Non Hydro Trees.

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true grit

true grit

So I figured I'd start a topic on non hydro trees. Saw a thread the other day that got my wheels turning again, and figured I'd ask some folks what there experiences are.

So how are you non hydro tree growers doing it? I know a lot run chow mix, but still not quite where id like to be. Having hit a lb in straight soil, im curious if anyone else has some modified soil mixes/extra aeration going on? Perhaps soil/coco mix? I ran and got nailing down organic coco in beds a while back, but i still feel it doesn't quite have the depth that straight organic soil/teas can get ya.

For non hydro, how much light is taking to consistently break lb/per? As in sides of light per? I know plants don't constantly need light, so what about using an idea like the other thread about using casters to rotate plant?

@Cap since i know you have much more experience in this than myself- I saw you recommend against stout kushes- why is that?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Wait- doesn't the definition of 'hydro' mean that the plants are getting their nutrients from an aqueous solution? If so, then it's 'hydro' whether you use rockwool, chow mix or lava rocks.

If you mean 'non DWC', that includes hydroponic approaches with a substrate. Talk to Capulator!

If you mean 'non hydroponic' altogether, then that means soil, organics, and outdoor soil grows.

I'm not griping, I'm just trying to clarify what you're seeking.
 
Theoneandonly Z

Theoneandonly Z

non hydro tree farmer here :couchpotato: although my trees are no where near the size of those rocking the UC systems. i use a different medium mixture every grow, always keeping me on my toes. ATM im using a mixture of 50%-60% sunshine #4, 30%ish Botanicares Readygro Aeration mix, and about 10-15% Buckaroo EWC (mix ratio is not exact by any means, more of a guesstament...) I also am using 10 gal Roots pots and some 7 gals. i meant to pick up all 7 gal pots for i veg in 3 gals, but when i got home to transplant i started filling my pots and thought "damn, these 7 gals are fucking huge!" ... then i saw the 10 gal labeled on the tag...:banghead: my downfall on this one is that i usually transplant and veg for one more week to get over transplant shock and grow into the pot a bit before flower... on this one, i went straight to flower due to space issues and i didnt wanna change bulbs in my flowering room... lazy i kno.

as far as weight, i have been hittin 1 potato per light (600w's) consistently. however i aim for 1.5+ which is possible with the right enviro and stain. i water about every day on a FWWFWW schedule. i often replace a Water day with an ACT brew once a week.

also i went from 1 plant/ light, to 2/light, tried 4/light, and finally im sticking with 6 medium sized trees at about 4' tall. outcome weight didnt vary as much as i thought, but consistent cola size became more of a goal.

As far as rotation, im all about canopy management, lately using a trellis net over the top which limits movements of pots, but allows individual branches to receive equal light. im diggin it! however i used to rotate my pots every time i was in my room for equal lighting.

i would like to run a super soil mix indoors again, but i need to modify things a bit. I have used a blend of the Revs and subcools mix. Turned out nice, easy, and super tasty, but didnt hit my weight expectation. i feel its possible if i can refine a feeding regimen with proper tea brews... still working on a good blend.

grow treeZ!
 
Theoneandonly Z

Theoneandonly Z

Wait- doesn't the definition of 'hydro' mean that the plants are getting their nutrients from an aqueous solution? If so, then it's 'hydro' whether you use rockwool, chow mix or lava rocks.

If you mean 'non DWC', that includes hydroponic approaches with a substrate. Talk to Capulator!

If you mean 'non hydroponic' altogether, then that means soil, organics, and outdoor soil grows.

I'm not griping, I'm just trying to clarify what you're seeking.
i thought the definition of hydroponic is: Hydro = Water, Ponic = Labor. Being the word hydroponic is a vast term, i thought it meant any type of self watering system, the medium could be anything; rockwool, chow, soil, soilless, etc..
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

i thought the definition of hydroponic is: Hydro = Water, Ponic = Labor. Being the word hydroponic is a vast term, i thought it meant any type of self watering system, the medium could be anything; rockwool, chow, soil, soilless, etc..
This is incorrect. If your definition was the case, then pouring water on the ground for farm crops would be hydroponics.

Hydroponics is, by broadly accepted definition, the practice of FEEDING the plant primarily or exclusively through nutrients held in solution in the water. Whether the roots of that plant dangle in water, or sit in sand, chow mix, soilless mix or what have you doesnt matter.

If the substrate is making the Primary contribution of nutrients to the plant, it's not hydroponics. This is true whether you're watering by hand or via automated equipment. Does the sprinkler system watering your front yard make your lawn hydroponic? Not unless you put your nutes in the water first.

I'm not here to argue the merits of one approach over another- indeed, I'm subbed to this thread because I'm looking forward to seeing what people out there are running!
 
