uc vs aeroponics

[deseee]

Firstly, I'm only a few weeks into this whole HP aero thing, so take that into consideration.

What is your experience level, and how necessary is it for you to harvest?

7 years off and on, mostly RDWC using Lucas formula, I could always utilize some of the space as DWC in order to have a backup.

Also, what's your budget?

up to $3000 but would very much prefer to keep it well under that as I still have some other things on my shopping list


I'm above average in experience (started in the late 90s), have a fairly large amount of money to throw at this (for an enthusiast level grower), and this is simply a hobby for me, so I can take the plunge and afford a failure or two along the way.

If you're growing to pay your bills and you're not at least an intermediate level grower, there's probably better systems for you than designing a new room around an HP aero setup - not trying to discourage you, but just to help you make an informed decision - if a week before I harvest a pump goes out and I lose my entire crop, I'll be pissed but I'll still have a roof over my head and food on the table.

You can certainly build in redundancies to mitigate the points of weakness in the system, but that gets (even more) expensive and complicated; just wanna make sure you've thought this over before investing lots of time and money in something that may or may not be the best option for your particular needs.

I've no problem paying for quality and piece of mind for the right products. I will be able to give the grow a lot more attention soon due to an impending job loss, but I'd still like to automate as much as possible with the necessary backups and spares on hand to handle any emergencies

Answers in blue, Cheers mate!

 

[Bobby Smith]

Lol, you're not allowed to use Heath - that's just not fair :)

In actuality, as I was pointing out what I thought were the inefficiencies in *usual* RDWC systems, I was thinking of how efficient Heath's systems were...........one pump, water is aerated through waterfall action, etc...........to me, that's efficient.

And one of the reasons (IMO) that you rarely see an impressive aero grow is that they're so few and far between, and (again, IMO) most of the people running them (that I've come across, anyhow) are across the pond and won't ever post up pics of plants (Internet privacy is a joke in the UK)...........of the 10-15 people I've run across (on the Net) who actually run and are knowledgeable about HP aero setups, only Tree Farmer and FOAF actually showed pics of plants........most aren't too keen to share plant pics, which I can respect.

BTW, fully agree with you on the D2W aspect - was debating that for months (D2W vs. Recirc) and feel like I found The Grail in HP aero...........Tree Farmer is working on some things, and Foaf was as well before using only a 5 gallon container to try to grow a 2+lber caught up to him...........you're right, it's much less user friendly than "fill up this bucket with water and put a plant in it", so the ratio of RDWC growers to HP aero growers has gotta be hundreds to 1.........so you're not gonna see too many great harvests, unfortunately - that being said, let's both of us do our parts to change that :)

EDIT: BTW, before vertically hung bulbs became popular, there weren't too many pics of those online.........same for vertical octagons (two years ago I couldn't find one, now there's shitloads)..........shit, same for RDWC..........everything starts somewhere :evilgrin0040:

 

[deseee]

Hi Bobby

Very fair response and answer. One big big problem, however, is in real world practice, DWC/RDWC produces the most impressive buds by far that I have seen.

As a current RDWC'r I can attest to the results of the system especially when plant numbers are a concern. From my experience you will run into a few problems that you may want to keep in mind.
1st is to grow the big plants you need a longer proper veg time and lots of training/pruning which cuts into the number of crops you can do over time. 2nd big plants will clog your return lines, I've had some success using E&F screens with a piece of pantyhose material affixed to it, but you will still get a clog occasionally. Pondliner on the floor of your growroom is essential because you will invariably have a flood that dumps all the water from your res.
3rd is an increased chance of mold and root rot due to heat because you have so much plant material in one area that airflow becomes a huge issue even with multiple fans.
4th is the need for support of the buds in flower because they will get so heavy that they break the stalks, I've had some success using these tomato cages http://www.amazon.com/California-Plastic-TMC60-Ultomato-Cage/dp/B000RUM0R4
5th Cost of Nutes, even doing lucas formula the amount of nutes used in RDWC is staggering, but I'm sure Advanced and GH just love guys that change there res's every week.
6th noise, waterfalls & pumps make a good bit of noise which can be a concern to some.

