Robz - O2 Generator – Do Sat Test Results

[ken dog]

And that is why I was thinking dual purpose! Very nice way to kill two birds with one stone if it can be managed.

I think it can, as long as there is a reaction chamber before the highly ozonated water reaches the plants.

I think that my epicenter which acts as a ozone reactor, will fit the bill... Although it may be necessary for me to filter the water exiting the epicenter / ozone reaction chamber, with activated carbon as well as the activated carbon for the air filter.
I personally have some filter bags and activated charcoal coming in the mail... One type for wet ozone filtration, and another type for dry ozone filtration... I will post them up in the "Sterilizing My Grow With Ozone" thread when they arrive.

 

[ken dog]

If it works, it will be serendipitous... as it is not what I was going after, but yet, it seems like an added benefit.
Kudos for bringing it up Timmur.:)

 

[timmur]

You're welcome! I was just trying to get someone to figure it out! I have several irons in the fire and I was worried about tackling it. Thanks for all of contributions! :D

 

[J Henry]

http://www.ballpublishing.com/GrowerTalks/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=22058

This pretty well sums it up. " By measuring these two simple factors, most nutritional problems can be avoided. The measurement of Dissolved Oxygen (DO) is also proving to be just as critical to plant growth. As with the other two measurements, there are minimum levels required for a healthy plant. Also, by optimizing DO, as with pH and EC, we can see great improvements in plant growth and quality. However, far fewer growers are utilizing, or are even aware, of this measurement.

300% DO Supersaturation... wonder what kind of device they used to test the DO sat with? And, the hyperbaric pressure that was maintained, how much continuous pressure on plant, the roots and nutrient solution to achieve this ? Maybe 2-3 ATM, 29.4 psi -44.1 psi?

These researchers have no doubts about the vital importance of oxygenation and technically and how to achieve their oxygenation goal. Thanks for bring this piece to the forums attention.

 

[timmur]

The feedback I've gotten is that it is difficult to maintain much over 10 ppm of DO in the UC. I hope that isn't the case, but I plan to figure it out as soon as my DO probe arrives. I'm going to do some testing with any empty system and see if this is the case and if so, how to fix it.

Thanks for posting that J Henry!

 

[ken dog]

This pretty well sums it up. " By measuring these two simple factors, most nutritional problems can be avoided. The measurement of Dissolved Oxygen (DO) is also proving to be just as critical to plant growth. As with the other two measurements, there are minimum levels required for a healthy plant. Also, by optimizing DO, as with pH and EC, we can see great improvements in plant growth and quality. However, far fewer growers are utilizing, or are even aware, of this measurement.

300% DO Supersaturation... wonder what kind of device they used to test the DO sat with? And, the hyperbaric pressure that was maintained, how much continuous pressure on plant, the roots and nutrient solution to achieve this ? Maybe 2-3 ATM, 29.4 psi -44.1 psi?

These researchers have no doubts about the vital importance of oxygenation and technically and how to achieve their oxygenation goal. Thanks for bring this piece to the forums attention.

This is all very interesting stuff... Thank you also, for helping bring this topic to the front.

Regarding 300% saturation, I imagine you could use Henry's law to figure out the pressure needed to attain those levels... I'm guessing that's how you derived your estimates.
Fun topic.

 

[str8smokn]

Great read guys! I'm not in hydro ,but always up for learning new stuff.
STR8

 

[J Henry]

This is all very interesting stuff... Thank you also, for helping bring this topic to the front.

Regarding 300% saturation, I imagine you could use Henry's law to figure out the pressure needed to attain those levels... I'm guessing that's how you derived your estimates.
Fun topic.

You brought this info to the forum Ken, I read the piece:

Understanding Dissolved Oxygen by Kurt Becker
GrowerTalks Magazine Monday April 11, 2016 Published 1/29/2016 http://www.ballpublishing.com/GrowerTalks/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=22058
Simply by manipulating the DO saturation all kinds of thing can change. Go back and look at the article again. Might even call and talk to the author, he will have a treasure trove on information about DO supersaturation because he has used these high DO supersaturations with very positive results.

Kurt Becker is the Executive Vice President—Sales & Marketing at the Dramm Corporation in Manitowoc, Wisconsin.

