Science on loss of vigor over generations of clones?

[TPTB73]

Hey guys, been on lurker for a while, not sure if I've ever posted before, but reading this I figured I had to. I'm not saying there's no loss of vigor over time, but I've never experienced it. If someone experiences a loss of vigor over time, it's definitely NOT genetic.

I like to keep mothers because I grow straight from clone to 12/12, with all of the plants packed in tight together. Therefore, I need the plans to grow as one straight stock with a single cola, and no side branching. So, if I was to take clones off my clones, I'd either have to wait for side branches or take a clone off the top which would cause it to split making more tops. Plus, I would have to take clones off the plants while they were in flower. Not good for my style of growing. In the past, when I was growing larger plants, I took clones of clones for 2 and 1/2 years, and never noticed any loss of vigor.

There is definitely no change in the genetic makeup of the plant via cloning. The DNA will not change at all, that is impossible. There is no such thing as "genetic drift" unless females are being pollinated, and seeds are being grown. You cannot change the DNA of a plant by taking clones of it, not even for a thousand years.

 

[Judaz]

Clones don't lose vigor, Growers do...

Really folks, 99% of the growers on these forums don't have any growing skills whatsoever - stop blaming genetics, bugs, virus's, whatever - it's Grower Error.

I think this statement sums up this whole thread. I’ve had my og kush cut since the 90’s and still banging quality and producing weight. But I have made one key observation over the years and that the health and vigor of a clone depends on the Health and vigor of the branch taken to make the clone. I don’t keep mother plants. I always clone the tops of my plants that are vegging to go to the next cycle because that always gives me the best results for weight and quality.

Years ago when I used to keep mother plants I notice that my weight would go down over time after setting up a new grow room. I would blame it on the equipment getting old, bulbs and ballast degrading over time, reflectors losing reflection from sulfur burning in the rooms etc. I would replace equipment and see an increase in weight per light but never reaching the yields that I first had when starting a new room. Scratching my head for many years it finally hit me. I got that Eureka moment when I asked myself what I was doing when starting a new project other than buying new equipment? And the answer was starting new healthy mother plants from disease free strong clones. Over time the mother plants would degrade from stress and from taking hundreds of cuts which creates more and more branches that become more spindly over time thus making weak clones. I realized that the best clones come from pruning the top shoots of my healthy vigorous vegetative plants.

I don’t believe that cloning from clones over time degrades your strain I fact I can say that I’ve been cloning my og cut for over 20 years and still breaking records in quality and yields that no one believed to be possible. I’ve hit 31 pounds of some of the most dank and frosty looking buds on 9 lights with the original og kush cut that everyone claimed to be a poor yielder back in the day. By having the right environment, room setup but most importantly by having healthy and vigor clones that were not taken from old stressed out mother plants but by cloning the tops of my healthy veg.

 

[PharmHand]

I think this statement sums up this whole thread. I’ve had my og kush cut since the 90’s and still banging quality and producing weight. But I have made one key observation over the years and that the health and vigor of a clone depends on the Health and vigor of the branch taken to make the clone. I don’t keep mother plants. I always clone the tops of my plants that are vegging to go to the next cycle because that always gives me the best results for weight and quality.

Years ago when I used to keep mother plants I notice that my weight would go down over time after setting up a new grow room. I would blame it on the equipment getting old, bulbs and ballast degrading over time, reflectors losing reflection from sulfur burning in the rooms etc. I would replace equipment and see an increase in weight per light but never reaching the yields that I first had when starting a new room. Scratching my head for many years it finally hit me. I got that Eureka moment when I asked myself what I was doing when starting a new project other than buying new equipment? And the answer was starting new healthy mother plants from disease free strong clones. Over time the mother plants would degrade from stress and from taking hundreds of cuts which creates more and more branches that become more spindly over time thus making weak clones. I realized that the best clones come from pruning the top shoots of my healthy vigorous vegetative plants.

I don’t believe that cloning from clones over time degrades your strain I fact I can say that I’ve been cloning my og cut for over 20 years and still breaking records in quality and yields that no one believed to be possible. I’ve hit 31 pounds of some of the most dank and frosty looking buds on 9 lights with the original og kush cut that everyone claimed to be a poor yielder back in the day. By having the right environment, room setup but most importantly by having healthy and vigor clones that were not taken from old stressed out mother plants but by cloning the tops of my healthy veg.

