Roots Organics - PH Too Low?

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Green Mtn

Green Mtn

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I've been using Roots Organics nutrients since last winter. I began by using some of them eventually, I have the whole line up. I'm starting to second guess my decision.
1. Last season indoors I PH adjusted even though the company said not to use PH + or - becasue it will kill microbes, etc. I manged to get a decent harvest. (I'm a newbie, that was like my 2nd or 3rd crop)
2. Switched to Outdoor in 25gal smart pots this summer with my own 'mix' potting soil, compost, topsoil..... had a nice summer but not super robust as in year's past. I kinda assumed it was the lack of daylight I get. I started not adjusting the PH because I wanted to learn about going all organic. The PH of the nutrients when mixed according to their schedule came out to be like 4.5-5 at best :/ I would bubble for 2-3 days and could get it up over 6pm. Everything seemed ok, had to harvest early because the cold damp VT fall came and had to harvest early because of bud rot.
3. This fall moved back indoor and was super excited to see this line work magic. took my clones from end of summer in 4" pots and veg. inside for like 3-4weeks. All good, barely fed them. (Using 100% FFOF - I know I'm a newb) Moved them into 1/2 gal pots and veg for another 2-3weeks. Started feeding according to Roots schedule and bubbling the mix to get the ph above 6. Sometimes you struggle when the schedule starts adding more nutes to get the PH out of the 5's with aeration alone.
4. After 4 weeks saw yellowing on new growth and thought either a deficiency or getting pot bound. I wanted to get ready to flower anyway so I moved to 5gal pots (Final home) I watered only and added microbes. for like 1 week or so. The plants rebounded awesome. and looked ready to flower.
5. 2.5 weeks after transplant into 5 gal. I switched the light. started noticing the yellowing again. Just like the 1/2 gal. pots. This time I knew it shouldnt be pot bound and pretty damn certain their wasn't def because i'd been feeding regular. So I checked PH.
6. The runoff was coming out at like 5! The last feeding went in at almost 7 and came out at 5. This is where the problem lies I suspect?
7. Even though I bubble the Roots Organics for days it must be sitting in the soil and going acidic again. The soils out of the bag is just over 6 alone. My tap water is like 6.3 and 40-60ppm.
8. I top dressed with espoma lime (2T per 5gal pot and watered in)... 2 days later I top dressed with 2T and flushed each plant with 2-3gals of water. After flushing each I hit each pot with a 1/2 gal of 'recharge' microbe and some 'fish shit' to restore the soil life.
9. Things seem to be greening up again? My only conclusion is that Root Organics makes your solution acidic as hell (I've read this in multiple places), Maybe its just organic fertilizers in general? (Again, I'm new).
10. Instead of spending that extra money for "Roots" I probaly will switch to Neptunes or other like organic fertilizer made from similar ingredients?


Somebody tell me I'm doing something silly and it's and easy fix? Well I guess maybe adding a scoop or so of dolomite to my buckets beforehand will help buffer out the acidic nutrients. Why does the company not give you any guidance on this at all? I'm sure there are plenty of people like me out there burning the shit out of their plants and swearing off their brand for good. Thing that sucks is I already have a few hundred tied up in there nutrient line.

Any people with similar issues?
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

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The first 3 are before flush and the second 3 are post flush. Similar thing happened when I up potted from 1/2 gal to 5 g. The yellowed too can back with patches of green quickly. The ‘recharge’ says your plants will look better in 48hours guaranteed lol
 
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447E4C85 EA34 46F5 9C09 22FDC670835E
E90F29B1 301D 4532 AAC5 E6D059DA30E8
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9ACED224 E437 4C12 8B9E B95BB594A168
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Ffof is already fertilized. What ph adjustment where you using? I'm not an organic grower but I think you were over doing it crashed the ph and killed your microbes now they are recovering.

@justiceman probably could help ya out.
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

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Ffof is already fertilized. What ph adjustment where you using? I'm not an organic grower but I think you were over doing it crashed the ph and killed your microbes now they are recovering.

@justiceman probably could help ya out.
I was only using aeration for about 72 hours to bring ph I guess. I bet the water after it sits in root ball for a day or 2 loses that oxygenation and tanks the PH again :/ Hoping the lime helps too but definitely looking better than yesterday.
 