Dramm Corporation
2000 North 18th Street
Manitowoc, WI 54221
USA
800.258.0848 order toll free

Contact Commercial Equipment
[email protected]

They will provide contact info for Kurt Baker
Pull a thread and see what you discover.

 

[ken dog]

Thanks, I appreciate it... he sounds like a good authority.

 

[palm eezy]

Thanks for all the info guys. My notes files are getting stuffed. Real excited to see how the ozone injection stuff works out. I'd already be running this sort of setup except that I had read about someone (company/researchers) who tried it, and found that ozone at a useful concentration would destroy the chelates.

 

[ken dog]

Thanks for all the info guys. My notes files are getting stuffed. Real excited to see how the ozone injection stuff works out. I'd already be running this sort of setup except that I had read about someone (company/researchers) who tried it, and found that ozone at a useful concentration would destroy the chelates.

Pinning down the correct ORP value is going to be tricky... simply put, there is no information out there regarding proper ORP values for growing crops, and very few people are doing it... And whoever is doing it, they are keeping their ORP values a secret.
I'm trying to keep mine at least 260mV and right around 300 mV.
I've gone as high as 340mV.

And keeping in mind, that ORP meters are not an exact measurement... It is constantly changing, and 15mV plus or minus is a good reading.

ORP values below 260mV, and you may as well not use any sort of disinfectant... Is my understanding.

 

[J Henry]

Thanks, I appreciate it... he sounds like a good authority.

You might be surprised at what he says when you talk to him. He's the Executive VP of Sales and Marketing, test him, see if he can sell you on the concept of DO Supersaturation. I bet his presentation about preventing "low oxygen" will be very, very different than a water chiller salesman or an aerator salesman.

 

[ken dog]

You might be surprised at what he says when you talk to him. He's the Executive VP of Sales and Marketing, test him, see if he can sell you on the concept of DO Supersaturation. I bet his presentation about preventing "low oxygen" will be very, very different than a water chiller salesman or an aerator salesman.

It's not that I have a great issue with dissolved oxygen concentrations, it's just that I am always quick to point out that nutrient levels need to be dropped when increased levels of dissolved oxygen are used.

Really, that's the only issue I have with higher levels of dissolved oxygen.

 

[MGRox]

Pinning down the correct ORP value is going to be tricky... simply put, there is no information out there regarding proper ORP values for growing crops, and very few people are doing it... And whoever is doing it, they are keeping their ORP values a secret.
I'm trying to keep mine at least 260mV and right around 300 mV.
I've gone as high as 340mV.

And keeping in mind, that ORP meters are not an exact measurement... It is constantly changing, and 15mV plus or minus is a good reading.

ORP values below 260mV, and you may as well not use any sort of disinfectant... Is my understanding.

Heya Ken, I did a bit of snooping here. I'll go ahead and reply about it in your Ozone thread, rather than to derail......whatever this is.

As the system remains under pressure, the DO levels can be maintained at more than 300% of the saturation level of DO.

Nope. Not in the slightest.
Okay. So the "best" way to inject ozone is with the gaseous feed also being "oxygen" vs "air". Because ozonizers will output more ozone with higher input oxygen levels. Now, when this oxygen assisted ozone is ran through a reactor chamber (allowing dissolution).................

http://www.delozone.com/files/O3-vs-air-051811.pdf
"In a maximum efficiency configuration, an ozone system using 93% oxygen feed gas would be injecting ozone enriched gas into a sidestream of 20% (or less) of the circulation water. At 95% mass transfer efficiency at 15 psi contact / degas tank pressure, the maximum additional dissolved oxygen is 3.2 mg/l in 20C water, assuming no oxygen demand."


On a separate note from that same paper. 12 ppm of DO will cause milky water (closed system) and 20 ppm will cause fish death.

**I typically do not ever use or take (or value) any information from a Mfg, magazine, forum or other "non-scientific" source (without references). However, with the link above, since they are selling ozonizers. They may well be using higher values to promote their product. Nonetheless, 3.2 mg/l of increase in DO with ozone at 15 psi does sound fairly reasonable and they do note that this level is "unrealistic", so that adds a bit of credibility at least.


