Should I Defoliate?

[BobaJob]

I personally like to remove the enormous fan leaves blocking light reaching lower buds, and I take everything off from the lower 20% of the plant. Those bud sites down there aren't going to receive much light and will just grow tiny buds taking growth from the bigger ones above.

that is exactly what I would like to do but I am nervous about doing it - I would feel like somehow I am abusing them lol

 

[BobaJob]

HPS ?
Into a net ?
You are golden.

I like your style bobjob. I enjoy reading your posts .
We can start with a theory, followed by two facts
Here is my idea -the biggest fan Leaf you're looking at there ---it is the boss
it is the champion
it is winning.
Light drives photosynthesis. It is superior at what every other leaf is trying to do .
You asked it to veg- it's winning, don't cut it off.

Facts - Phototropism
Leaves will maneuver themselves to where they want to be. Happens really fast .
View attachment 862360
Fact phototropism
Bud will maneuver themselves to where they want to be. It happens really fast .
View attachment 862363
The executive completely defoliated every single fan leaf, on one of these plants. Defoliated at three and a half weeks of veg , they flipped to 12/12 four days later . It appears on the front right hand side of this photo.

It is still flowering at this time. The only observation I can make is the defoliated plant produced the most uneven canopy

Yes, 600w HPS 4x4 tent 4 x Critical + 2.0 5gallon root pouches all grown with cannabio and I will add the net in a week - I plan to start manipulating/spreading/scrogging in to the net at stretch as somebody advised. As for cutting off leaves, it doesn't sit well with me because I have been doing a lot of reading and to cut off something that the plant primarily uses for photosynthesis seen extreamly counter productive and quite barbaric, however, people do this on a regular basis to great effect and seeing as the lower regions of the plant will not be getting sufficient light it seems logical. I'm torn lol

 

[hawkman]

at present growing Dark Star and ghost train haze #1 0 When it comes to defoliation I,m doing a method called "Schwazzing" subpost to give massive yields did a complete schwazzing on Dark Star ? I don't know never removed all fan leaves at 21 days in flower; plant really looks bear

 

[BobaJob]

at present growing Dark Star and ghost train haze #1 0 When it comes to defoliation I,m doing a method called "Schwazzing" subpost to give massive yields did a complete schwazzing on Dark Star ? I don't know never removed all fan leaves at 21 days in flower; plant really looks bear

I just looked in to that and my good lord it looks brutal. saying that though, from what I can tell it looks like buds actually use the light to photosynthesise light and not just the leaves like I thought. Looks good but I also ready that topping and sgrogging is a better way. So far, I am leaning towards just taking the biggest ones and lower bud off just before I flower etc. But that does look very tempting having looked at some pictures. It just seems so brutal lol

 

[BobaJob]

 

[Jimster]

The big fan leaves are what provides the energy for the plant to grow. They are vital when the plant is growing, with some of the largest being the lowest, and first leaves produced. They are large because the plant needs as much energy as possible when starting out. Removing these while the plant is young will slow down it's growth. When the plant is mature and has tons of leaves, the fan leaves aren't as necessary, but they also hold stored energy and nutrients. They eventually pull the nutes out of the leaves, which then turn brown and fall off. As long as there is enough leaf overall, losing a couple leaves is not a big deal. Buds need light to get big. Without light, you get very wispy buds. The idea is to remove as much larger leaves as possible without stressing or harming the plant. This allows the light to reach more growth points/areas, which translates into bigger buds.
You need light and you need leaves. In my opinion, there is a balance between too little and too much defoliating, which is what I strive for to give me the largest/solid buds while providing a large yield. There are just so many variables, its almost impossible to give a blanket recommendation. FWIW, Indica and it's hybrids don't tend to stretch as much as Sativa's, and newer strains always seem shorter and more compact to me. I'd give it another few weeks, concentrating on bending and training plants as much as possible to keep them from getting too tall. I don't use a tent so I don't worry as much about height...so keep that in mind if using my advice

 

[BobaJob]