JWM2

JWM2

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Recharge is mostly humic and fulvic acid. It helps but it won’t reverse the effects of acidic soil. The issue here is imo too many nutrients and not enough runoff. If you don’t water to runoff the nutrients buildup and lower the ph thus creating the lockout you are seeing here. You have a couple choices. Flush with water to remove the excess nutrients or add liquid lime (Herculean Harvest) to adjust the ph of your feed to compensate. Or do a combo of both and from that point on try to get more runoff when watering them. It’ll save you the hassle and flush out buildup to prevent this from happening again.
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

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this one has me confused as hell so i will set back ,i am interested in the bubble to get your ph right thing,new one on me,this i will say ,your biggest problem is you have no clue,what your working with,you say fox and roots,what is each doing? so fox soil what was ph before you put the soil in a pot,roots feeds,what do each do in cupsa of water all the same ph and ppm from begining,does this one riase the ph and drop ppm and so on threw the line if you get what im saying,,from that point you know exact what is what,you cant depend on fox or roots,they both just sale stuff if you dig,i grow from seed in ocean forest always have,everone says it to hot,im thinking there coming up with that from the temp outside,ive never once had issues of seeds or clones in the soil,but to each there own,ive never run roots line,but as with every line there wanting to sell products,and damn near every one of them sell the same thang and call it gold,isolate each see what it does,i look at it like a hydro grow,you have a big barrel of water and the plant look like shit,what does it need or what do you read and think it needs,you feel me,so if roots has a 5 bottle line,take 5 glasses,all same amount of water,same ph and ppm from get go,use 1ml of each product and see what happens in each glass,so document all this.
once you have done all this go back and document each bottle npk values,so if mama with the great hips starts to look like she trying to yellow up and say your in veg,my first thought would be a little more N right ,were 3 weeks in flower i would think more of a k value,reguardless of a bad call or not then you know were to get help from if you dig what im saying
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

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OK. I have a hard time believing it's build up as I only fed 2x in those pots. I've rotated between water, water+recharge, & just fed. The PPM has was 800ppm one feeding and 1200 just this last. They've only been in the 5g pots for 3 weeks in 100% FFOF. It's possible with the nutrients in the soil already that the added nutrients caused some build up? I think it's more likely that the nutrient mix that was 4.5 before aeration is more likely to blame for such low runoff PH? The FFOF soil seemed like it was just 6+PH when I measured straight out of bag.
 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

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OK. I have a hard time believing it's build up as I only fed 2x in those pots. I've rotated between water, water+recharge, & just fed. The PPM has was 800ppm one feeding and 1200 just this last. They've only been in the 5g pots for 3 weeks in 100% FFOF. It's possible with the nutrients in the soil already that the added nutrients caused some build up? I think it's more likely that the nutrient mix that was 4.5 before aeration is more likely to blame for such low runoff PH? The FFOF soil seemed like it was just 6+PH when I measured straight out of bag.


That is way to strong to transition the plants from soil nutes to fertilizer. I use ocean forest and an initial feed like that wil lock the plants up every time. I never even feed that much at peak flowering.

