The myth of vitamin b-1

[Capulator]

I have been doing some reading this morning on vitamin b-1... and I don't think I will be buying it anymore.

thoughts?

 

[Blaze]

I've been telling people this for a long time but most don't listen. I stopped using b-1 years ago and never looked back, it really does not do anything for the plant, total waste of resources and money IMO. All the claims about stimulating root growth from b-1 manufacturers are based on improperly conducted research form the late 1930's and early 1940's.

http://ag.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/vitaminb1androotstimulators.html

 

[HG23]

Thanks for that link Cap, that webpage has lots in interesting info, I like the article about foliar feeding. I've felt for a long time there are many myths in the gardening world, especially in the cannabis part of that world. IBA is pretty much what roots excel consists of, right? I know DS has a thread about it somewhere..

 

[outwest]

Good info. Danks.

outwest

 

[Smoking Gun]

I have been off the B-vitamin band wagon a while ago. I never saw a difference with or without it. Thanks for sharing the pdf with all of us. I had read a very similar article a while back. In some ways I am surprised at how many people are still buying into the B-vitamin myth. The nutrient companies for the most part never did, look how few of them put out B-vitamin supplements, so why would us growers buy into it? Well hopefully the myth will soon be totally dispelled and people stop wasting money on bottles of additives that do nothing.

 

[Capulator]

I have been off the B-vitamin band wagon a while ago. I never saw a difference with or without it. Thanks for sharing the pdf with all of us. I had read a very similar article a while back. In some ways I am surprised at how many people are still buying into the B-vitamin myth. The nutrient companies for the most part never did, look how few of them put out B-vitamin supplements, so why would us growers buy into it? Well hopefully the myth will soon be totally dispelled and people stop wasting money on bottles of additives that do nothing.

I bought some 2 weeks ago!!!

 

[Blaze]

This myth has been going strong for 70 years, somehow I doubt it's going to go away. I think most of us have bought into it at one point or another. I know I was told to use it (and did use it) by a LOT of growers when I first started to learn....

 

[Smoking Gun]

Cap, I am sorry you spent that money. Well I guess lessons learned, right?

Blaze, maybe we can start the trend of not using B-vitamin, and start by calling it a myth. Maybe its time to use some reverse psychology; it always seems when someone calls something a myth some intelligent people actually go looking for the facts. Since it seems to be accepted as common knowledge that B-vitamins will improve crops and plant health, the myth would surely have to be that B-vitamins are not useful for plants. Then maybe we will have people go check the internet and come across all the material that states that B-vitamin products are useless in growing, then they will all post it all over the boards like they found some Earth shattering news and the use of B-vitamin products will be discontinued.

 

[squiggly]

B-1 has always been a pretty bad supplement for anyone/thing without a genetic disorder.

The body/plant/bacteria has a highly specialized synthesis pathway for thiamine--it is very good at making it when all of the necessary conditions are met. If the target is increased b-1 availability the best way to achieve this would likely be to boost levels of other compounds in the pathway.

To my mind you need 2 things primarily for this:

1. Healthy level of sulfur (enzymatic active sites, cystein).

2. Complex sugars and/or ample free amino acids for breakdown and usage in the thiamine or TPP (thiamine pyrophosphate) backbone.

As I've said before and will say again here--sulfur is by far the most important thing to dial in to keep biosynthesis chugging along as it should (ceteris paribus)--of course there are other stumbling blocks out there but for someone who routinely "dialed-in" strains, I'd say that probably 90% of the time the final bottleneck for those people is from sulfur and enzymatic health.

This is a "deficiency" that is nearly impossible to spot or even quantify. If a true deficiency then it is easy--but if sulfur is at healthy but less-than-optimal levels there is no simple way to find out. Organisms are very good at keeping only as many enzymes active as they can support. That is to say that if sulfur is slightly deficient, an organism will likely start to disassemble and re-purpose enzymatic sulfur.

The difference in this case would scarcely be noticeable, because again most organisms are very good at keeping the local enzymatic concentrations at healthy levels.

More enzymes = faster reactions = higher production capability.

For anyone who has a strain completely dialed, give it a shot. Play around with sulfur in that strain and I bet you find some surprises.

The reason that B-1 is a bad supplement, is that if the plant can't and isn't making it on its own--there are far worse problems that the plant has, which B-1 won't help with at all.