The big fan leaves are what provides the energy for the plant to grow. They are vital when the plant is growing, with some of the largest being the lowest, and first leaves produced. They are large because the plant needs as much energy as possible when starting out. Removing these while the plant is young will slow down it's growth. When the plant is mature and has tons of leaves, the fan leaves aren't as necessary, but they also hold stored energy and nutrients. They eventually pull the nutes out of the leaves, which then turn brown and fall off. As long as there is enough leaf overall, losing a couple leaves is not a big deal. Buds need light to get big. Without light, you get very wispy buds. The idea is to remove as much larger leaves as possible without stressing or harming the plant. This allows the light to reach more growth points/areas, which translates into bigger buds.
You need light and you need leaves. In my opinion, there is a balance between too little and too much defoliating, which is what I strive for to give me the largest/solid buds while providing a large yield. There are just so many variables, its almost impossible to give a blanket recommendation. FWIW, Indica and it's hybrids don't tend to stretch as much as Sativa's, and newer strains always seem shorter and more compact to me. I'd give it another few weeks, concentrating on bending and training plants as much as possible to keep them from getting too tall. I don't use a tent so I don't worry as much about height...so keep that in mind if using my advice

That is exactly the conclusion I have come to! After reading quite a bit about how plants work, seeing that they create and store energy in leaves (and roots) cutting them off would be a bad idea, but then, having so many in a tent which doesn't get the same light as outdoor plants and it seems from all angles as the sun passes through the sky, too many would hinder the lower growth. So I got to thinking that taking 'just enough' to allow light to get through but not so many that it slows down photosynthesis (maybe by healing and trying to grow new leaves to replace the old?) and stress the plants would be a nice medium. I'm no where near being experienced to be doing that so I think, for me as a noob , just pulling the lower leaves off before i flower and maybe the lower bud while i sgrog during the stretch so to make way for the light for the areas just below the main canopy, would be the safest bet for me???

 

[hawkman]

I just looked in to that and my good lord it looks brutal. saying that though, from what I can tell it looks like buds actually use the light to photosynthesise light and not just the leaves like I thought. Looks good but I also ready that topping and sgrogging is a better way. So far, I am leaning towards just taking the biggest ones and lower bud off just before I flower etc. But that does look very tempting having looked at some pictures. It just seems so brutal lol

Yea I know ! the plant has (drakstar) a 9-10 week flower did it on day 21 and a week after not much new growth but this strain is a slow grower it was is still growing in week 4 of glower - guess time will tell ??? it is a bit "radical"

 

[Jimster]

That is exactly the conclusion I have come to! After reading quite a bit about how plants work, seeing that they create and store energy in leaves (and roots) cutting them off would be a bad idea, but then, having so many in a tent which doesn't get the same light as outdoor plants and it seems from all angles as the sun passes through the sky, too many would hinder the lower growth. So I got to thinking that taking 'just enough' to allow light to get through but not so many that it slows down photosynthesis (maybe by healing and trying to grow new leaves to replace the old?) and stress the plants would be a nice medium. I'm no where near being experienced to be doing that so I think, for me as a noob , just pulling the lower leaves off before i flower and maybe the lower bud while i sgrog during the stretch so to make way for the light for the areas just below the main canopy, would be the safest bet for me???

You are doing great and it's good that you have researched this stuff. My setup is a 10 X 8 room with a 7 ft top. I grow an old strain of Sativa as well as another hybrid or two. The Sativa gets very tall and is lanky, which makes it difficult to control and not suited for shorter spaces. My solution was to surround the light source, a 1000w MH with a vertical orientation, allowing for a ton of light coming out the sides of the light, not straight downward as most setups are. There is a round reflector on top, so the light is concentrated both down and sideways. I move the tall plants along the perimeter and the side lighting from the MH's gives great growth. Shorter plants can be kept more towards the center, where they get most of their light from above. The bright white walls reflect a sizable amount of light, so I get good results. The key is the side lighting. I don't know how easily this would translate into a tent operation though.
Back to plucking. I stand in front of the plant and look down. There is the top canopy, but right under it you will see a lot of growing and developing bud sites. Look to see if there is a larger leaf blocking direct light from reaching this site...if so, just remove the 1 leaf that is blocking the light. Just repeat this process and you will both allow the light to reach further in (although this is best to do from the start of flowering) and not take enough leaves to stress the plant. This changes daily from the plant growing, being turned or moved, etc. It only takes a couple of leaves and over time, it will benefit your yield. The large, lower leaves aren't hurting anything as long as they don't block much light from reaching bud sites. Leave them on unless they block light or start to yellow. Of course, this is my opinion and everyone has their own way of doing things that they prefer. Don't overthink things.

