Yeah that is pure PEG so it would have to be mixed with a lot of water because it is so thick. PEG 8000 is probably better for foliar. PEG is just a type of surfactant, anyone would be fine (yucca, soap, aloe etc)
Determination of spray formulation. The optimal concentration of each active agent to be included in a final spray formulation was determined by factorial design experiments conducted on plant foliage and flowers. The initial test solution contained concentrations of each agent cited in literature above to be optimally effective in eliciting their respective desired effects in plant tissues: 4% [w/v (2.5 mM)] PEG 8000... concentrated AgSil 25 (10 mM final silicate concentration)...
...concentrate added to laboratory tap water. Tap water (pH 7.9 to 8.1) rather than distilled water was used to bring formulations to desired volume because, in practice, end users would be expected to use available tap water...
This thread got really interesting the past few pages. Thank you all for being skeptical and informative. Osa28 definitely seems to work better as a foliar for me. It works but I agree that the price is just wack. All of the prices for these bottles are wack for that matter. My current mild supersoil run with a nectar for the gods feeding once a week is killing it...always has and always will. I'm sticking with the kiss method with these plants from now on!
Seems like there are 2 main points of debate revolving around this. A. It's cost. B. does it work "better or different" than cheap stuff.
First with the cost. Is this expensive? sure. However, I would also portend that any base nutes that cost more than 2 cents per gallon is also expensive. We live in an industry of "luxury" in regards to how much we can put in these plants. Compared to many other industries; even a 5 cents per gallon nute cost would be losing money. There is very little that we purchase for our plants that will actually pay for itself; considered by itself at least.
-------------------------------------
The primary function of "silicas" are to increase resistance to infection / disease and to strengthen certain cellular structures; That's it. Si directly "is not intended" to "increase your weight"; unless you have disease or other issues already reducing your yield. I guess it could likened to "undercoating" or "rhino lining" in automotive.
Myself, I was taught to never take things at face value and to always do your own research; to confirm or deny validity. With growing specifically; I've questioned many of these things. Is high P required in bloom. Does a plant use more K in bloom. etc. As well, if a brand may claim something different as we see with the OSA debate.
For me, to personally decide if this is hogwash or not; I tried to look up a bit of history or evolution of this. The result was that I AM now using this type of product and do feel there's validity. I guess, for me and with this specific item (I'm kind of odd here); I feel I will either add an OSA product OR I will not add silicon at all. Not because the cheap stuff won't do "something", but because if I AM adding it; why not do it the best way possible?
--------------------------------------------
It was mentioned recently about how "low" the ppm of Si is in these products as a negative. To me imho, if <2ppm of Si in OSA gives the same (or better) results as say pro-tekt at 100ppm; does that not in itself prove it's more available? Try running any of the "other" forms of Si @ a concentration of less than 2ppm and see how it compares there; "apples to apples".
It was recently mentioned that many dry products are micronized and why that would not work the same. Interestingly enough, if we look at the history of application with this type of product; that is exactly where it started and where problems were found. For this we would need to go to a 1950's patent. https://www.google.com/patents/US2630410
Union Carbide was dealing with micronizing silica's and having issues with gelling in other industrial applications. The patent above was the first such to add various products (chemicals / salts) to prevent or avert gelling. Boric compounds were utilized to help stabilize against he formation of gels.
Moving forward we know that boron or boric compounds can aid in the stability Si solutions. As well boron has anitfungal, insecticidal and herbicidal properties (depending on concentrations). Further it was found that by using a specific process and a humectant; that this solution could be further stabilized for longer periods (up to 1 year) and at higher concentrations than previous. As well the that the maximum concentration of Si in solution is still quite limited.
More specifically to prophylactic application and related to our plants; there was a very good patent in the early 2000's that covered a bit of testing. This patent is a very good read overall. https://www.google.com/patents/US20060178268
From this patent:
"The present invention includes an aqueous solution, comprising boric acid and non-colloidal silicic acid. This solution can also comprise a water absorbing additive. The solution contains bioavailable non-colloidal silicic acid, and the solution is stable for >1 year.
