Plant Weakening Using Clones Of Clones… Of Clones

[Seamaiden]

Fantastic, thank you. Although! I am still really curious about by what mechanisms, but they're still working on figuring that out.

That said, I'm going to revisit that citation link I provided to see if anyone else has expanded on the experimentation and experiment. :)

@Seamaiden

Maybe I didn't read that link well enough, but I don't think it's the cutting of the plant that induces mutation. What I purport is that the mutation exists before the cutting is made.

Indeed, that's my own understanding, and you're taking that mutation along when you take that cutting.

@Wisher619 @shemshemet
What about this paper?

 

[Dunge]

@Wisher619

I don't believe the mechanism of tissue culture and cloning is really much different.

Like you said before, you're taking the genetic info that is there, and giving it the correct conditions. True for both tissue culture AND cloning.

The main difference between tissue culture and cuttings is cell count.
A mutation in a cell culture with thousands of cells, which then grow into plants, will have a larger representation in the resultant plant.
A mutation in a few cells of a cutting will be masked by the billions of cells in the cutting.

Remember, ordinary evolution takes place on reproductive cells, which then pass that event to ALL their progeny.

Random mutations within vegetative cells may result in "cancerous" behavior, but would not be passed to neighbor cells.

 

[shemshemet]

@Dunge

Ok good logic. Except "would not be passed to neighbor cells" maybe "much less likely to be passed to neighbor cells"

 

[Wisher619]

@Seamaiden
yeah thats another article ....citing in vitro
propagation....tissue culture to be exact.....
from my understanding....tissue culture has always been unstable.....when you take a cutting say a 3-5 node cutting that clone is already a new plant.....the rooting process you can semi-compare to growing a nail back after one falls off......tissue culture is like cutting off your finger and trying to regenerate the rest of your body....although the dna in that finger is all you would technically need .....somewhere in the process somehow things go astray.....the experiment was conducted to see how stable it would be to clone other species which would have to be done in a similar process as tissue culture....I myself haven't studied to far into tissue culture just from lack of interest and from the fact that I have always taken "clones" fully grown cutting if you will....so I have never worried about this.....I also believe this may be why say the tomato or strawberry industry dosnt use tissue culture.....
but lets not mistake tissue culture for a sub sect of tissue culture known as shoot culture where by a shoot/clone is placed in solution and propagated which is what some do in cannabis and many do in the cut flower industry

 

[Seamaiden]

Thank you, we don't want to make those mistakes though they occur easily. :)

 

[Wisher619]

@Dunge
I do agree with the cell count but what they were seeing was spontaneous mutation during the regenerative process which would cancel out underlying mutation....

 

[ziplock]

oMG. When I asked whether my 3 leaved plants could have resulted from cloning, I never imagined the battle that was to result. I'm happy it happened, tho, because it's just this kind of exchange that makes us rethink our practices, and gives us a better perspective on how to better propagate our plants. Thanks to ALL of you for your contributions. I learned a lot. May we never agree on everything; what would we argue about? btw, I looked at photos of my previous grows, and noted that this strain has a tendency toward yellow leaves starting toward the bottom when the other strains in the same grow did not. Embarrassingly, it seems like this strain needs more N and P to do it's best. Pretty much MJ 101. Brings to mind the researcher's saying: When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

 

[shemshemet]

Brings to mind the researcher's saying: When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

dig it

 

[Seamaiden]

When I asked whether my 3 leaved plants could have resulted from cloning, I never imagined the battle that was to result.

That is a different thing from what's being discussed here. It's a hormonal response to lighting changes that signal to the plant whether it's to grow leaves or flowers. Make sense?

 

[Cannabinzai]

I've heard that taking clones from a plant in veg, then cloning the resulting plant will eventually weaken that phenotype. How does this happen? I have had a favorite strain (Ziplock) that came from bag seed about 7 generations ago. The newest clones are tending toward 3 fingered leaves, and plants are producing more 3-fingered leaves and getting less productive. Will breeding them with a stronger strain bring back it's vigor? Force a female Ziplock to hermie and pollinate another Ziplock female? I've heard pros & cons on this. Any suggestions out there?