Gotta start low and work up slowly.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Kinda what i was thinking... also soil microbes don't fair well at all in low PH so after flush you will likely see deficiencies if using organic nutrients as it takes time for them to repopulate and if you start feeding heavy again your gonna have the same problem over and over.
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
OK. I have a hard time believing it's build up as I only fed 2x in those pots. I've rotated between water, water+recharge, & just fed. The PPM has was 800ppm one feeding and 1200 just this last. They've only been in the 5g pots for 3 weeks in 100% FFOF. It's possible with the nutrients in the soil already that the added nutrients caused some build up? I think it's more likely that the nutrient mix that was 4.5 before aeration is more likely to blame for such low runoff PH? The FFOF soil seemed like it was just 6+PH when I measured straight out of bag.
now your talking,so ocean is 6.5 from fresh bag,ive check every bag,that we agree on,here is another tip you havent considered and do your own testing to prove to yourself,i have found in hydro,htdro gaurd which is live drops my ph,in soil em1 drops my ph,your using thrive i have never used so cant say and dont even know what it is and just asume it is also live,MAYBE TO MANY LIVE THINGS going in is your ph issue,
some thing to consider right,if your not using product to kill your fungi and bacteria balance why even add it?.
next thing every one seems to think lime is the ultimate savior,at time it might be and if your pots are balanced and feed to to water exchange is nuetral and you grow fine product at 7 it is a savior,but if you grow at 6.5 straight up the middle it is not,lime neutrallize to 7., now lime is great for calcium but many things are all are best put in from the start and cooked into the soil just saying,so if you choice to use lime it has to be done in small increments over weeks to adjust to the 6.5 versus just dumping in a spoon or 2,were as what caused a bag of 6.5 soil you tested all sudden went to 4.5 or some crazy number over a few weeks,instead of chasing ghost what did you do that caused the issue.
what im getting at from your last post is you think im ragging at you,im not im trying to help by opening your mind to difrent way of thought buy fixing what you already did,adding lime adding myco adding npk all that just puts a final end to the plant over time,think back what you did,honestly i dont get the adding mycos all the time,i inoculate my seed with it and that it rest of grow,i add live threw teas in such natural stuff if you dig,anyway tried to help ,want it take if not scroll past it,good luck
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

26,480
638
now your talking,so ocean is 6.5 from fresh bag,ive check every bag,that we agree on,here is another tip you havent considered and do your own testing to prove to yourself,i have found in hydro,htdro gaurd which is live drops my ph,in soil em1 drops my ph,your using thrive i have never used so cant say and dont even know what it is and just asume it is also live,MAYBE TO MANY LIVE THINGS going in is your ph issue,
some thing to consider right,if your not using product to kill your fungi and bacteria balance why even add it?.
next thing every one seems to think lime is the ultimate savior,at time it might be and if your pots are balanced and feed to to water exchange is nuetral and you grow fine product at 7 it is a savior,but if you grow at 6.5 straight up the middle it is not,lime neutrallize to 7., now lime is great for calcium but many things are all are best put in from the start and cooked into the soil just saying,so if you choice to use lime it has to be done in small increments over weeks to adjust to the 6.5 versus just dumping in a spoon or 2,were as what caused a bag of 6.5 soil you tested all sudden went to 4.5 or some crazy number over a few weeks,instead of chasing ghost what did you do that caused the issue.
what im getting at from your last post is you think im ragging at you,im not im trying to help by opening your mind to difrent way of thought buy fixing what you already did,adding lime adding myco adding npk all that just puts a final end to the plant over time,think back what you did,honestly i dont get the adding mycos all the time,i inoculate my seed with it and that it rest of grow,i add live threw teas in such natural stuff if you dig,anyway tried to help ,want it take if not scroll past it,good luck
Yes bacteria in the root zone are all aerobic (meaning the consume oxygen) and give off co2. This can/will lower soil PH
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

37
18
Kinda what i was thinking... also soil microbes don't fair well at all in low PH so after flush you will likely see deficiencies if using organic nutrients as it takes time for them to repopulate and if you start feeding heavy again your gonna have the same problem over and over.
Many of you seem to be in agreement that they were overfed. So if it was too many nutes and a lock out. It seems like the flush and lime have helped and I'll just water for now...But how do I feed again as you say if I do notice deficiencies? What PPM would you suggest? And I should ignore "Roots Organics" advise and PH adjust to 6.5 if I do feed again. For now I think I might go check some of my spring water PH and PPM and just give them that plain for now. I just always heard you need to feed heavy heading into flower so I thought that was a good thing. Again, I've only fed every 3 waters (9-10days) in between it's only been water and water+recharge. I also suspect that reading the rainbow is not helping me here, I need a good PH pen.
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