The invention also comprises a method for the preparation of absolution in which one or more silicon and boron compounds are hydrolysed in an acidic solution containing one ore more dissolved (strong) water absorbing additives (humectant).
The invention also includes the use of this solution, in which, after dilution, the solution is added to plants or trees, to increase its resistance against one or more of the group of microbial infection, insects, pests, fungi, weeds, or extreme physical conditions or fed to fish. The invention also comprises the use of the solution, for use to strengthen connective tissue, bones, skin, nails, arteries, cartilage and joints in animals and humans."
"It has now surprisingly been found that the bioavailability of a combination of non-colloidal silicic acid in combination with boric acid gives an enhanced bioavailability of the silicic acid.
The effects that are found are not found for one of these weak acids, but only when they are used in combination. The biological effects of adding silicic acid is much larger, when boric acid is added."
"The function of boron as synergetic element in the solution with non-colloidal silicic acid is only present when the ratio of boron to silicon is not too high. The solution according to the present invention has a silicon-boron ratio between 1 and 1000."
"Since the silicic acid should be present in a non-colloidal form to be bioavailable, formation of colloidal silicic acid should be prevented. This can be done by choosing the right concentration, e.g. a concentration below approximately 10−4 mol Si."
"It has now surprisingly been found that a combination of a silicic acid, boric acid, and a strong water absorbing additive (a humectant, which is able to absorb water, to keep it absorbed and to prevent water from evaporating), can solve this problem. In this embodiment, the solution can now comprise high concentrations of non-colloidal silicic acid (e.g. 2 wt. % Si is reached), maintain the synergetic effect of the presence of boric acid, when the solution also comprises a water absorbing additive"
"The biological activity of the solution of the invention is surprisingly due to these particles: the small oligomers of silicic acid in combination with boric acid. Pure silicic acid has a lower activity. The humectant enables high concentration of silicic acid (non-colloidal silica) and prevents aggregation. Aggregation of these particles results in opalescence, turbidity, light reflection, colloid and gel formation and thus loss of bioactivity."
Results and testing section of patent: "Good results, e.g. on fruit like bananas, apples, grapes, pears, etc., on rice, unions, potatoes, tomatoes, etc., but also on flowers etc., can e.g. be obtained with a solution that has a Si concentration of about 0.1 to 1, preferably about 0.2 to 0.6 wt. %, a B concentration of about 0.01 to 0.5, preferably about 0.05 to 0.2 wt. %, and as humectant PEG 400 in an amount of about 30 to 60, preferably about 35 to 50 wt. %. The pH of this solution is about 0.3 to 0.7, preferably about 0.4 to 0.6."
"Experiment 1: Influence of Boron on Silicon Toxicity In our experiments the leaves of salad plants (cobbage lettuce) were sprayed with freshly made soluble orthosilicic and non-colloidal silicon solutions at 0.01% (W/V)) Si in propylene glycol 5% (V/V) every day for two weeks. Potassium silicate was used as source for Si. The solutions were freshly used; no filtration was applied. Plant growth was completely stopped and the plants became very rigid. Addition of 0.001% boron as boric acid to the silicic acid solution decreased the toxicity again (growth) but plants were still too rigid. Control experiments with only 0.001% Boron in 5% propylene glycol showed no effect (placebo). This shows that boric acid is involved in the metabolism of silicic acid and that the ratio Si/B is important."
"Experiment 2: Antimicrobial Activity of Boric Acid With or Without Silicon "After ±2 months omnipresent Phytophthora infection started on the leaves of the potato plants. All control plants showed green to black spots on the leaves and became slowly necrotic. Surprisingly, all boron treated plants were also infected, except the plants treated with silicon (10 μg/ml) and low concentrations of boric acid, when the boron concentration was not higher than the silicon concentration.