GR33NL3AF

GR33NL3AF

I just harvested trees grown in 65 gallon smart pots filled with Roots Organics, EWC, D. Lime and Humic.

I ran 5 of these smart pots and positioned them under a 10'x10' trellis that was 4.5' tall, allowing me to walk/work underneath the plants. I pruned until the trellis was nearly filled then flipped.

My experience...It is difficult to run trees with organics, I was scratching in EWC, D. Lime and Bloom Top dressing almost every feed and I hit them with tea once a week, still wasn't enough. I had to bring in some floranova bloom on top of it to keep them happy.

I just tore the room down 2 days ago and am going back to beds with smaller plants.
 
true grit

true grit

Wait- doesn't the definition of 'hydro' mean that the plants are getting their nutrients from an aqueous solution? If so, then it's 'hydro' whether you use rockwool, chow mix or lava rocks.

If you mean 'non DWC', that includes hydroponic approaches with a substrate. Talk to Capulator!

If you mean 'non hydroponic' altogether, then that means soil, organics, and outdoor soil grows.

I'm not griping, I'm just trying to clarify what you're seeking.
I could see what you are saying but i was def alluding to more specific substrates...for the most part referring to the more common organic substrates- ie soil/coco based. Other than that soil/coco can both be automated etc like most fully hydroponic systems. For the sake of this discussion, lets think along the lines of soil/coco and variations there of as far as mixes for substrate. :)

I'll get back in a lil bit and respond Z, as well discuss my previous set ups with vert soil trees/etc.

Need to get Waayne up in this bitch to take us to school! lol.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

I could see what you are saying but i was def alluding to more specific substrates...for the most part referring to the more common organic substrates- ie soil/coco based. Other than that soil/coco can both be automated etc like most fully hydroponic systems. For the sake of this discussion, lets think along the lines of soil/coco and variations there of as far as mixes for substrate. :)

I'll get back in a lil bit and respond Z, as well discuss my previous set ups with vert soil trees/etc.

Need to get Waayne up in this bitch to take us to school! lol.
I'm very interested in anything you have to say about growing vertically- I'm working on a vertical grow setup myself.
 
Dynamite

Dynamite

7-10 gal containers of rockwool with 2 plants per light will net ya 2P's a light ..

rockwool as in "absorbent granulated" ,comes in the 45lb bags from Grodan , I've been using it for running up on 20yrs now with GREAT results ,I used to have a few threads on the "how to's" ,but I believe they are all MIA these days
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
This is incorrect. If your definition was the case, then pouring water on the ground for farm crops would be hydroponics.

Hydroponics is, by broadly accepted definition, the practice of FEEDING the plant primarily or exclusively through nutrients held in solution in the water. Whether the roots of that plant dangle in water, or sit in sand, chow mix, soilless mix or what have you doesnt matter.

If the substrate is making the Primary contribution of nutrients to the plant, it's not hydroponics. This is true whether you're watering by hand or via automated equipment. Does the sprinkler system watering your front yard make your lawn hydroponic? Not unless you put your nutes in the water first.

I'm not here to argue the merits of one approach over another- indeed, I'm subbed to this thread because I'm looking forward to seeing what people out there are running!

ummm

by definition soil is any media with sand, silt, or clay (or any combination of).

hydro is everything else. "working water" hanging gardens of babylon one of the first known examples.

7-10 gal containers of rockwool with 2 plants per light will net ya 2P's a light ..

rockwool as in "absorbent granulated" ,comes in the 45lb bags from Grodan , I've been using it for running up on 20yrs now with GREAT results ,I used to have a few threads on the "how to's" ,but I believe they are all MIA these days
I've seen these grows and I will say that you knock it out of the damn park. DYN-O MITE!!!
 
waayne

waayne

Great idea for a thread True Grit
I love organic tree's:) indoors and out.....

GR33nL3AF I find it challenging as well growing large tree's organically
The proper timing of sequential transplants makes accomplishing this task much easier for me......

Here's a current Sledge Hammer Bubba clone that was vegged for eight weeks then flowered in a 20 gallon container of Black Gold/Roots soil mix
This pic was taken 28 days into flower
It was transplanted it into the 20 gallon container then vegged another 9 days, then moved it into flower......

This clone started life in a half gallon container ,then a 1 gallon,then a 3 gallon,later in veg a 7 gallon container than finally the 20 gallon container
These sequential transplants every 10-12 days work well for my gardening style and allow my plants to develop a large, dense, healthy,root system......
This plant gets about 3- 3 1/2 gallons of water per day
My flower room temp is always in the mid 70's when the lights are on......

