The myth of vitamin b-1

[squiggly]

I will bring it back in focus Cap.

Why would you use all these different chemicals to do what thiamine will do? If you want to make sure...use a little B1. The stuff I use is cheap....why fuck with asprin and DMSO?

If you are gonna try to boost SAR, that is.

I run about 50 ppms just in case. ANyhow...thats what I do.

I can understand avoidance to DMSO but salicylic acid is perfectly natural as I've said previously--and it simply does the job better than thiamine and is cheaper. It is produced in many plants as part of its natural defense--furthermore there are natural sources of it which can be fermented and produce a respectable level of it--where as with thiamine you are pretty much trapped into using processed chemicals.

 

[squiggly]

can you cite the source for this? pretty interesting.

btw, dmso used properly is a very effective transdermal carrier and has various therapeutic effects on it's own. caution with cleanliness is advised for reasons squiggly stated, but its history of hype/hysteria/suppression is hardly earned.

worth noting if you work with it, can dissolve nitrile gloves but latex are supposedly fine (read that after i'd already used the black nitrile ones with 99% and seemed ok). if you just read and follow the literature, it's not particularly dangerous.

It's a journal article, google should turn it up.

 

[dankworth]

THAT is exactly why I was researching vitamin B-1. The GA you posted on MOAB. Seems to me MKP plus MAP is all MOAB is. I don't care what DW says.

Could very well be, in fact I hope so, looking to reduce cost wherever possible.

 

[Capulator]

+.1 grams per gallon MAP
+ 1.07 grams per gallon MKP

= MOAB @ 1tsp/5 gal strength.

 

[reeldrag]

i have done true side by sides only differances were superthrive in one thrive alive in one and no b1 they finished the same could not c any differance at all. was happy to lower my nute costs but was pissed because all those yrs of wasted money :-(

 

[Kygiacomo]

B1 induces the plants SAR and makes it more resistant to disease..i never used superthrive last year was eat up with bud rot..in 2013 i did use it and i barely got a few specs of mold..i never put 2 and 2 together till i found the article below
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1176421/

this is another bit of info i pulled from another fourm as well so any outdoor growers might want to start adding b1 back..i will use aloe for the SA and superthrive for the b1 since i still have a bottle that i bought in 2013,but from here on out i will be putting a small cap full like 2-3 ml per gallon in my water up till end of 2nd week flower
Methods of inducing Local Acquired Resistance and Induced Systemic Resistance
Induced Resistance

(1) There is a diverse array of signals that stimulate IR.

(2) IR is a sensitization process that primes the plant for
more rapid deployment of defenses.

(3) When integrated into good agricultural practices, IR
can both enhance plant productivity and resistance to
disease.

(4) Has energetic costs


Types of induced resistance

1. Local acquired resistance (LAR)
2. Systemic acquired resistance (SAR)
3. Systemic gene silencing (SGS)
4. Induced systemic resistance (ISR)
5. Systemic wounding response (SWR)

Systemic Acquired Resistance

Controlled by salicylic acid (SA)
Broad resistance
More durable
Relies on the plants endogenous defenses
Classically effective against biotrophic pathogens

Chitosan

Chitosan is a plant defense booster derived through the breaking down of chitin found in shellfish and mullosks.
In general Chitosan can help improve the efficiency of a nutrient or fertilizer.
Chitosan will increase the quantity, size and shelf life of a harvest product. Chitosan is also effective at providing insect and disease control.
The chitosan molecule triggers a defence response within the plant, leading to the formation of physical and chemical barriers against invading pathogens.
Chitosan possesses a high growth stimulating efficacy combined with antifungal and antibacterial activity of systemic character. Chitosan cause no damage to the plant whatsoever.