High concentrated boron solutions even showed toxic reactions (necrotic effects on leaves such as black spots, holes, etc.) after 1 week treatment of the plants (1%, and 0.1% and 0.03% boric acid) but no antifungal effect. Silicon alone only retarded somewhat the fingal infection. All silicon treated plants were stronger (even without boron). From 0.003% boric acid on, plant leaves were stronger and fungal infection decreased. The best results showed about 70% reduction of intoxicated plants"
"Boron and silicon at low concentrations show a synergetic effect on plant resistance to fungal infection. Boron acts as a co-factor for the silicon activity against fungal infection. Combined acids in a slightly acidic medium are effectively absorbed through the leaves of the plants."
Experiment 5: Preparation of Stock solutions: Test of the Stability in Time "These stock solutions contained up to 1% Silicon and up to 0.1% Boron. Only addition of highly concentrated humectants such as non-toxic food additives like polysorbates, polyethylene glycols, propylene glycol, urea, polydextrose, sorbitol, etc. resulted in stable solutions of both weak acids."
"It was concluded that the humectant concentration must be at least 30%, preferably 40%, in the final acidified stock solution to inhibit colloid formation."
"The best results for preventive antifungal activity and increased plant growth was silicon/boron >1.5 The ratio could even be extended up to 300 without losing big biological activity. It is totally new that very low concentrations of boric acid increase the activity of silicic acid and act as co-factor."
Experiment 8: Test With Patients "10 volunteers (2 men, 8 women) in good general health condition, no hair, skin or nail diseases, normal hair and nail growth were chosen. Some older (30%) patients had rheumatic complains."
"Conclusion after 3 months consumption of the different solutions. A remarkable effect on nail and hair growth was found:
70% of all patients found no effect after taking solution d (only boron),
80% of all patients found no effect after taking solution b (only silicon).
80% of all patients found no effect after taking solution c (the placebo),
90% of all patients found drastic effects after taking solution a. (boron (0.03% W/V B) and silicon (0.5% W/V Si)
The patent goes on further with hair testing, disease resistance for fish etc. too. So, the above patents and researching is why I "personally" decided for me; this is how it should be added if at all. I suppose, this is not some new fandangled product that has no history; there's over 60 years of research with it.
We called the lab who did the report. They didnt test for Silicic acid! We encourage everyone to call Thornton labs in FL and speak with Steve Fickett. This OSA28 is BS and thats sure to come out in the near future. Donny from tru bloomz is robbing growers again, not there grow rooms this time but their hard earned cash dang!..... his puppet Rob from Aptus who got fired for stealing shit. Whats this industry coming too.
Awesome debate fellas. Seriously, everyone has a different way of doing things. Some people won't drive anything 'below' than a Benz, some can't imagine driving a Ferrari, some LOVE their Kia. Different strokes. I'm just glad people are talking about silicon so much these days. Even a couple years ago fertilizer agencies didn't even acknowledge that silicon was BENEFICIAL for plants! Now this lively debate isn't questioning the relevance of silicon, only the application and products. This is progress.
There are many ways to grow. There are many ways to get good results. Ultimately the grower makes the garden. And yeah dialing in your environment is worth more weight than another bottle of whatever. OSA/28 isn't the right solution for everyone anymore than New York pizza is the best pizza (for everyone).
Appreciate ya'll keeping it titillating but civil.
how did you become a staff member, so fast? i thought you have to fulfill certain requirements on the forum or does Logic just decide? damn all about getting in bed with the right people.. i got a sample of your product i will post my results on the farm.
how did you become a staff member, so fast? i thought you have to fulfill certain requirements on the forum or does Logic just decide? damn all about getting in bed with the right people.. i got a sample of your product i will post my results on the farm.
Vang how you doing i dnt know you by your forum name but this is donny who ever did the millspaysthebill name on here.I spoke with chris owner from mills. we really don't know who would come up with something like that like you said you go to tru bloomz so you know me.im a worker just like everyone else and rob is a honest hard working gentleman so who ever made that post his issues with us so they making up lies.... I Def don't like taking money like the post claims I'm looking how to drop osa price so stay tuned....working on it.....
how did you become a staff member, so fast? i thought you have to fulfill certain requirements on the forum or does Logic just decide? damn all about getting in bed with the right people.. i got a sample of your product i will post my results on the farm.