This Sledge Hammer Bubba is in a room with 1000 watt HPS flats and verts
It is getting over 110 watts per sq. ft.
The transition from veg under 1000 watt halides to the intensity of the flower room must be very gradual to avoid UV burn and light bleaching issues
I find with verts and flats I have very little larf ,even on six - seven foot tall trees

I tend to have nice yields and quality using the combination of flats and verts and prefer that style for my garden

I personally find the verts are a bitch to work around ,and one would think after getting burned numerous times I would remember they're hanging there.......:eek:
Eye protection is a must working around the verts!

In my experience,strain selection is key to getting over 2 lbs a plant indoors
I tend to find with a Diesel or Chem style plant large yields are pretty easy to accomplish indoors
A Bubba or OG type plant is much more challenging for me

The Last Sledge Hammer Bubba I ran was 3 feet wide and 3 1/2 feet tall and put off 11 oz's........this one is 4 1/2 feet wide and over four feet tall so I'm hoping it will yield a lb or more...

Years ago I ran a hybrid system where the bottom 3 inches of the 20 gallon pots contained hydroton
I put airstones in the bottom of each container and in each tray and aerated them constantly with aquarium pumps,this encouraged roots to grow out the drainage holes into the trays

I never found this caused much of an effect one way or the other ,but it sure looked cool and hi tech for organic soil......
I scrapped this idea after a few runs........

I'm looking forward to seeing what other farmers are doing with their tree's:)
IMG_9486.JPG
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

ummm

by definition soil is any media with sand, silt, or clay (or any combination of).

hydro is everything else. "working water" hanging gardens of babylon one of the first known examples.
The definition of hydroponics is all about how the nutes are made available to the plant. I've worked in greenhouses where they fed the crops while they were growing in sand. Why was this still hydroponics? Because all the nutrients came from the water, not the sand.

The 'working' part of hydro refers to the water doing the work of carrying the nutrients, not just being there.
 
Theoneandonly Z

Theoneandonly Z

This is incorrect. If your definition was the case, then pouring water on the ground for farm crops would be hydroponics.

Hydroponics is, by broadly accepted definition, the practice of FEEDING the plant primarily or exclusively through nutrients held in solution in the water. Whether the roots of that plant dangle in water, or sit in sand, chow mix, soilless mix or what have you doesnt matter.

If the substrate is making the Primary contribution of nutrients to the plant, it's not hydroponics. This is true whether you're watering by hand or via automated equipment. Does the sprinkler system watering your front yard make your lawn hydroponic? Not unless you put your nutes in the water first.

I'm not here to argue the merits of one approach over another- indeed, I'm subbed to this thread because I'm looking forward to seeing what people out there are running!
no arguements here. no point in arguing definitions. From truegrits post, i think he meant hydro as a self feeding system such as: ebb n flow/flood n drain, DWC, UC.... automated feeding. i mix my nutrient solutions 2-3 times a week and simply water by hand, 8 oz of liquid at a time - not hydroponics in my book. more strenuous with larger plants, for they need more water, but its habit now.

keep the good vibes and way to keep the thread on topic!
Z
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

no arguements here. no point in arguing definitions. From truegrits post, i think he meant hydro as a self feeding system such as: ebb n flow/flood n drain, DWC, UC.... automated feeding. i mix my nutrient solutions 2-3 times a week and simply water by hand, 8 oz of liquid at a time - not hydroponics in my book. more strenuous with larger plants, for they need more water, but its habit now.

keep the good vibes and way to keep the thread on topic!
Z
The point to 'arguing definitions' is so that when we use words, we can be reasonably sure the other person understands what we mean. If definitions get sloppy, then understanding can easily fail. This is exactly why each profession and their supporting organizations so fiercely guard their industry specific jargon- it's so professionals can talk about technical details using language everyone understands.

This is a profession, at least for some of us, and therefore it's important to be aware of what words and concepts mean- and to use them correctly. The alternative is babylon.
 
Theoneandonly Z

Theoneandonly Z

The point to 'arguing definitions' is so that when we use words, we can be reasonably sure the other person understands what we mean. If definitions get sloppy, then understanding can easily fail. This is exactly why each profession and their supporting organizations so fiercely guard their industry specific jargon- is so professionals can talk about technical details using language everyone understands.

This is a profession, at least for some of us, and therefore it's important to be aware of what words and concepts mean- and to use them correctly. The alternative is babylon.
Agreed here, im just not one to fight the good fight, i let the other guys do that and i take my 2 cents in stride.

keep up the good work, im glad you value cultivation as a profession (i assume). for i have upmost respect for your input and agree with much of.
CheerZ
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Agreed here, im just not one to fight the good fight, i let the other guys do that and i take my 2 cents in stride.

keep up the good work, im glad you value cultivation as a profession (i assume). for i have upmost respect for your input and agree with much of.
CheerZ
We might not look like traditional farmers, but our traditions share more similarities than differences.

