Not your normal 'yellowing' fan/sugar leaves?

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shades

shades

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Hey Fam,

I'm close to the finish line and the problems are starting to get very concerning.

I wasn't worried at first because I was told it's normal for leaves to yellow up and die off as the plant approaches the end of it's life cycle.

After discovering what appears to be webs/mold/mildew(other thread post about this)??? I started inspecting the plants more closely.

I'm noticing something that appears to be different than just regular yellowing. . .

The stalks, bud sites, sugar leaves all appear to be a dark green (but not quite too dark that it's nitrogen excess?) but at the very end of the sugar leaves there is a bit of discoloration. This discoloration seems to be distinctly different than the green=>yellow=>line of red/brown type of discoloration typically witnessed due to over fertilization but in roughly the same location, the tips of sugar/fan leaves.

It appears to be a deep green followed by a *sudden* break of color not quite to yellow as witnessed with nitrogen deficiency but closer to a pale white more typically witnessed from light burn when plants get too close to the light. The fact that this is occurring absolutely /no where near/ the danger zone of being too close to the lights I'm starting to worry about bud rot/disease/etc.

This is occurring sparsely primarily on lower branches and areas where there isn't as much light. If I rub the part of the damaged leaf in question it kinda tends to flake away into confetti which my 120 mm fans seem to just blow away before it settles. Only the pale part of the sugar leaf flakes away.

Should I harvest any of the branches this is occurring to immediately (as of, right now even though it's lights out)? Is this normal and not a reason of concern? I spent a lot of time researching toxicity and deficiencies regarding nutrients earlier last year and didn't really come across anything that looks like a deficiency/toxicity. If I were to be asked out of context what this looked like I would immediately say, 'light burn'. What does Dr. House say now that it's disclosed that said effected area was no where near a zone that could cause light burn? It looks like light burn but if it /were actually/ light burn I suspect a much larger area to show damage than what's present.

I can cut an area in question off to place under a microscope if required. It's rated 50-1600x and it's basically got 3 different focal lengths that give a clear enough image for a diagnosis. Lets call those 1, 2, 3. At setting 1, I can hold it (2-3" away from a plant) not rested on anything and use my other hand to push the mouse on my computer to make it snap a shot. At setting 2 the focal knob is more zoomed in and I basically have to rest the microscope against the flower (which I don't like to do because it crushes tricchromes, they get on the plastic part of the microscope, gives potential to contaminate) to get a clear image. My hands lack the stillness of a lotus flower to be able to get a clear shot just holding it. At setting 3, it basically has to be sitting flat on a desk as any slightest nudge brings it out of focus. The aperture also starts to extend past the viewing angle of the LEDs and if I try to get TOO close it just blacks out the image.

The ones I am most concerned about are the purple cultivars. They appear to be mostly clear and cloudy with no amber trichromes yet. The other plants are just starting to amber (the tops of the plants anyway) and could probably be harvested immediately without worrying about them not being ripe 'enough' yet.

Sorry about the blurple. I had only two lighting options: Blurple and lights-out-with-camera-flash-and-room-ceiling-light-on, so I took both.

I highlighted the areas of interest in red so you're not staring at the thing like it's a damn CAPTCHA

"high light all of the images with stop lights and nitrogen toxicity" => F, U, Google.

I can re upload any image in a new post if the highlighting is obscuring some critical detail. If something anomalous is present that isn't highlight, I would also be appreciative if someone brought that to my immediate attention.

Plant layout is:


#13 #5 #20
#19 #3 #6
#1 #10 #11

What I have been feeding them:

Jacks 3-2-1 full strength. At first this seemed too strong so I cut it down to 3grams A, 2 grams B, 1 gram MgSO4 per four liters.
I mix 16 liters of feed at a time. I'm adding
5:2
humic acid: kelp
with a pinch of yucca (1.28 g/16 liters)

I was feeding them this with no water in between feedings. I had good experience with this [Aug '20] after listening to Dr. Bruce Bugsbee's lectures using some 20-10-20 orchid fertilizer I got on amazon. I then [Sep '20] switched over to RAW NPK grow and bloom formulas (for when it was in veg and then in bloom). When feeding RAW NPK, I fed it with fertilizer, then the next watering was just CalMag, then with fertilizer. When [Oct '20] I ran out of bloom formula I switched over to Jack's 3-2-1 and have been feeding it every day this way for several weeks. For the last few weeks I increased the fertigation to twice a day. Instead of feeding it 750 ml in the morning it was getting 500ml at lights on and 500ml just before lights out. Since it would take a while to drain into the runoff collection pans and I was trying to minimize my workload my workflow consisted of:

Open Tent
Pour collection plate #1 into vessel #1
Repeat for all plants with corresponding #
Water each plant 500ml
close tent
carry vessel collection tray into garage
log each speicmin's runoff TDS, PPM, pH, weight.
discard fertilizer into lawn outside.

I watered my veg tent today with enough water to produce maybe 10% runoff. I haven't yet watered the flowering tent as flowering is supposed to be drier than vegging... but I do plan on watering them at lights on until 10%~ runoff, now that I have that second dehumidifier in my room helping things dry out.

My vivosun TDS meter and my HM TDS meter seem to report results sometimes off by 1000 microsiemens, and it's consistently the VIVOSUN that reads higher. When I measure the plant food BEFORE watering them they're reporting a value within a few HUNDRED not THOUSAND of each other. When I measure the water before putting any food into it they are within TENS of each other. The higher the conductivity the greater margin of error... Since both meters are reporting *consistently* is this just my 'margin of error' or is one or both meters fucked? I had purchased calibration solution for my HM meter and that hasn't really seemed to drastically effect my measurements in anyway. If you read the log book and didn't check the comments you'd be real hard pressed to determine when it was re calibrated based on just staring at the run off TDS/PPMs...