Glad to see someone else is thinking of taking the HPA plunge as well though!

 

[Bobby Smith]

Answers in blue, Cheers mate!

So is your room (AC, lights, ventilation, etc.) already setup? Is that $3K budget just for your nute delivery system?

If so, you've got plenty to get setup :)

How many plants did you want to run in that space? Somewhere in the 10-20 range, I'd guess? Really just depends on the MI laws, I suppose.

 

[deseee]

I still need to pick up some more ballasts and cordsets, bulbs, a climate controller, and I have to run some new electrical and plumbing, but I can source most of that after I've gotten the system set up. So conservatively I'd say $1200 for just the HPA.

I can have up to 72 plants and would like to have the capacity to flower all 72 if possible although i realize that may not be doable logically in the space.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Pick your poison on which of these tanks you want - this is the only manufacturer (to my knowledge, after lotsa searching) that makes tanks rated up to 150PSI (in the US, TF said he had to order from overseas for his high pressure tanks):



I'm looking at upgrading to the 34 gallon, personally.

Then you're gonna want two of these pumps:



A Grainger pressure switch like the one I got (set for 100-125PSI), and then a backup set for (throwing out a number here) 90-98PSI, or something like that.



Depending on how many plants/misters you're running, you're gonna need a few of these:



Then you need your misters, your adapters (to connect the misters to the tubing - I didn't look around, but if you could find misters with built in quick connect fittings, you'd be sitting pretty - the adapters are like $5 a piece, which adds up with lots of misters), your fittings, your tubing, pressure relief valve, pressure gauge........and I think that's about it - oh, you're DEFINITELY gonna wanna get a UPS to account for power outages - a small one (like 250 watts) would cover you for a day+ (actually a lot more if you got a large expansion tank).

Knowing what I know now, I could (IMO) pretty easily setup a room your size for half your budget.

Pressure tank - $250 (go big, it's definitely worthwhile, IMO)
Two pumps - $250
Two pressure switches - $125
Misters (assuming 40) - $60
Tubing, fittings (this is where you get ASS FUCKED) - $500
UPS, miscellaneous - $250
Solenoids (assume 10) - $150

Even going high on the tubing/fittings number, you should be able to pretty easily do your setup for $1500, $2K at max.

 

[squarepusher]

Aero isnt' terribly expensive, you are looking at shelling out for
tank
pump
misters nozzles and tube fittings
random various valves and such

and that's basically it. I'll post some pics of my new aero setup to come, but I like to cut corners, Bobby's is much better done

 

[tokinupon1]

Are u guys using check valve nozzles I see a few companies make them anyweres from 30-80psi any suggestions?

 

[deseee]

Thanks Bobby and squarepusher that's exactly the type of information I was looking for :) Seeing it typed out like that it's starting to finally make some sense to me, although I'm sure I'll still have more questions as I start to piece this thing together... I'd still love to get your 2 cents as well John.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Link Dump

Are u guys using check valve nozzles I see a few companies make them anyweres from 30-80psi any suggestions?

I hear they're not that great; having solenoids directly before the misters is a much better option.

Now, I'm gonna dump some links (if any of the more hacker-minded know how to find these first two links online, don't be shy)..........

http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=46

http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=48

http://www.biocontrols.com/aero17.htm

http://www.biocontrols.com/Videos/Aero200.htm

http://www.biocontrols.com/aero28.htm

 

[john guest]

Thanks Bobby and squarepusher that's exactly the type of information I was looking for :) Seeing it typed out like that it's starting to finally make some sense to me, although I'm sure I'll still have more questions as I start to piece this thing together... I'd still love to get your 2 cents as well John.

72 plants..hmm that`s borderline for my manual pump approach but thats how i`d do it if i was able to visit the room once a day. Being thrifty i`d opt to cut the financial outlay in favour of a slightly increased workload. Due to the simplicity you don`t need to double up on hardware, a few spare solenoid coils and maybe a spare timer for peace of mind.

