Purple Striped Stems...

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jlr42024

jlr42024

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fellow farmers have we decided that the purple stripes on the main stem are a good sign amongst seedlings? I've found that each keeper i currently have happens to have these purple stripes along with some of the better phenos I've seen pictured or in others gardens.
so what's the verdict friends, are you finding this in your gardens as well?
 
stickyfing3rs

stickyfing3rs

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My favorite mother always has dark red petioles. For the longest time I just thought she was finicky.
 
VERMONTSKUNKS

VERMONTSKUNKS

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Purple nurples 032
Purple nurples 031
ok I ll show ya some purple nurples...that stem is feeding this flower.....
 
jlr42024

jlr42024

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I call those my candy stripers!
interesting that's what I've always referred to them as well and nobody knows what I'm talking about until i explain. Once you've had the expression or trait in your garden you know exactly what"candy stripes" means because these phenos always seem the most flavorable, colorful, gooey resinous and of course potent when compared to non striped stems while pheno hunting.
 
VERMONTSKUNKS

VERMONTSKUNKS

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interesting that's what I've always referred to them as well and nobody knows what I'm talking about until i explain. Once you've had the expression or trait in your garden you know exactly what"candy stripes" means because these phenos always seem the most flavorable, colorful, gooey resinous and of course potent when compared to non striped stems while pheno hunting.
ive experience the same traits/similarities.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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With purple stripes on the stem; it's something I've put a little bit of investigation into. I cannot however say that I've found a definitive answer; but can say it seems to revolve around certain factors. I've only been exposed to a small variety of the total possible strains, so even my observations would not probably include a large enough variety to know for sure.

Now, purple leaf stems; I'm with @Seamaiden about that being a P- issue for sure.

As for the main stalk, I've only seen this characteristic show in a few situations.
--- A when a small plant (cutting or seedling) is placed into a larger medium and for a period there is reduced nutrient availability for the plant. Cuttings seem more common to show this; but once they root well; I've never seen that purple continue. (I.E. Availability issue is cause)
-- When a larger plant has been in a container / medium for an extended period of time, as well, purple can begin to show on main stems. Many sources will relate the purple stripe to N- or P- in the plant; however I've not had any responses that are successful to revert this in any "root bound" type situation. Of course, any of these plants potted into a larger medium will discontinue this as well. (I.E. Availability Issue is cause).
--- The third case that i've seen this show is in relation to "light spectrum". Believe it or not certain LED's will cause this purple coloration (10K LED for example), but that MH, HPS, FL, VHO or CFL does not do this. (I.E here possibly represents purple as a "pigmentation response".

I've not yet found a plant that this coloration cannot be removed at some point. The majority of what I've encountered is most definitely related to nutrient availability; with the exclusion of LED response. The LED results tend to suggest a pigmentation response that is unique there; in that no other light sources will do this (that I've found,....maybe halogen xD). However, a pigmentation response is definitely a possibility for certain lights and strains as this does occur in other types of organisms. Corals also can alter pigmentation as a direct response to light / spectrum; so there's at least precedence for this avenue.

This is something I still hope to further investigate and maybe someone someday will figure it out for sure. I'll be interested to see if I ever end up getting a plant that shows these properties throughout it's life; irrespective of nutrients or light spectrum.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Every time I've observed the mains being striped, it's a girl who purples up either with exposure to the sun, or cold, or simply purples up. This is very different from the P-/utilization issues that MGRox is discussing, that is limited to the petioles only and tends to be a redder color, IME. These striped ladies, in my experience, keep their striping throughout life.

I've never been able to play around with lights with such precise spectra as LEDs, so I can't speak to that.
 
VERMONTSKUNKS

VERMONTSKUNKS

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well we'll see then I throw some Indonesian bat guano on that pot and see if they need more p........id be shocked tho, same soil same strains only these two plants express these stems, and I might add that there flourishing! we'll see.
 
jlr42024

jlr42024

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Every time I've observed the mains being striped, it's a girl who purples up either with exposure to the sun, or cold, or simply purples up. This is very different from the P-/utilization issues that MGRox is discussing, that is limited to the petioles only and tends to be a redder color, IME. These striped ladies, in my experience, keep their striping throughout life.