Beyond that it is a HUGE molecule, do the plants even absorb it thru the roots? Are there any known active transport proteins in roots which take this stuff up. I have a hard time believing it's crossing a plasma membrane.

 

[squiggly]

For anyone interested:

(This is in E. Coli--very likely to be a relatively conserved pathway, though, for most organisms. Tiny changes if any.)

 

[OGONLY]

Very interesting. I use B-52 week 3-6. The stuff smells so strong it makes you feel like its gotta do something good since it obviously doesn't do any harm. It sure does add to the PPM total though. Expencive stuff too.

Guess I'm going to have to give it a go without next run and see. I phased out Fulpower a recently when I noticed no difference without it.

 

[squiggly]

B-52 has humics and kelp as well and is still a good product SFAIK, the b vitamins may be helpful to one or another members of your microherd, as you say it will do no harm I'd say at least finish the bottle you have.

Even if B vit helps fungi and bacteria marginally (which I believe would be best case scenario, very marginal)--it really isn't going to make a ginormous impact. With the numbers you have of those species (hopefully) diminishing returns have already been met long previous in terms of what marginal productivity increases will give you. That is to say, if you haven't killed your herd--it's pretty much doing all that it can do by the time it reaches critical mass.

Either way humics and kelp are helpful enough (and who knows what "other ingredients" are in there that might be beneficial).

 

[leadsled]

imho, chitin can get the job done for less $$ than thiamine. crab meal ftw.

Here is one study
Vitamin B1 Functions as an Activator of Plant Disease Resistance1

1. Thiamine
   • Thiamine or vitamin B-1, is believed to induce systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in plants, according to researchers at the Seoul National University. Korean researchers found that thiamine-treated rice and other vegetable crop plants showed increased resistance to fungal, bacterial and viral infections. Thiamine also activates the SAR-related gene in tomato, tobacco and cucumber plants, according to the study. The benefits of increased pathogen resistance helps growing plants fight off disease and yield healthier crops. Vitamin B-1 is commonly found in rooting hormone formulas and fertilizers.

 

[Capulator]

imho, chitin can get the job done for less $$ than thiamine. crab meal ftw.

Here is one study
Vitamin B1 Functions as an Activator of Plant Disease Resistance1

1. Thiamine
   • Thiamine or vitamin B-1, is believed to induce systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in plants, according to researchers at the Seoul National University. Korean researchers found that thiamine-treated rice and other vegetable crop plants showed increased resistance to fungal, bacterial and viral infections. Thiamine also activates the SAR-related gene in tomato, tobacco and cucumber plants, according to the study. The benefits of increased pathogen resistance helps growing plants fight off disease and yield healthier crops. Vitamin B-1 is commonly found in rooting hormone formulas and fertilizers.

I read this too. However, I use trichoderma for that.

I also read that plants will produce their own thiamine, and certain microbes will also produce thiamin.

 

[squiggly]

Skinny on thiamine:

Everything needs it, all organisms--no exceptions known. It is only produced by plants, microbes, and fungi. Animals must obtain it from their diet. Potentially if the roots saw a lot of thiamine they might assume there's bacteria lurking and thus they turn up the juice on their defense. Best evolutionary reason I can think up for that mechanism.

B vitamins are generally very good for animals, and not so much for plants/microbes in terms of cost effectiveness. The benefit has also never been quantified in cannabis at all.

 

[NaturalTherapy]

Thanks for the lesson gentlemen...interesting reading

 

[Mississip Hip]

Yeah....but the plants will DO everything they naturally would, ok. BUT...aren't we trying to boost up and gigantisize ecerything? I think it strengthens the plants "natural" defense systems. Supercharging them, if you will.