Do plant viruses exist ? And do they slow plant growth and vigor? Is what the thread should be called. But I guess that would make the thread pointless

 

[Trustfall]

I think this statement sums up this whole thread. I’ve had my og kush cut since the 90’s and still banging quality and producing weight. But I have made one key observation over the years and that the health and vigor of a clone depends on the Health and vigor of the branch taken to make the clone. I don’t keep mother plants. I always clone the tops of my plants that are vegging to go to the next cycle because that always gives me the best results for weight and quality.

Years ago when I used to keep mother plants I notice that my weight would go down over time after setting up a new grow room. I would blame it on the equipment getting old, bulbs and ballast degrading over time, reflectors losing reflection from sulfur burning in the rooms etc. I would replace equipment and see an increase in weight per light but never reaching the yields that I first had when starting a new room. Scratching my head for many years it finally hit me. I got that Eureka moment when I asked myself what I was doing when starting a new project other than buying new equipment? And the answer was starting new healthy mother plants from disease free strong clones. Over time the mother plants would degrade from stress and from taking hundreds of cuts which creates more and more branches that become more spindly over time thus making weak clones. I realized that the best clones come from pruning the top shoots of my healthy vigorous vegetative plants.

I don’t believe that cloning from clones over time degrades your strain I fact I can say that I’ve been cloning my og cut for over 20 years and still breaking records in quality and yields that no one believed to be possible. I’ve hit 31 pounds of some of the most dank and frosty looking buds on 9 lights with the original og kush cut that everyone claimed to be a poor yielder back in the day. By having the right environment, room setup but most importantly by having healthy and vigor clones that were not taken from old stressed out mother plants but by cloning the tops of my healthy veg.

You can keep a mother plant healthy but you get 31 lb.s off 9 lights with og kush?
Keeping mothers is fine you just have to know how to keep them healthy.
Clones off clones is fine too if you don’t run into rooting problems.
Treat your moms with physan20 once a month and they will rebound with fresh clones that are healthy.

 

[Dirtbag]

There is no degradation so long as your plant doesnt contract a serious virus. And even then you could always do a tissue culture to try and eliminate the virus.

My pre-98 Bubba has been grown clone off of clone locally by people I know for, well, over 20 years.

Given the right environment it produces the nicest smelling and tasting smoke of any plant that graces my garden imho.

 

[Judaz]

You can keep a mother plant healthy but you get 31 lb.s off 9 lights with og kush?
Keeping mothers is fine you just have to know how to keep them healthy.
Clones off clones is fine too if you don’t run into rooting problems.
Treat your moms with physan20 once a month and they will rebound with fresh clones that are healthy.

I totally agree. Keep the mother plants healthy but for me having multiple locations I don’t use mothers. They take up space and time maintaining. So the cloning from veg works for me. Because I have multiple locations that can feed each other Incase an accident happens and I los me a tray. Plus Innerd to top the tops on my veg anyways so that’s why it works for me. But yea for sure keep the mother healthy and you should be fine

 

[Judaz]

There is no degradation so long as your plant doesnt contract a serious virus. And even then you could always do a tissue culture to try and eliminate the virus.

My pre-98 Bubba has been grown clone off of clone locally by people I know for, well, over 20 years.

Given the right environment it produces the nicest smelling and tasting smoke of any plant that graces my garden imho.View attachment 857963 View attachment 857965 View attachment 857966

Nice bro. I lost that
Clone a long time ago and been wanting to get it back. Let me know if you interested in crossing it with my Og cut which is the legendary og kush cut coming from Florida the 96 Og from LA. I have the female clone and I have Bx 13 seeds of it as well that we can use a male as well to create exotic hybrids. I recognize it right away. You got the real
Deal there. That’s exactly how I remember it

 

[Dirtbag]

Nice bro. I lost that
Clone a long time ago and been wanting to get it back. Let me know if you interested in crossing it with my Og cut which is the legendary og kush cut coming from Florida the 96 Og from LA. I have the female clone and I have Bx 13 seeds of it as well that we can use a male as well to create exotic hybrids. I recognize it right away. You got the real
Deal there. That’s exactly how I remember it

Where abouts are you? I'm planning on crossing it this summer with a bunch of stuff. I plan to do a branch each of bubba crossed with male pollen from Blueberry, GOD, Shiva skunk, and true purple kush. Also want to make a Blue GOD and a GOD Kush cross, as well as Platinum Kushies and GODs cookies lol. Also might self pollinate one for some female seeds and see what I get.