Chitosan inhibits the reproduction of pathogens. Once applied either via foliar spray or through watering, it provides plant protection against fungal infection by rapid expression of a number of defense responses, including forming structural barriers at sites of attempted fungal attacks.
It also protects against insect attack by activating genes which produce protease inhibitors.
Lastly, chitosan stimulates the plants hormones responsible for root formation,stem growth, fruit formation and development.
In addition to promoting growth and protecting against attacks, using chitosan in a garden can help to improve the beneficial microbial activity of a growing medium.
This increase in microbial activity helps in conversion of nutrients to bio-available form. Chitosan improves the root system, allowing plants to absorb more nutrients from a medium.
We expect
Chitosan to become one of the top plant health and yield products as awareness of its value grows.

Salicylic Acid

The next additive in the this new class of Natural Plant Defenders is Salicylic Acid.
This specific plant molecule has two major functions. In the first it acts as a promoter letting the entire plant know (through the use of intercellular mechanisms) that pathogens are near.
The second way in which Salicylic Acid works is as an activator. It actually heightens the alarm signal a plant experiences. In plants, Salicylic Acid serves the function of ringing the alarm bell when a pathogenic organism begins to invade plant tissues.
A whole web of immunity-enhancing processes unfold after the plants are exposed to Salicylic Acid - when that initial alarm is rung.
A whole range of proteins and enzymes become activated as soon as Salicylic Acid is released and absorbed into plant cells.
Salicylic Acid also promotes DNA-binding proteins that initiate new protein synthesis.

Harpin protein

The final additive we would like to discuss is the Harpin protein. Harpin, like the other SAR products on this handout,
acts by eliciting a complex natural defense mechanism in plants, analogous to a broad spectrum immune
response in animals. Harpin simultaneously enhances a plant's own growth systems and natural defense mechanisms
to ward off attacks by insects, common diseases and plant stresses.

Unlike Salicylic Acid or Chitosan, Harpin uses a protein for its main mode of action. It can be safely used in a
synergistic way with both Salicylic Acid and Chitosan. Harpin is a naturally occurring bacterial protein present in a
number of species of plant pathogenic bacteria. The first harpin protein was isolated from the bacterium Erwinia
amylovora. To sum up Harpin’s benefits: Along with its plant inducing immune system response, Harpin accelerates
plant development. It increases root and shoot biomass, early flowering, early fruit set, early fruit maturation, and
increases fruit number.

B1 Thiamine

Strengthens plant immune systems so they better stand up to disease and stress.
B1 activates Systemic Acquired Resistance (SAR)

Silicon

Silicon induces the SAR response and enables suberization (cork development in cell walls).

Using Chitosan and Salicylic Acid Together

Compared to Salicylic Acid, Chitosan is slower and less effective at inducing plant cell immunity; in combination
with a well formulated Salicylic Acid solution, chitosan has compounded effects as Salicylic Acid amplifies the
“alarm” triggered by the chitosan. The most powerful products always use both of these ingredients.

 

[KirkMc]

the only thing I can add to this is I once germinated some seeds that were doing nothing with a cap full of miracle grow in a glass of water to saturate a paper towel. 80 % germination. So B germinates seeds in my book. What else I dont know.

 

[john martin]

Mendocino Avalanche by Grow More contains B1 in it, and all I can say is that shit works amazingly, especially when ramping up to 1 tsp per gallon.

It really helps tighen nugs up, especially strains with already tight nugs.

Phosphoric Acid, Copper Phoshphate, Seaweed Extract, Thiamine Hydrochloride (b1)

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Beyond that it is a HUGE molecule, do the plants even absorb it thru the roots? Are there any known active transport proteins in roots which take this stuff up. I have a hard time believing it's crossing a plasma membrane.

Bingo, Thats it in a nutshell, if it isnt uptaken it isnt able to do anything, period. But lots of "experts" in bro-science swear by it. Btw nice to see ya squiggly

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Mendocino Avalanche by Grow More contains B1 in it, and all I can say is that shit works amazingly, especially when ramping up to 1 tsp per gallon.

It really helps tighen nugs up, especially strains with already tight nugs.

Phosphoric Acid, Copper Phoshphate, Seaweed Extract, Thiamine Hydrochloride (b1)

To each his own, IMHO, people brand a product by throwing in ingredients that dont do anything besides making it brandable.