This last run with heavy >> i add osa28 1st 2 my water>> then add any additives i might add 4 that feeding then add base nutes till i hit my desired ppms.. with h16 usually my ph is on point without needing 2 do any adjustments... i havent tried osa28 with any other nute line yet
This last run with heavy >> i add osa28 1st 2 my water>> then add any additives i might add 4 that feeding then add base nutes till i hit my desired ppms.. with h16 usually my ph is on point without needing 2 do any adjustments... i havent tried osa28 with any other nute line yet
im using heavy 16 aswell, so your suppose to add osa, then the additives and then the base nutes? i always assumed its osa, then base nutes and then additives... also when i added my osa it dropped the ph doen to like 3.4 and then rose after i added the base but still was like 5.1 after all of that...
im using heavy 16 aswell, so your suppose to add osa, then the additives and then the base nutes? i always assumed its osa, then base nutes and then additives... also when i added my osa it dropped the ph doen to like 3.4 and then rose after i added the base but still was like 5.1 after all of that...
Thats how i do it anyways... in flower ill add everything & it hits 6.3 exactly with my water source but in veg id need 2 ph down a bit..
Im not sure if its needed 2 do it in that order thats juss how i do it... osa should always b added 1st tho
Thats how i do it anyways... in flower ill add everything & it hits 6.3 exactly with my water source but in veg id need 2 ph down a bit..
Im not sure if its needed 2 do it in that order thats juss how i do it... osa should always b added 1st tho
ok thanks man, quick question? This is the first time im running heavy 16 full lineup alone without APTUS. Basically veg a-b, foliar, bud a-b,fire,prime and finish, NO roots.. if i follow that lineup correctly then im only using veg a and b during veg, is that all im suppose to be using? Do i need to maybe get some cal mag? or do i need micro nutes? almost every other nute line out there has so many products in there lineup, is there anything heavy 16 line lacks?
ok thanks man, quick question? This is the first time im running heavy 16 full lineup alone without APTUS. Basically veg a-b, foliar, bud a-b,fire,prime and finish, NO roots.. if i follow that lineup correctly then im only using veg a and b during veg, is that all im suppose to be using? Do i need to maybe get some cal mag? or do i need micro nutes? almost every other nute line out there has so many products in there lineup, is there anything heavy 16 line lacks?
The H16 line is a complete line & 4 me nothing else is needed >> no extra calmag or anything (with the strains i run) i belive the base nutes r all thats really needed>> the additives r juss like sides in a meal << there good but not needed if u eat more of the main course (Base nutes)
I also dont go by the chart>>the additives dont add much ppm so i use those pretty much as the chart recomends but my base a&B is used way less then the chart recomends. .i juss go by ppm when mixing any base
Nutes..
In veg my plants get plain water the 1st few weeks (in soil) then the last few weeks b4 flower i hit them with base,roots,fire,prime, & finish>> with only added osa or Fasilitor..
Foliar sprayed a few times a week with foliar,roots,& fire << mid veg 2 mid bloom!!
Ive ran out of h16 additives & did a full killer run with only veg a&b & bloom a&b
heavy is where its at been running it for years the only thing better is to use the Base with Aptus I think both are winner just like the bigger yields with the base and aptus
heavy is where its at been running it for years the only thing better is to use the Base with Aptus I think both are winner just like the bigger yields with the base and aptus
Its lookin very similar at the 1/2 way point with nice size lil nugs using h16 full line but with added fasilitor same with h16 full line + OSA28 << im hoping 4 them results like the H16 base + Aptus full line << that run kicked ass
I remember asking for info a few years back when I started to use Aptus Regulator or in the USA its called Fasilitor any way we made the switch to using PH ups that contain Active ingredient: potassium hydroxide This is what we have been using for year a little bit goes a mile