37
18
now your talking,so ocean is 6.5 from fresh bag,ive check every bag,that we agree on,here is another tip you havent considered and do your own testing to prove to yourself,i have found in hydro,htdro gaurd which is live drops my ph,in soil em1 drops my ph,your using thrive i have never used so cant say and dont even know what it is and just asume it is also live,MAYBE TO MANY LIVE THINGS going in is your ph issue,
some thing to consider right,if your not using product to kill your fungi and bacteria balance why even add it?.
next thing every one seems to think lime is the ultimate savior,at time it might be and if your pots are balanced and feed to to water exchange is nuetral and you grow fine product at 7 it is a savior,but if you grow at 6.5 straight up the middle it is not,lime neutrallize to 7., now lime is great for calcium but many things are all are best put in from the start and cooked into the soil just saying,so if you choice to use lime it has to be done in small increments over weeks to adjust to the 6.5 versus just dumping in a spoon or 2,were as what caused a bag of 6.5 soil you tested all sudden went to 4.5 or some crazy number over a few weeks,instead of chasing ghost what did you do that caused the issue.
what im getting at from your last post is you think im ragging at you,im not im trying to help by opening your mind to difrent way of thought buy fixing what you already did,adding lime adding myco adding npk all that just puts a final end to the plant over time,think back what you did,honestly i dont get the adding mycos all the time,i inoculate my seed with it and that it rest of grow,i add live threw teas in such natural stuff if you dig,anyway tried to help ,want it take if not scroll past it,good luck
I hear you. That's what I was trying to do "bubble" some organic nutrient teas... I guess I over did it. I didn't notice this trouble in outdoors but the pots were also 25 g with a ton of amendments. The plentiful soil must have been able to buffer these in the 25 gal pots and then again maybe my yield would have been much better if my PH wan't off so much outdooor too?
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

26,480
638
Many of you seem to be in agreement that they were overfed. So if it was too many nutes and a lock out. It seems like the flush and lime have helped and I'll just water for now...But how do I feed again as you say if I do notice deficiencies? What PPM would you suggest? And I should ignore "Roots Organics" advise and PH adjust to 6.5 if I do feed again. For now I think I might go check some of my spring water PH and PPM and just give them that plain for now. I just always heard you need to feed heavy heading into flower so I thought that was a good thing. Again, I've only fed every 3 waters (9-10days) in between it's only been water and water+recharge. I also suspect that reading the rainbow is not helping me here, I need a good PH pen.
Personally I say don't bother phing water. Don't bother using spring water. And feed will depend on plants but I would start low like 300ppm when you feel you need it

Of course you need to feed heavy going into flower and all the time for that matter how else are the nutrient manufacturers going to get rich? Always and I mean always better to under feed than over feed. More nutes does not mean more growth and if you look around this forum you will see it usually means more problems. And almost every single newer grower is way over feeding and having issues in large part due to it.
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

37
18
Personally I say don't bother phing water. Don't bother using spring water. And feed will depend on plants but I would start low like 300ppm when you feel you need it

Of course you need to feed heavy going into flower and all the time for that matter how else are the nutrient manufacturers going to get rich? Always and I mean always better to under feed than over feed. More nutes does not mean more growth and if you look around this forum you will see it usually means more problems. And almost every single newer grower is way over feeding and having issues in large part due to it.
By Spring water I menat the overflow outside. My whole house is fed by the spring water. I just was curious if there was any difference out of the ground vs out of my old copper pipes? But in any case it's nice water, 40-60ppm and 6.2-6.5ppm
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

37
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Hey you know I quit drinking 15 years ago because I like to push everything to the limit!! JK But yeah that makes sense. Just measured the spring water again it’s around 6.2-6.4 and the PPM 12. So I’m going to let them dry up a bit and then give them a heavy rerunning water like last time cpl days ago. They look a little better but still pale in spots the Blueberry seems especially hard hit.
 
Green Mtn

Green Mtn

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So besides not adding any more nutrients. Should I be doing anything more? Add liquid lime (suggested above- by a hydro store maybe?) just keep running water through until I see a deficiency? Foliage feed ?
 
greenscholar

greenscholar

128
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First I would Get distilled water and do a slurry test out of the top of the pot. 1 to 1 water to soil a couple of ounces and actually see where thats at instead of run off. I would mix nutes and ph up with Nectar Olympus up, If your worried about synthetic adjust accordingly. Also I would not bubble for more than 24 hours if your going that route. The bottles don't push it to the limit genetics and vpd do.
 
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