,no doubt in my mind. Gonna see if I got yesterdays pic of that same plant.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I have to go, but do a little reading on those sites I've linked you to. You have time, those girls aren't going to up and die on you for want of a little calcium and more tailored feeding regimen.
 
K

KGBudman

119
18
I have 3 girls showing extra fingers on the leaves. What's up with that? Mostly a few with 1 extra but one has 2 ex
 
DSC03087
DSC03074
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I've never witnessed that personally, but I've seen photos from a few folks who've seen that stacking. I've not seen that it indicates anything.
 
L

lil miss lone

281
0
What is the pest situation in this room, I see the yellow sticky thing. Are there an abundance of *"fungus gnats"*?
 
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