My shopping list would look something like this:

manual pump (i spotted one on ebay for $150 yesterday)
large accumulator $250
10x 12v solenoids (same price as 120v) $160
12v cycle timer $90 dont forget the timer ;)
fittings $500
Nozzles $60
12v power supply (recycle a pc psu) $0
12v battery for backup and a relay with 120v coil to switch it over on mains failure $ not very much

I would recommend adding a pressure reducer/regulator to your shopping list, it will maintain a constant output pressure from the accumulator, maybe another $40.

Here`s a few numbers to give you some idea of the workload.
Using 40 nozzles on a 1 sec/5min cycle with a 34gal accumulator (running 90-125psi). It would take 30 minutes at a leisurely pace to manually charge the tank to 125psi initially but you only need to do this once.
After that, 5 minutes a day will maintain the tank at 125psi. If you get lazy and allow it to run down, it`ll take about 3 days to drop from 125psi to 90psi, depending on the real flow rate of the nozzles.
The pump can be hooked into the system using a one way valve and a tee fitting, you can add charge to the tank whenever you are in the room.

If you don`t fancy the manual pump option, use a normal diaphragm pump (preferably 12v) in its place. You`ll only need it once every 3 days so it`ll last forever.

 

[Bobby Smith]

John, what is the advantage in using 12V as opposed to running 120V and having a reasonable sized UPS as a backup?

I mean, even a 250 watt UPS (like $40 or $50) would power my entire electrical system (pump, timer, and solenoids) for the better part of 24 hours, if not longer (and that's with my current small tank - it would last for half a week+ with a larger tank) - I can see if you go through power outages that last days at a time, but short of that (in which case I'd say "move" anyways) what is the benefit?

EDIT: and John, do you think a pressure regulator would do my setup any good? If so, what benefits would it add?

 

[john guest]

I like the safety aspect of having 12v dc rather than 240v ac anywhere near water.
Fine mist is hard to contain, one drip in the wrong place can trip an rcd which then takes out all the power. Low voltage dc is immune to water unless its submerged ;) The 12v power/manual pump arrangement has the lowest hardware count (no pressure switches, relief valves etc) and is pretty much unaffected by most of the common issues.

A regulator holds the output pressure stable, the variable tank pressure affects the nozzle flow rate and that has a knock-on affect to the droplet size.

A 16-bar accumulator tank with regulator is a great space saver. Charge the tank to 220psi and regulate the output to 100psi. It takes 1/3rd of the space, an 11.75gal tank running 220-100psi holds the same amount as a 34gal tank running 125-100psi.

 

[deseee]

Thanks for the info John! Manual is awesome, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to use the manual pump all the time as there is a very real possibility that I could be gone for a week or 2 at a time, so I think I'd need an electric pump anyway just for the times when I wont be at the grow.

I'm having a hell of a time sourcing a 16 bar tank the only one I can find is on ebay and it gives no specs in relation to psi or how big it is
any ideas what else they could be called or what they are usually used for?

I already have the room set up with GFCI 120v outlets and thanks to my old job have a HUGE computer UPS (one of the $400+ ones made for servers) so would it still make sense to go 12v? also the 240v and the ballasts are not located in the same room because of all the heat if that makes a diff.

just to double check these are the fittings i need for the misters?

Also where did you source your hp tubing from Bobby? I've found this stuff made for cars but not much else...

thanks again for the help everyone!

 

[Bobby Smith]

Deseee, if you're not going the manual route than there's really no reason (that I know of) to go up to pressures that high - I think the tanks I linked you would be a better call, but I'll wait on John to confirm - methinks a 34 gallon tank would last you for a day (probably a lot more, depending on lotsa of factors) between the pump cutting in and out.

And if it were me, I'd go 120V all the way - yeah, it's not quite as safe, but if you already have all the 120V setup (like I did, plus you have a large UPS) than to me it's a no brainer.