This whole area of concern around DO is getting pretty nuts. You can easily find out all the info from published documents. Guess I've been wanting to leave this alone; but maybe it all needs straightened out.

 

[J Henry]

This whole area of concern around DO is getting pretty nuts. You can easily find out all the info from published documents. Guess I've been wanting to leave this alone; but maybe it all needs straightened out.

Oxygenation is no doubt a very slippery slope in the world of RDWC and DWC pot growing. A world pocked with assumption, conjecture and he says Joey said. Many growers and others claim that “low oxygen” in root zones and nutrient water presents opportunity for Pythium and other fungal organisms to thrive and listening to all the growers fighting this disease, there appears many preventive measures often fail.

I would love see your opinion or better yet, please cite the scientific literature that identifies precisely what this term “low oxygen” means (what % DO saturation or DO concentration is considered “low oxygen”) in DWC RDWC root zones and nutrient water?

Then what %DO saturation or DO concentration is considered “good oxygenation or optimal oxygenation?” In tour opinion and please cite research.

Please participate and share your opinion and cite scientific white paper on this subject.

 

[MGRox]

yep, replying to some basics in one of the other many threads you made about this. Can get a whole lot more in depth if we need to I suppose.
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/dwc-and-rdwc-oxygenation-–-the-art-of-salesmanship-and-making-money.80753/page-5#post-1680081

To tl;dr that post. Science says 68-71F is optimal temp and that greater than 4mg/l of Oxygen has no effect on pythium. Optimal "high oxygen" is considered to be 5-7 mg/l.

 

[chillywilly]

Umm, I thought that oxygenation at some point 'burns' nutrients and that at certain intervals would benefit depending upon stage of growth... not scientific on it but experience... O3 would help in oxygenation, but used as a means of controlling pathogens, one atom falls off and O2 is final result clarifying... I've used food grade liquid 02 as supplement when figured to use... O3= O2 X UV...my 2 penny...
peace...
cw

 

[J Henry]

To tl;dr that post. Science says 68-71F is optimal temp and that greater than 4mg/l of Oxygen has no effect on pythium. Optimal "high oxygen" is considered to be 5-7 mg/l.

In 68F water 5 ppm DO concentration = 54% DO saturation is optimal
*In 68F water 4 ppm DO concentration = 43% DO saturation has no effect on Pythium
In 71F water 7 ppm DO concentration = 78% DO saturation is optimal
*In 71F water 4 ppm DO concentration = 44% DO saturation has no effect on Pythium

Anything greater than 43% - 44% DO saturation has no effect on Pythium in 68F - 71F water. Does this science also apply to Pythium residing in cannabis root zone and root oxygenation in RDWC DWC?

Yes, thank you for offering more of your time and expertise. I would love for you to get into a whole lot more depth regarding including supporting research published at least within the last 4 years (2012 – 2016). The research targeting RDWC DWC cannabis oxygenation, resistance to hypoxia and the hypoxic stress response of the plant.

I really appreciate you mini-graduate school class. I chuckle respectively when I read this, “At what point does low Oxygen cause problems with roots? Well that takes a bit more explanation than I will inclued here. A key note is that when a plant responds to low oxygen, it alters exudates in order to begin breaking down the (now extra) rooting area. This is what becomes a causal factor for pythium related specifically to DO. E.G. Pythium increase is related to the plant response of low DO, not in anyway that actual DO alters pythium occurrence itself.” You posted 4/12/2016 @ 1:54 https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/dwc-and-rdwc-oxygenation-%E2%80%93-the-art-of-salesmanship-and-making-money.80753/page-5#post-1680081

The plants auto response to powerful stressors, especially hypoxic stress, often results in cell damage and tissue death sending out altered exudate really sounds the dinner bell that all fungi wait for. The ubiquitous fungi wait so patiently for that right signal.

So in order for hydroponic grown cannabis plant to be stressed enough to begin the cellular dying process that alters the exudates that invites the Pythium outbreak, the root zone and nutrient solution would need to be hypoxic ( common stressor) or some other serious life threatening stressor?

I do so enjoy reading and researching your responses and citations and I shall respond to your post. Thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise.