Plant Weakening Using Clones Of Clones… Of Clones

[ziplock]

I've heard that taking clones from a plant in veg, then cloning the resulting plant will eventually weaken that phenotype. How does this happen? I have had a favorite strain (Ziplock) that came from bag seed about 7 generations ago. The newest clones are tending toward 3 fingered leaves, and plants are producing more 3-fingered leaves and getting less productive. Will breeding them with a stronger strain bring back it's vigor? Force a female Ziplock to hermie and pollinate another Ziplock female? I've heard pros & cons on this. Any suggestions out there?

 

[Wisher619]

you should look to systemic virus for the answer.....some strains have been going as clones for 20-30 years....and still going strong

 

[mittenmedgrow]

you should look to systemic virus for the answer.....some strains have been going as clones for 20-30 years....and still going strong

I have a couple around here from the late 90s that are still the same after all there years. No fade at all to them

 

[Wisher619]

I would let it grow out and take a cut from the top......make sure it looks as healthy as possible......soak it in 10% bleach solution for 15 minutes.....then rinse well in clean fresh water.....root......isolate that clone once rooted and grow ....if it was a virus then this cutting should pull through...if not and it is still running a reduction in vigor....I would look to enviroment for solutions

 

[mittenmedgrow]

When you say soak in bleach you talking submerged or just stem

 

[Wisher619]

I actually soak completely and shake vigorously in the solution......ofcourse when rooting the look like shit but once rooted and put into an optimal enviroment.....they will burst with growth....I had to do it twice in the past 3 grows once because of infestation and the second because of PM....had to restart the mothers

 

[ShroomKing]

I would also add a soaking in some og biowar beneficials after the bleach and rinse, just to up your game. It's great on cuttings as a presoak to cloning. I add 1/2 tsp of the nute pack and root pack to 1 gallon of 6.0 pH ro water and soak the cuttings for 15 mins.

Once you get them rooted and transplanted you can use 1 crushed 325mg tablet of bayer aspirin per gallon of water , with nutrients and whatnot , to boost your plants natural immune system.

Best of luck.
Peace

 

[Seamaiden]

I've heard that taking clones from a plant in veg, then cloning the resulting plant will eventually weaken that phenotype. How does this happen? I have had a favorite strain (Ziplock) that came from bag seed about 7 generations ago. The newest clones are tending toward 3 fingered leaves, and plants are producing more 3-fingered leaves and getting less productive. Will breeding them with a stronger strain bring back it's vigor? Force a female Ziplock to hermie and pollinate another Ziplock female? I've heard pros & cons on this. Any suggestions out there?

I think that's bro-science that you heard. Read my thread on three fingered leaves, especially if that cut is NOT an OG. Grow it on an 18/6 until it's straightened out before taking anymore cuts.

 

[Wisher619]

yes Sea...I would like to add to that....when taking clones....once rooted.....let it veg for at least 2 weeks under 18/6....if it is still doing it then let it go another 2...if is still doing this then look to virus IMO

 

[shemshemet]

Ok to add a bit that wasn't said. There is some amount of truth to the genetic drift thing.

First off #1 genetics are genetics. Plants are either in vegetative, or flowering stage (or somewhere fucked up in between, hormonal imbalance)

Clones are pieces of plant material taken from one plant, rooted elsewhere.

Technically you can go years and years and years of cutting from the same plant making new clones. There is also no reason you cannot take a clone, wait for it to root, take another clone, ad infinitum.

BUT there is MORE risk of genetic drift occurring if you use the latter strategy.

WHY?!?! You said it is fine to do!!

Well...mutation happens. And if you take a cut that it's dna has been mutated, and now represents that trait, then the new rooted cut will also show the mutation.

Using 1 mother plant to take all cuts from, your whole plant is far far far less likely to mutate than just one branch. So you do not keep your mutation.

Edit: The mutation COULD be less vigor for any particular reason.

 

[The Terps]

The reason we call them cones is because it is the exact same DNA from the plant. Not kinda close to it, it is the same exact thing as when you took said cutting.if what you said were true we should call all cuts similar but different copies not clones. And that's what they are exact copies. Everything else is grower/environment issues.