And that's cool that you recognize it. I have seen so much pot called bubba Kush that is not actually BK.. It's silly. The commune of growers I know have passed this cut around since about 2000 or so. Everything they have is legit for sure, and that's about a dozen strains. It's why I get so frustrated when you see this or that at a dispensary and it's not even close. I know damn well what it should smell taste and look like.

 

[Judaz]

Where abouts are you? I'm planning on crossing it this summer with a bunch of stuff. I plan to do a branch each of bubba crossed with male pollen from Blueberry, GOD, Shiva skunk, and true purple kush. Also want to make a Blue GOD and a GOD Kush cross, as well as Platinum Kushies and GODs cookies lol. Also might self pollinate one for some female seeds and see what I get.

And that's cool that you recognize it. I have seen so much pot called bubba Kush that is not actually BK.. It's silly. The commune of growers I know have passed this cut around since about 2000 or so. Everything they have is legit for sure, and that's about a dozen strains. It's why I get so frustrated when you see this or that at a dispensary and it's not even close. I know damn well what it should smell taste and look like.

San Fernando Valley Ca how about you? Where are you at?

 

[Dirtbag]

San Fernando Valley Ca how about you? Where are you at?

Sorry man, I'm gonna avoid cross border relations on this one. I'm in BC Canada.

 

[Dirtbag]

How about if I send you some of the og bx13 seeds. Would you be willing to give me some seeds of the cross?

Honestly, I dont want to do anything cross borders man, sorry. It just wiggs me out.
But knowing how good this plant is I totally understand where you're coming from.

 

[Dirtbag]

But, Jordan of the islands is a breeder on Vancouver island who used this cut to do some breeding. He offers a GODs BUBBA that is very nice.

 

[jumpincactus]

lose of hybrid vigor relates to seed stock and subsequent generations. Clones/cloning from a healthy mother will never lose their vigor as long as the mom is healthy. Because clones are from the same generation.

I know no one asked just giving it up for free. :D

 

[jumpincactus]

https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/w...inition-examples-and-a-brief-explanation.html

 

[Dirtbag]

lose of hybrid vigor relates to seed stock and subsequent generations. Clones/cloning from a healthy mother will never lose their vigor as long as the mom is healthy. Because clones are from the same generation.

I know no one asked just giving it up for free. :D

You're right. But they are talking about loss of general vigour from cloning off clones off clones though, not loss of hybrid vigour or heterosis.

 

[jumpincactus]

You're right. But they are talking about loss of general vigour from cloning off clones off clones though, not loss of hybrid vigour or heterosis.

thx for pointing that out. :D So then truly the ????? s does cloning a clone repeatedly fall under the same dynamics as heterosis.?? Interesting, thats above my knowledge/pay grade level.

 

[RippedTorn]

You cannot change the DNA of a plant by taking clones of it, not even for a thousand years.

Then how do you explain evolution? Do you believe Paki and Thai were both independently created by the weed gods as they are today? Perhaps marijuana changed due to environmental change, changes in the soil, etc? That would make sense, on all counts..

When I was in Az I heard people blaming "cloning too much" on the abhorrent quality of the state's medical bud. People were literally asking for seed crops en masse. I think every dumb myth in Cannabis originated in that state. I about lost it when "over cloning" became az mmj canon, not a theory but literally accept fact. Total Bullshit.

 

[Dirtbag]

Then how do you explain evolution? Do you believe Paki and Thai were both independently created by the weed gods as they are today? Perhaps marijuana changed due to environmental change, changes in the soil, etc? That would make sense, on all counts..

When I was in Az I heard people blaming "cloning too much" on the abhorrent quality of the state's medical bud. People were literally asking for seed crops en masse. I think every dumb myth in Cannabis originated in that state. I about lost it when "over cloning" became az mmj canon, not a theory but literally accept fact. Total Bullshit.

There is a big difference between genetic breeding and cloning. Taking cuttings passes on the genetics of the mother plant. Breeding creates new combinations of genetics.

 

[New school]

I do clones of clones of clones. I'll start from seed then go till I want something new. But I'll only crack one or two max and start again. Been at it for years. I'll take more clones than I need and pick the best. Never seen any loss of vigour. Just my two cents..

 

[hyzerflip]

When I was in Az I heard people blaming "cloning too much" on the abhorrent quality of the state's medical bud. People were literally asking for seed crops en masse. I think every dumb myth in Cannabis originated in that state. I about lost it when "over cloning" became az mmj canon, not a theory but literally accept fact. Total Bullshit.

Sounds to me more like AZ has a fuckin' grip of pests and pathogens. They pop seeds and get one good-ish crop off before the new plants get too infected to produce well anymore.