I've never been able to play around with lights with such precise spectra as LEDs, so I can't speak to that.
Exactamundo lol this isn't a deficiency issue or anything like that its something expressed from seedling to harvest and tends to express itself on what i consider the better phenos and keepers.
 
jlr42024

jlr42024

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well we'll see then I throw some Indonesian bat guano on that pot and see if they need more p........id be shocked tho, same soil same strains only these two plants express these stems, and I might add that there flourishing! we'll see.
imo if your feeding reg is working don't mess with it, if you were p deficient your other girls would show signs. i would keep an eye on those purple stem phenos and possibly play with one to see if it changes anything. it's always possible that pheno is a bit more hungry for P then your others.
 
VERMONTSKUNKS

VERMONTSKUNKS

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to be honest I have a friend here whom I regard very highly for there knowledgebase in growing and he himself has said these types of phenos in his experience are exactly as you said, specific expressions from specific phenos.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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well I didn't mean to cause a disturbance or any confusion. I only referenced that purple "stalks" could be P- or N- as that's what you find in any documented literature with plants. I would not recommend attempting to make a nute switch "just to see". Again, I've tried several things when a plant has expressed this in the past and have not been able to nail down a response related to a specific chemical. The best way to have new growth not to show it (if it is from nutrients and not a pheno); is to up-pot it into a "base saturated medium" (e.g. bagged potting soil....there is no pre- saturated coir). I'm also testing a potting mix and coir side by side; I had much much more purple show on the coir when first rooting as compared to saturated medium I suppose.......none showed on the potting mix.

Again too I would be anxious to see a true pheno expression of this through out it's life; I know you guys have had access to much more than myself. I want to stress that I was in no way saying that a pheno expression was not possible; just that I'd not found anything like that myself. I mainly grow an afghan dom. atm and it, of course, expresses the purple leaf pheno; but I'm still not 100% that it is irreversible / avoidable.

@Seamaiden Ye I didn't think about cold weather as that could definitely relate to availability response. However I DID ask a "guy I know" whom for 20 years always grew outdoors here locally. All plants pulled here are After the first frost (below 32). In that time, he had 1 plant turn purple....the entire plant I guess; but he stated it was almost as if it was "hemp" as it was terrible. However, the other 399 never did (20 per year x 20 years); again here though he always used Filial stuff and didn't try many types.

if you want to try the LED response; just go to your local hardware store and buy LED standard replacement bulbs (9w or so). you can get those in 10K daylight. Now if you shine that light onto a branch (within a few inches from the bulb); the area that the light hits the branch will turn purple in a few days. Be sure to light a branch and not over the top and that the light is within a few inches. It's pretty wild to just see a purple patch in the middle of a branch xD.

I suppose I've been doing "unkowns" testing also this year and I have a few "negelected" specimens that probably won't be kept for any reason; I may be able to provide some pics of nutrient related purple expression. I wonder if it's possible to distinguish availability expression vs phenotypic.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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Ok I thought I'd start doing some digging on this subject. I've only just started so, I can't say I have any definitive answers; however I DO believe we can narrow / specify things a bit.

With plants there are only a few sets of pigments (biochromes) that are even possible. So, first; the coloration we see must be one of these pigments.
The pigments in plants are: Chlorophyll, Carotenoids, Anthocyanins and Betalains. You can find this info here: reference

We can look at these and further reduce this down. Chlorophyll is responsible for green and we are all aware of it. Carotenoids are responsible for red, orange or yellow colorations and would be most common in carrots. Anthocyanins cover the largest category of colors including red, blue, purple, yellow-green and even colorless. Betalains are red or yellow also but cannot occur in situations where Anthocyanins do. Now, Anthyocyanins are somewhat unique in that they do occur in virually all live parts; including roots, stems, leaves, flowers; etc.

From this; we can easily presume that the pigment responsible for colors in cannabis (this would be inclusive of reds, purples or blacks in stems, leaves and flowers) is Anthocyanins. You can find some basic info on this pigment here; reference.

Some things of particular note here are that "Anthocyanins can be used as pH indicators because their color changes with pH; they are pink in acidic solutions (pH < 7), purple in neutral solutions (pH ~ 7), greenish-yellow in alkaline solutions (pH > 7), and colourless in very alkaline solutions, where the pigment is completely reduced".. Also, that "Anthocyanins are found in the cell vacuole, mostly in flowers and fruits but also in leaves, stems, and roots. In these parts, they are found predominantly in outer cell layers such as the epidermis and peripheral mesophyll cells"

Also, I suppose the explanation for autumn leaves and strains that tend to "naturally" turn purple towards harvest; may also be of similar origin or nature.
"The reds, the purples, and their blended combinations that decorate autumn foliage come from anthocyanins. Unlike the carotenoids, these pigments are not present in the leaf throughout the growing season, but are actively produced towards the end of summer.[27] They develop in late summer in the sap of the cells of the leaf, and this development is the result of complex interactions of many influences, both inside and outside the plant. Their formation depends on the breakdown of sugars in the presence of bright light as the level of phosphate in the leaf is reduced."