 

[Wisher619]

this topic has been studied extensively.....by many top notch growers in this industry .....all of them have come to one conclusion....there is NO SUCH THING AS GENETIC DRIFT.....PERIOD......
when taking cuttings you should always take from the top where the largest concentration of growth hormones are...and always take from the same average hight off the mother......if you were to take 2 clones...one from the inner bottom and the other from the top.....the top cutting would be extremely more vigorous in growth...root much faster and be much hardier.....think of it this way.....and this is a very rough comparison......say the plant is you...and you are 40 years old.....and each 4-6 node cutting is an exact replica of you....if you were to take a cutting from the top it would be 40 just like you....if you were to take a cutting from the bottom it is exactly like you except it is you at age 15......exactly you...just much younger...HORMONALLY.....where we start to see expression and vigor drift is when the plant is infected with a systemic virus... the mother may look normal but you take a piece of her and transition her into a differ light pattern and she will show what is wrong with her.....which a lot of times would be called dudding......you can grow your plant out of dudding by using the ingredients stated in previous posts above....once your cleaned clone starts to show it has grown out of the infection...you can then start to clone again and she become the new mom...."genetic drift" can only occur if you are actually genetically manipulating its DNA profile..which would take scientific labs with DNA stranding etc....vigor and growth have nothing to do with DNA/genetics per say when it comes to loosing vigor or the change in characteristics in growth pattern......it is simply showing you there is something wrong...with it...or the environment ......this is all simple science....laws of life....if you started to gain calcium deposit in your joints you wouldn't say your genes changed.....you would say you have developed arthritis ......the shitty expressions and loss of vigor are all built into the genes....it is simply an expression of what is happening to the plant...if there was a such thing as genetic drift...we would be able to manipulate it in a positive manner to create whole new strains without having to cross one with the other...simply because cannabis is so diluted with thousands of years of genetic pooling and cross breeding that we would be able to virtually recess one trait and bring out another just through growth manipulation... which is not the same as phenotypic expression....

 

[ziplock]

I would also add a soaking in some og biowar beneficials after the bleach and rinse, just to up your game. It's great on cuttings as a presoak to cloning. I add 1/2 tsp of the nute pack and root pack to 1 gallon of 6.0 pH ro water and soak the cuttings for 15 mins.

Once you get them rooted and transplanted you can use 1 crushed 325mg tablet of bayer aspirin per gallon of water , with nutrients and whatnot , to boost your plants natural immune system.

Best of luck.
Peace

SO much new info I had never known! I really like what I've got in this strain, and don't want to see it disappear. It was just bagseed, but what what a find! It attacks your head within 30 sec of your first puff, and runs away with you from there. Great for playing Stoner Cribbage. We end up arguing who dealt, what the count is, and trying to figure out if you posted your pegs in the wrong direction. :) Thanks to all who contributed. I appreciate it.

I think that's bro-science that you heard. Read my thread on three fingered leaves, especially if that cut is NOT an OG. Grow it on an 18/6 until it's straightened out before taking anymore cuts.

Will do. I have 3 that are about 7" right now. Thanks.

 

[ziplock]

I think that's bro-science that you heard. Read my thread on three fingered leaves, especially if that cut is NOT an OG. Grow it on an 18/6 until it's straightened out before taking anymore cuts.

Will do. I can't believe how much new info I'm getting here. It's like Christmas!

 

[ziplock]

yes Sea...I would like to add to that....when taking clones....once rooted.....let it veg for at least 2 weeks under 18/6....if it is still doing it then let it go another 2...if is still doing this then look to virus IMO

I always veg for 6-8 weeks at 18/6 before flipping. Any problem there?

 

[ziplock]

Ok to add a bit that wasn't said. There is some amount of truth to the genetic drift thing.

First off #1 genetics are genetics. Plants are either in vegetative, or flowering stage (or somewhere fucked up in between, hormonal imbalance)

Clones are pieces of plant material taken from one plant, rooted elsewhere.

Technically you can go years and years and years of cutting from the same plant making new clones. There is also no reason you cannot take a clone, wait for it to root, take another clone, ad infinitum.

BUT there is MORE risk of genetic drift occurring if you use the latter strategy.

WHY?!?! You said it is fine to do!!

Well...mutation happens. And if you take a cut that it's dna has been mutated, and now represents that trait, then the new rooted cut will also show the mutation.