Here is a link and the abstract to the study:

Abstract

Vitamin B1 (thiamine) is an essential nutrient for humans. Vitamin B1 deficiency causes beriberi, which disturbs the central nervous and circulatory systems. In countries in which rice (Oryza sativa) is a major food, thiamine deficiency is prevalent because polishing of rice removes most of the thiamine in the grain. We demonstrate here that thiamine, in addition to its nutritional value, induces systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in plants. Thiamine-treated rice, Arabidopsis (Arabidopsis thaliana), and vegetable crop plants showed resistance to fungal, bacterial, and viral infections. Thiamine treatment induces the transient expression of pathogenesis-related (PR) genes in rice and other plants. In addition, thiamine treatment potentiates stronger and more rapid PR gene expression and the up-regulation of protein kinase C activity. The effects of thiamine on disease resistance and defense-related gene expression mobilize systemically throughout the plant and last for more than 15 d after treatment. Treatment of Arabidopsis ecotype Columbia-0 plants with thiamine resulted in the activation of PR-1 but not PDF1.2. Furthermore, thiamine prevented bacterial infection in Arabidopsis mutants insensitive to jasmonic acid or ethylene but not in mutants impaired in the SAR transduction pathway. These results clearly demonstrate that thiamine induces SAR in plants through the salicylic acid and Ca2+-related signaling pathways. The findings provide a novel paradigm for developing alternative strategies for the control of plant diseases.

• Received December 21, 2004.
• Revised March 28, 2005.
• Accepted April 4, 2005.
• Published June 24, 2005.

Like sooooooo many things about indoor cultivation.....I am trying to tweek everything I can.

B vits aren't expensive.....unless you run down there and buy Advanced Nutrients version.:)

Its like.....whats it gonna hurt? Could it help?

Thats my 2 cents anywho...as always, IMHO.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Hip, we are not simply trying to giganticize everything, we are trying to maximize our output in comparison to our input. And one thing to always remember, too much of anything is no good. None of us are arguing that B-vitamins don't play a role in plant health, however we are saying that the addition of B-vitamin products to an effective nutrient regimen is unnecessary. If the rhizosphere is maintained properly and there are sufficient colonies of mycorrhizae, beneficial bacteria and trichoderma then the addition of any bottled B-vitamins becomes unnecessary as the micro-life and the plant itself provide all the necessary B-vitamins for proper plant health.

 

[Mississip Hip]

imho, chitin can get the job done for less $$ than thiamine. crab meal ftw.

Here is one study
Vitamin B1 Functions as an Activator of Plant Disease Resistance1

1. Thiamine
   • Thiamine or vitamin B-1, is believed to induce systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in plants, according to researchers at the Seoul National University. Korean researchers found that thiamine-treated rice and other vegetable crop plants showed increased resistance to fungal, bacterial and viral infections. Thiamine also activates the SAR-related gene in tomato, tobacco and cucumber plants, according to the study. The benefits of increased pathogen resistance helps growing plants fight off disease and yield healthier crops. Vitamin B-1 is commonly found in rooting hormone formulas and fertilizers.

;) This is a compost/crabmeal/oatmeal/tiny amount alfalfa "sachet" about to mold over for a late flower tea....got a little hair on her now. Smells like a bucket full of assholes.

 

[Mississip Hip]

Hip, we are not simply trying to giganticize everything, we are trying to maximize our output in comparison to our input. And one thing to always remember, too much of anything is no good. None of us are arguing that B-vitamins don't play a role in plant health, however we are saying that the addition of B-vitamin products to an effective nutrient regimen is unnecessary. If the rhizosphere is maintained properly and there are sufficient colonies of mycorrhizae, beneficial bacteria and trichoderma then the addition of any bottled B-vitamins becomes unnecessary as the micro-life and the plant itself provide all the necessary B-vitamins for proper plant health.

Input is cheap and easy insurance, IMHO. I am trying to gigantisize everything...with controls around quality, of course...lol. So the only way to quantify output is a University study on indoor cannabis varieties. Which has not happened that I know of. Thats the only thing that would answer this question with scientific reliablility....and then we would argue about THAT study....lol...:confused: :p

So we can all google, copy and paste arguments to support our opinion, because this discussion seems to be really old in gardening circles.

I'm no scientist, but with all the stresses we put plants under in a TURBOCHARGED indoor atmoshpere...it stands to reason (opinion:rolleyes:) that the plants immune/defense systems could be comprimised from time to time. Pests, over/under water, over/under feeding, weak strains, the list goes on and on. So why not make 50 ppms or so readily available all the time?

These studies are done in fields with hearty agriculture varieties of vegtables.
IMHO, its a whole different ball game inside with cannabis. Especially for noobs. When I was figuring stuff out....lol....I freaked my plants out regularly. I have an OG that is so weak and finicky...who knows what going on with its immune system? But damn, its some badass weed!

I dunno. Somebody pay UC Davis to do a study. I got 5 on it.:D