A clone is a genetic replica of the source plant. That said, you are not messing with the genes. The "water down effect" is urban legen. Cloning is not inbreading or any sort of breading. The term as it applies to growing cannabis is missguided. Technically you are simply planting the same plant and you can do this indefinately and maintain purity of the original plants DNA constitution. Get high on that same plant over and over and you might build some sort of tolerence hence the feeling of "watersd down" strain

 

[Cannabinzai]

Ive come accross the term genetic drifting in this thread. This term does not apply to "clonning" cannabis becsuse there is no exchange, micing or even fiddling with the genetics of the original plant. Genetic drift refers to random changes in alleles in a genepool. Such random changes can only occur whenreproduction or hene combination ovcurs in a small population (inbreeding). Cutting a part of a plant un order to replicate it is not considered reproduction in any way shape or form and basically you are replanting the identical plant like splitting yourself in two, each piece of you is genetically identical to the other. Hence, impossible to lose potency. This myth has worked well in favor of seed banks

 

[Cannabinzai]

I forgot to add, if this myth were true, then shouldnt it be that because each clone is as old as the mother, then if the older the cannabis the more potent then the opposit of losing potency should be truesnd the clones should increase in potency over time? Potency is in the genes of the plant. I can see clnning reducing potency if you do not have all females, your plants reproduce and you use the offspring. This would not be "clonning" perse, but inbtreading. In fact clonning is the only way you know 100% of the times you will have a pure replica of a good plant indefinately. You cannot have 100% certainty by ordering seeds of the same strain from the same seedbank

 

[Judaz]

@Wisher619 Any updates on the subject matters described on this thread? Would like to see if you can give us some of your new insights on dudding as it has become a major problem for many of us today.
Would be nice and greatly appreciated if you can post on this sticky thread linked below and share some of your insights and experiences gained or learned from the bleach treatment described on this thread. It’s been a few years and we were wondering how well this technique has worked over time in keeping duds at bay. Thanks for your help.

Identifying dudded, stunted, and runted cannabis plants.

Identifying stunted growth in cannabis plants isn't actually all that hard. Hopefully this thread helps us figure out what, exactly, this runted syndrome is.

www.thcfarmer.com

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Bingo

@Seamaiden

Maybe I didn't read that link well enough, but I don't think it's the cutting of the plant that induces mutation. What I purport is that the mutation exists before the cutting is made.

 

[Observationist]

When you say soak in bleach you talking submerged or just stem

How does this shit not kill the plant? Same thing with micropropagation they soak the Curran’s in 70% alcohol

edit: CUTS lol.

 

[nicolajanjak]

Hi fellas
I'm here a bit late but some good informations in this thread
In your opinions, and after all these years, what cause the "dudding disease" ?
DHN says it comes from HPLVD, do you think its the real culprit ? ( i stay mistrustful about these big companies, always trying to capitalize, plus they participated to propagate the disease from what i heard, what a fortuity right? )

My old cheese caught this disease and it wasnt good anymore .. strange bushy pattern in veg, but still lushy green
some variegated leaves here n there (TMV??).
after the stretch the plants would start to get deficient, light sensitive, the top would yellow, all kinds of defs..
end product was total sh!t, with these strange "octopus" branching.
like it would never finish properly
really just good for the trash bin

From what i heard hplvd is a real nightmare, do you think it still possible to infect clean plants from seeds with they were grown in the same walls than the sick ones ? cleaned everything with bleach but its impossible to clean everything at 100%

it looked exactly like this plant (found on internet)

You can also note the missing 7+ blades leaves (or very rare)
Is there anyone who knows whats up ?? Viroid, virus, genetic drift after a revegg...?

sorry for my approximative english

ps: I must add i received some clones from g r o w island recently, and they all had this "disease". creeping lower branches that grow horizontally, needless to say everything went to the bin.

best regards