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Keep in mind people brand a product by throwing in ingredients that dont do anything besides making it brandable.

the only thing I can add to this is I once germinated some seeds that were doing nothing with a cap full of miracle grow in a glass of water to saturate a paper towel. 80 % germination. So B germinates seeds in my book. What else I dont know.

seeds have all the nutrients they need to start life in cotyledon leaves that traslocate nutrients to the seedling,until nutrients are needed when the next set of leaves emerge.

Perhaps they just needed more time to pop under other environmental circumstances. Freezing seeds first (cold stratification) helps as well, be careful not to burn them with nutes.

 

[Brendan C]

Its really about knowing what your using your supplement for. I use a b1 supplement, but NOT as a root or even vegetative growth stimulator! I use it to feed my microbial population and help them flourish. It helps them if they should potentially encounter a harmful pathogen that they might not be able to normally overpower, this is especially true used as a foliar spray against powdery mildew.
These statements are from research and personal experience.
Stronger healthier microbial populations appear as much healthier root zones and roots so the original idea isnt really so far off

 

[FarmerX]

This is an older, but great thread.

With all of this said, what are the opinions about Vitamins C and D?

 

[Brendan C]

That's actually the same thing I've been looking into. Those are good findings but are only about 40% relevant to cannabis. I'm looking at experimenting with adding different fruits and vegetables to compost tea to see how their vitamins affect it. But I need things like green beans that are easy to find content of and only contain maybe 2 or 3 vitamins at a time

 

[DemetriDutch]

I have been doing some reading this morning on vitamin b-1... and I don't think I will be buying it anymore.

thoughts?

Hi! I just recently joined because I was looking to see if adding a B-Vitamin mixture to a foliar spray would be beneficial and found this thread stating the Myths of using it. I think some new research has been done and B-Vitamins actually IS good for your plants. I started the video when the scientist starts talking about B-Vitamins. It is short. I would like to hear your thoughts. I am on my first grow and am afraid I spent way too much on fertilizer and supplements. Click YouTube vid supporting the use of Vitamin B to watch the short vid.

 

[Frankster]

To each his own, IMHO, people brand a product by throwing in ingredients that dont do anything besides making it brandable.

Bingo, Thats it in a nutshell, if it isnt uptaken it isnt able to do anything, period. But lots of "experts" in bro-science swear by it. Btw nice to see ya squiggly

Is your body able to "absorb" Vit B? Is it even able to "create" some forms of Vit B on it's own? nope. It' requires it from another source... Think about how long B vitamins stay in your system, hours, not days.... There water soluble, so they don't stay around long...

Bottom line, Vit B, and especially Pantothenic acid aka Vit B5 aka 3-[(2,4-dihydroxy-3,3-dimethylbutanoyl)amino]propanoic acid is critical, essential for fatty acid metabolism (in all life forms) – as well as to, in general, synthesize and metabolize proteins, carbohydrates, and fats.... aka phospholipids...

Something's not bro science just because we don't comprehend it.
Pantothenic acid, is one of the most important vitamins for human life. Furthermore, Bacteria synthesize pantothenic acid from the amino acids aspartate and a precursor to the amino acid valine. Aspartate is converted to β-alanine. The amino group of valine is replaced by a keto-moiety to yield α-ketoisovalerate, which, in turn, forms α-ketopantoate following transfer of a methyl group, then D-pantoate (also known as pantoic acid) following reduction. β-alanine and pantoic acid are then condensed to form pantothenic acid

When growing plants in tissue culture, it is often helpful or even necessary to add some of the B vitamins. Specifically B1, B6, niacin and B12 are used. Germination of many seeds is accelerated by small doses of vitamins of the B group (niacin, thiamin, folic acid) and vitamin C


Not all B vitamins are big molecules either, that's false, or partially true at best. At minimum, the bigger ones will throw useful species, and can easily be deconstructed into "parts" by enzymes only to be reconstructed en masse as intracellular components. These molecular ratio's are what's key here, not the size, or if/when they can be deconstructed or reconstructed, because that's not in question, whatsoever.