Using 1 mother plant to take all cuts from, your whole plant is far far far less likely to mutate than just one branch. So you do not keep your mutation.

Edit: The mutation COULD be less vigor for any particular reason.

That approach makes sense. I have one problem at the moment. I have one space, 3' x 3' where I start my clones and the first couple weeks of veg, with only a 150w HPS for light. Then if I time it right, I can move them to my 3.5 x 6 Veg/bloom area which has a 600 w and a 150 w HPS grow lights, once the prev grow is dried. That doesn't leave me anywhere to keep my mother(s), does it? I think I need a warehouse.

 

[Wisher619]

@ziplock
no...no problem......just the basic bare minumum for vegging once the clone establishes itself.....
Def would love for you to bring back that girl to full vigor so you can have many more harvests with her....and maybe pass her along to others as well....good luck and happy growing

Wisher

 

[Wisher619]

@ziplock
shemshemets's logic is flawed....yes you are better off taking from one mother....but.....there is no such thing as genetic mutation....in this senerio.....genetic drift or mutation happens when parent passes alleles recessive know as hitch hiker alleles that can present themselves at any time for any reason....it is not a mutation or genetically veering from .....he is right it isnt good practice to keep cloning over and over from the next host only high radiation and a few other highly improbable things can mutate dna/genetics
I would start a new clone....and let her grow for a while....

 

[ziplock]

this topic has been studied extensively.....by many top notch growers in this industry .....all of them have come to one conclusion....there is NO SUCH THING AS GENETIC DRIFT.....PERIOD......
when taking cuttings you should always take from the top where the largest concentration of growth hormones are...and always take from the same average hight off the mother......if you were to take 2 clones...one from the inner bottom and the other from the top.....the top cutting would be extremely more vigorous in growth...root much faster and be much hardier.....think of it this way.....and this is a very rough comparison......say the plant is you...and you are 40 years old.....and each 4-6 node cutting is an exact replica of you....if you were to take a cutting from the top it would be 40 just like you....if you were to take a cutting from the bottom it is exactly like you except it is you at age 15......exactly you...just much younger...HORMONALLY.....where we start to see expression and vigor drift is when the plant is infected with a systemic virus... the mother may look normal but you take a piece of her and transition her into a differ light pattern and she will show what is wrong with her.....which a lot of times would be called dudding......you can grow your plant out of dudding by using the ingredients stated in previous posts above....once your cleaned clone starts to show it has grown out of the infection...you can then start to clone again and she become the new mom...."genetic drift" can only occur if you are actually genetically manipulating its DNA profile..which would take scientific labs with DNA stranding etc....vigor and growth have nothing to do with DNA/genetics per say when it comes to loosing vigor or the change in characteristics in growth pattern......it is simply showing you there is something wrong...with it...or the environment ......this is all simple science....laws of life....if you started to gain calcium deposit in your joints you wouldn't say your genes changed.....you would say you have developed arthritis ......the shitty expressions and loss of vigor are all built into the genes....it is simply an expression of what is happening to the plant...if there was a such thing as genetic drift...we would be able to manipulate it in a positive manner to create whole new strains without having to cross one with the other...simply because cannabis is so diluted with thousands of years of genetic pooling and cross breeding that we would be able to virtually recess one trait and bring out another just through growth manipulation... which is not the same as phenotypic expression....

So much I've been doing wrong. First, since I don't have a mother plant, I've been taking clones from my producing plants (still in veg). Since I avoided taking cuttings from the top cause I don't want to lose a cola, I've been pulling them off nearer the bottom or interior. Sounds like I've been making it harder than it needs to be. I have a feeling that my next clones are gonna look a Lot better than my last, thanks to everyone who posted here. If it were possible, I'd send a every one of you a bag for your helpful advice. Thanks!

 

[ziplock]

@ziplock
shemshemets's logic is flawed....yes you are better off taking from one mother....but.....there is no such thing as genetic mutation....in this senerio.....genetic drift or mutation happens when parent passes alleles recessive know as hitch hiker alleles that can present themselves at any time for any reason....it is not a mutation or genetically veering from .....he is right it isnt good practice to keep cloning over and over from the next host only high radiation and a few other highly improbable things can mutate dna/genetics
I would start a new clone....and let her grow for a while....

I'm still getting some really good practical advice.