We are laying the groundwork today that tomorrow's accomplishments will be built on. We have to look ahead and plan through the next harvest. We are trying to find ways to increase production and yields- my specialty here.

All of us here on the Farm have the chance to make a lasting contribution. It doesn't matter what we grow, as long as we share our experience.
 
true grit

true grit

So very nice Z, hittin 1.5 with 600's is really solid. In over heard right now i run anywhere between 4-6 plants but have gotten decent weight with as few as 3 per if vegged big enough...usually thats extra moms tho. never tried just 2 per light. Im def moving back toward super soil, will probably start in my overhead beds next run with some. Ive done Subs mix before and with vert, yields are still top notch had i used teas prob coulda been a whole other beast. Gonna do some different mixes this next time around tho.

@Greenleaf- sounds like a kickass scrog. Did you hit the weights you were shooting for in said set up? I can imagine it looking like one fo the big rdwc screens but with fat ass smart pots under! As for organics...i'd say i pretty much veg trees already compared to most folks plants and i just feed bio bizz all the way thru. Usually flip 3ft plants with 15+ tops and screen down heavily. I do think if you are running larger tubs/containers that super soil is awesome for beast plants, just takes time figuring out what all the plants need exactly in the mix.

@Dynamite- I know you crushing it broham. Ive always figured if folks are hittin lb+ trees in overhead...no reason i cant average that with big trees in vert which is where I'm heading with all this. My friends really dig the rockwool croutons, im gonna try and keep the vert runs as soil based as possible tho.

@Waayne- Awesome man, now thats what I'm talking about. I didn't think to mention in my first post i was referring to growing non hydro trees in vert but realized lotsa farmers grow trees period! Def should be a fun thread.

I know ive talked to you about wanting to stick to kushes lately but have you found any heavy kushes that can consistently push a lb plus in weight? Or am i dreamweaving/giving myself lofty goals? lol. When i veg trees for vert, i used similar methods you do- staying way on top of transplants as to not stifle root growth. i would usually end up in a 5 or 7 before uppotting to final 10-15 or 18g tub. I think with how much soil was left after each grow i might be fine pushing shit in 15g and feeding if necessary.

I see you don't alway top, are with you Cap in finding a christmas tree style does well for you? I top and train heavily no matter what i flip. My average plants for overhead are around 2.5-3ft tall at flip with 12-20 dominant tops to play with. I would assume giving yourself as many tops to make colas would be advantageous in vert grows no? Once defoliated you can easily have 10 plus good tops plus side branching. Right now plants like that limit lateral growth and just throw up lotta tops through screens for me. I'm kinda picturing doing the same and using cages to keep shit in line with verts around.

I can def see strain selection playing a huge role in weight as well. I have some chem dom plants that could beast out in vert but id def need to either not top them or veg appropriately. In the past the ones with long running colas vs. kush nugs def made yields way easier.

@ttystikk- Ya I'm looking at switching back to vert trees grown in super soil or a mix there of. When i first jumped on the site i didn't have my clones in order after moving and set up a 6200w vert room with 8-9 plants in 10-18g tubs of super soil. I had to run all plants from seed, so phenos/weight were all over the place but for 3 rounds or so i got a good idea on how to run trees inside. I hit right at a lb before but most were anywhere from 6oz-12oz. Smallest being some tiny white bubbas that hit 4-5oz. But that kinda showed me the potential after random ones were hittin solid weight across the board. I then switched to lotta plants in same vert set up and eventually back to overhead...at which point i dialed the room, put in ac, etc. I tried some vert scrogs since then as well and got good results but nothing like Cap's wall o dank or selfhemployeds vert. The scrog took to much space for me for what i was getting so i went back to over head.

Lately ive been running a buncha OG's, cookies etc and though weight has been solid, i bet i can hit the same with some well done vert trees. I've seen several non hydro cats breaking lb+ mark and some hittin 2lbs in coco/chow mixes/or waayne status so that gives me hope in being able to build a simple set up pulling 2lbs a light or better eventually. i also miss how easy it was vegging only 8-9 trees a run and the extra numbers i could use for test/seed runs if i went that route.

Things I learned from previous runs:
Defoliate heavily and get way better penetration.
Proper caging/support is crucial
know the stretch on your plants
vert often keeps stretch minimal compared to overhead
if in super soil- dial your mix to plants or use weaker mix and supplement base/act's
I often used too big a container/or didn't optimize growth

Things im curious on:
will rotating a plant 180 degrees that only has 2 sides act as full light
what kind of topping/training will be ideal to maximize weight
do cool tubes limit yield? All my previous vert runs i had to utilize cool tubes due to no AC...now have proper AC.

Ideally I'd like to look at going back to a 8-9 plants set up with 4-5k again. If casters don't work the way im thinking, then def adding a few more 600's to add some side light for extra plants.
 
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