 

[hawkman]

You are doing great and it's good that you have researched this stuff. My setup is a 10 X 8 room with a 7 ft top. I grow an old strain of Sativa as well as another hybrid or two. The Sativa gets very tall and is lanky, which makes it difficult to control and not suited for shorter spaces. My solution was to surround the light source, a 1000w MH with a vertical orientation, allowing for a ton of light coming out the sides of the light, not straight downward as most setups are. There is a round reflector on top, so the light is concentrated both down and sideways. I move the tall plants along the perimeter and the side lighting from the MH's gives great growth. Shorter plants can be kept more towards the center, where they get most of their light from above. The bright white walls reflect a sizable amount of light, so I get good results. The key is the side lighting. I don't know how easily this would translate into a tent operation though.
Back to plucking. I stand in front of the plant and look down. There is the top canopy, but right under it you will see a lot of growing and developing bud sites. Look to see if there is a larger leaf blocking direct light from reaching this site...if so, just remove the 1 leaf that is blocking the light. Just repeat this process and you will both allow the light to reach further in (although this is best to do from the start of flowering) and not take enough leaves to stress the plant. This changes daily from the plant growing, being turned or moved, etc. It only takes a couple of leaves and over time, it will benefit your yield. The large, lower leaves aren't hurting anything as long as they don't block much light from reaching bud sites. Leave them on unless they block light or start to yellow. Of course, this is my opinion and everyone has their own way of doing things that they prefer. Don't overthink things.

find it's best to grow 100% sativa's from seed and flower them after 2-3 weeks of veg - to control height

 

[hawkman]

I agree - with out door grows it's un-necessary but some in door grows it's some times necessary due to space and light foot print

 

[London bud]

Instead of defoliating you could try tying certain branches down to let more light through or use stakes, like bamboo sticks to spread out the plant

 

[Jimster]

Sativa's are notorious for being difficult to grow indoors, especially in a tent. I manage by having 7 ft ceilings and bending/shaping/training the main branches to keep them as low as possible. Side lighting is VERY important in taller plants, so I use a vertical 1000w mh/hps to provide both top and side lighting. They are like ADAH children...unruly regardless of how much you train them!

 

[hawkman]

Instead of defoliating you could try tying certain branches down to let more light through or use stakes, like bamboo sticks to spread out the plant

some times a do a lot of "bending" and some stalking

 

[hawkman]

Sativa's are notorious for being difficult to grow indoors, especially in a tent. I manage by having 7 ft ceilings and bending/shaping/training the main branches to keep them as low as possible. Side lighting is VERY important in taller plants, so I use a vertical 1000w mh/hps to provide both top and side lighting. They are like ADAH children...unruly regardless of how much you train them!

do you find that there is a lot of vertical growth and if let grow will out shine the plant

 

[Jimster]

do you find that there is a lot of vertical growth and if let grow will out shine the plant

If you are referring to Sativa's, YES, there is usually a LOT of vertical growth. They are more spindly with more room between nodes and branches. Their buds are different too, not like the hard nuggets that is the rage. Sativa's will easily grow above the light level unless you have very high ceilings, which is why it is important to keep them spread out horizontally as much as possible. An advantage to this is that the buds on the horizontal branches will begin to grow vertically, giving you a bunch of "Buds in a row" when flowered.
If I missed your question, please let me know!

 

[hawkman]

If you are referring to Sativa's, YES, there is usually a LOT of vertical growth. They are more spindly with more room between nodes and branches. Their buds are different too, not like the hard nuggets that is the rage. Sativa's will easily grow above the light level unless you have very high ceilings, which is why it is important to keep them spread out horizontally as much as possible. An advantage to this is that the buds on the horizontal branches will begin to grow vertically, giving you a bunch of "Buds in a row" when flowered.
If I missed your question, please let me know!
I agree - yea the sativa buds can be really airy and do dry faster

 

[hawkman]

"Light" defoliation works great and perfer to do you like you

Remember - no more that10% leaf removal at a time to determine wheather one should defoliate figure the most surface area of leaves exposed to direct sunlight for better photosymishes