There are a few other resources that I'm currently looking through; but it seems we can explain many of these color expressions.

reference
"Plants also show tremendous diversity in anthocyanin expression. In leaves, for example, anthocyanins may colour the entire blade, or else be restriced to the margins, stripes, patches, or seemingly random spots on the upper, lower or both lamina surfaces. In some leaves, only the petiole and major veins are pigmented red, in others it is the interveinal lamina tissue, or the stipules, or domatia that are anthocyanic. .........."In many species, anthocyanins are produced only when the plant is unhealthy or has been exposed to environmental stress, but there are some that develop the red pigments even under optimal growth environments."

"Irrespective of their cellular location, however, anthocyanin biosynthesis in many leaves is generally upregulated in response to one or more environmental stressors. These include: strong light, UV-B radiation, temperature extremes, drought, ozone, nitrogen and phosphorus deficiencies, bacterial and fungal infections, wounding, herbivory, herbicides and various pollutants. Because of their association with such biotic and abiotic stressors, anthocyanins are usually considered to be a stress symptom and / or part of a mechanism to mitigate the effects of stress."


If we look at merely this section here; it would cover all the possible aspects about purple striped stems that have been proposed (xD), even though fairly open and no reasoning. Though, it is possible to have a anthocyanic response from temp, season, N-, P-, Light, etc etc; including that it can be a normal expression. In fact, since many ornamental flowers do this "normally" there has been much investigation into this; so that's good from a certain perspective.

My intent now, I suppose, is to try and see if there's much research as to what is going on inside the plant to cause these changes. Possibly we can get to some evidence and maybe even tests with "candy stripes" specifically. My first thoughts are (since the color of pigment is altered by pH) that something is causing an internal change to the pH where these pigments are located that is leading to the stripes we see. I'm guessing that there's some by-product created from moving various organic / inorganic compounds internally that possibly get deposited or accumulated which causes the pH change. I'm not sure if I'll easily find the answer as I cannot think of another type of plant species that does show this particular characteristic.

This book: resource From what I was able to read; covered the various ways that coloration of anthocyanins can occur. A couple notes of interest from this;
"Anthocyanins are stored in an organized aqueous medium in the cell vacuoles. A slightly acidic environment (pH 3-5) rich in inorganic ions and other polyphenols is essential for the transformations in these pigments that enable the formation of molecular complexes and subsequent color changes and stabilization."

another quote I will shorten to make it a tiny bit more digestable;
"The structure depicted in Fig. 1.2 depicts the positively charged flavylium cation, which is the dominant equilibrium form in strongly acidic solutions. The positive charge is delocalized throughout....although carbons 2 and 4 are the more positively charged atoms. The relative ease of deprotonation of the two OH at positions 4 and 7 contributes to the color changes of anthocyanin. One of these OH loses a proton at pH~4 producing bases that exhibit a chromatic deviation toward longer wavelengths. At pH close to neutrality, a second deprotonation occurs leading to the formation of the anionic bases, with another blue shift in the absorption spectrum."


Possibly has one avenue of interest for our situation here; Metalloanthocyanins.
"All anthocyanins possesing a catechol structure in their B-ring, that is, all derivatives of cyanidin, delphinidin, and petunidin, are known to have the capacity of complex formation with several small divalent and trivalent metal cations. This type of association has been demonstrated to be at the origin of the blue color in some flowers. Metals most commonly found in the formation of such metalloanthocyanins are Iron (III), Magnesium (II) and Aluminum (III)."

anyway. At least so far we can say what it is that's being expressed. I'm not sure if there will be a way to nail things down further, but I'll keep digging some. If I find any more goodies; I can post them if anyone wants.

hope this helps
 
jlr42024

jlr42024

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wow no disrespect but to be honest i didn't bother to read threw all that mostly because I'm way too stoned to put forth the effort and also because this pic is from this summer so no cold weather or etc. to influence just genetics imo at least.
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that's a piece of the main stalk towards the top of the plant and a side branch both expressing purple stripes. i just grabbed a branch I'm sure i could find one even more pronounced but it's plain to see.
 
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Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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@MGRox -- I find it fascinating that your friend has only ever experienced one plant purpling due to cold, I see it every year. And again, the color changes (not just purpling, but also features like pink pistils) that only appear where the plant is being hit directly by sunlight.

:)
 
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