Images Below:


CAM00172
CAM00171


This is happening to #3 Notice how this is most noticeable on the absolute most bottom stalk. I don't think I see anything like this occurring anywhere higher on this plant in that amount.
CAM00170


The big red circle to the left. Normal yellowing? Or is this some sort of deficiency. The leaf almost seems to curl down like it was nitrogen toxic before yellowing up and dying off. The area in between the dead and living tissue seems to reflect a lot of light. Next to the circles on the right it appears that there might be some nitrogen toxicity?
CAM00169


This is from plant #1. I went and clipped more plant matter from plant #1 to isolate from the tent and be processed into hash.
CAM00168


Plant #1
CAM00167

I think this is from #11. The only purple ones are 3, 5, 6, 11. Also out of the purple ones this is the only one that this is happening to the top stalks not bottom ones (which it doesn't really have because it was lollipopped much earlier in it's life cycle).
CAM00166



#6 Again more noticeable on stalks originating lower on the plant even if said stalk goes higher than the stalk above it. Clear and cloudy trichromes for this one as well. Will some cultivars simply not amber and just get cloudier and cloudier until they go bad? Could the purple be throwing off the amber to make it appear cloudy? Out of the microscope shots I've seen online and taken myself; only the plants that are purple failed to show any amber as of yet.
CAM00165



Closer of #6
CAM00164



The plant in the corner is #20. Below it to the right is #6. #20's fan leaves are yellowing off as I was told would happen. However #6 still shows dark green leaves no where near INDICAtive of being harvested yet. I'm surprised by this because I read that the indicas flowering cycle is shorter than the sativa's. I have read on multiple web pages that sativas take longer to flower than indicas but in this current crop it appears that the sativas are nearing the end of their flowering cycle before the indicas are.
CAM00163


Plant #3 is showing clear and cloudy with no amber yet.
CAM00162


Even under the blurple you can see the areas in question appear almost florescent or glow-in-the-dark
CAM00161


All clear and cloudy trichromes. Nothing amber yet. Not on the flowers, not on the sugar leaves.
CAM00160



The hairs on the top appear ripe however the hairs out of the bottom red circle are clearly white and not ripe enough yet.
CAM00159



#1
CAM00158



#1
CAM00157


#11
CAM00156
 
mysticepipedon

mysticepipedon

1,833
263
A lot of those COULD be leaf tip burn or COULD be a deficiency or lockout of potassium, but you are pretty far along in flower. I think you've got what you've got.

Fungus generally doesn't only appear on leaf tips. Those buds look small to have bud rot, but if you want to tug on them to be sure, go ahead. (If a bud leaf pulls out easily, there is rot in there.)
 
shades

shades

56
8
A lot of those COULD be leaf tip burn or COULD be a deficiency or lockout of potassium, but you are pretty far along in flower. I think you've got what you've got.

Fungus generally doesn't only appear on leaf tips. Those buds look small to have bud rot, but if you want to tug on them to be sure, go ahead. (If a bud leaf pulls out easily, there is rot in there.)

They don't really tug off, I checked this actually before reading this post. The stuff I did take to the garage to be processed into hash I haven't yet tugged apart but I'm planning on washing them with H2O2 and then H2O, putting in a jar, shaking, and siphoning off the top. this batch will just be what I think is contaminated material, the safe stuff I will wait to process until I can clean my bubble bags. cold water sans soap or alcohol to clean it though is what worries me. Can I leave them outside in the winter cold to let UV try and take out any spores or is this not a good idea for the material they make those bubble bags out of? These ones are meshed on all sides not just the bottom.

What would have caused potassium lockout? My pH meter is broke atm and I am waiting on a new one to come before I can start reading run off pH. I've been pretty lucky as after mixing with my water here it's anywhere from 6.0 to 6.3 pH according to my mix logs.
 
mysticepipedon

mysticepipedon

1,833
263
Calcium, phosphorus and nitrogen can reduce potassium uptake. Do a google search for "Mulders Chart" for a good overview of the situation.

Potassium problems make me wish for a pH problem, trying to figure it out. I usually end up just adding more potassium and hoping for the best.
 
shades

shades

56
8
. I think you've got what you've got.

I would almost agree with you but the flowers actually are still getting bigger. I thought it was gonna be finishline like 1-2.5 weeks ago but like, as much growth as I'm seeing maybe another week or two? The indicas might need more? who knows, shit can change day to week. I'm going to be looking at the trichromes a lot more freuqently.
 
mysticepipedon

mysticepipedon

1,833
263
I would almost agree with you but the flowers actually are still getting bigger. I thought it was gonna be finishline like 1-2.5 weeks ago but like, as much growth as I'm seeing maybe another week or two? The indicas might need more? who knows, shit can change day to week. I'm going to be looking at the trichromes a lot more freuqently.
I wasn't suggesting you harvest early. I would wait until I saw the amount of amber I like to see.

When a plant has an issue or two, it often doesn't effect potency, just yield. Go for the gusto, IMO.
 
amekins

amekins

2,631
263
Calcium, phosphorus and nitrogen can reduce potassium uptake. Do a google search for "Mulders Chart" for a good overview of the situation.

Potassium problems make me wish for a pH problem, trying to figure it out. I usually end up just adding more potassium and hoping for the best.
Muller’s Chart was new to me and led to this article which I found helpful as a new grower. Thank you!

 
chemistry

chemistry

3,737
263
Fourth pic up from the bottom, looks like it has 3 black beetles on the stem your holding, and one on the dead bit of leaf at the bottom of the pic, might be wrong, maybe its just compost. CAM00159.jpg
 

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