Lol, yup, those are the fittings :)

And I sourced my tubing from here, but that was out of convenience as I'd already planned on ordering the fittings from here as well:

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-328-polyethylene-tubing-nsf58.aspx

A quick Google search brought me to this place, which seems to be about 25% cheaper across the board (I looked for 20 seconds, I'd imagine there are even better deals out there):

http://www.waterafilters.com/fittings-valves-tubing-water-tubing-c-5_42.html?sort=2a&page=1

 

[john guest]

120v is probably the best idea if you have the UPS sitting there. My solenoids are literally an inch from the nozzle so its a little reckless to use a 240v version in that situation.
16-bar (232psi) tanks are pretty common here but its seems not so easy to find over your side of the pond, a 10bar (150psi) tank will be fine and definitely the better choice if your pump cant manage 200psi + :)
Be aware that large tanks can have lower maximum working pressure limits so its best to double check that before buying a really huge tank. You can add more tanks at any time to increase your capacity, all you need is the additional tank and a tee fitting.
Being thrifty i`d buy one tank to get started and then keep an eye on ebay for bargains :)

 

[Bobby Smith]

John, posted this at another place but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter (of course, I'm already shopping for dental compressors, lol) - anyone else who has thoughts/knowledge on the matter, please chime in as well:

So, I'm curious what people's thoughts are on air assisted vs. traditional HPA.

Why do people seem to think that air-assisted is "better"? I'm confused by that - as far as I can tell, there's nothing that air-assisted can do that you can't do with HPA cheaper, more efficiently, and simpler.

Is this just a case of people thinking that something more expensive and complicated is better, or are there advantages that I'm missing?

Just as a start, perhaps we could start to list the pros and cons of each (really just HPA, as by definition a "PRO" for HPA will be a "CON" for AA, and vice versa, as it's a comparison).

HPA:

PROS:
Cheaper initial setup, and much easier to expand (basically $1K worth of air compressor for every nozzle, whereas a 50 gallon accumulator could power 100s of nozzles)
Less power consumption (pump runs for seconds/hour at 1.5amps vs. air compressor running for a minute or two per hour at 12 amps)
Nozzle price allows for full coverage of any size/shape container
Easy to build in redundancies
Parts easy to source
Simpler setup without as much dialing in (as opposed to dialing in air pressure/flow and liquid pressure/flow together, yikes)

CONS:
Less flexibility
Without being well setup, droplet size can vary greatly from the start to finish of misting cycle
If not silenced, pump is louder than a "silent" air compressor
Due to crazy nozzle cost, hard to get as good a coverage on containers (could install 40 misting nozzles for the price of one air-assisted).

 

[john guest]

AA is the top tier of aero, you have to be very dedicated or slightly crazy to go that route :)
A recent test showed a single AA nozzle can fill a 27gal chamber. The mist contained just under 1ml (0.034 us fl oz) of liquid.
The same coverage with HP would take at least 4 nozzles. To deliver the same amount of liquid they`ll need to be 0.23gph each with a misting duration of 1 second. No run on allowed :)
For four standard 0.8gph nozzles you`d need a misting duration of 0.3 seconds. Its a tall order but doable with the right timer as long as the solenoids are right at the nozzles.

 

[deseee]

Conundrum time, would love your guys inputs. orders from pex supply above $300 get free shipping, the 35 gallon tank is 259.95 + $44.14 shipping = $304.09 http://www.pexsupply.com/Amtrol-147N130-THERM-X-TROL-ST-60V-Expansion-Tank-34-Gallon-Volume

The also have some relief valves and regulators that I'm not sure would work in the system but if they do could bump me up past the $300 needed for free shipping.
Relief: http://www.pexsupply.com/Relief-Valves-313000
Regulator: http://www.pexsupply.com/Pressure-Valves-221000

If none of those work then I may be best off going for this 44 gallon for $324.95 that qualifies for free shipping by itself. http://www.pexsupply.com/Amtrol-147N131-THERM-X-TROL-ST-80V-Expansion-Tank-44-Gallon-Volume Thoughts?

 

[john guest]

Hi deseee
If you fill the tank on a fixed schedule you won`t need the relief valve or a pressure switch which can save a few $$$. All you need to do is keep an eye on the tank pressure gauge and recharge using the pump when it gets down to 95psi. If you keep the same cycle timing, the drawdown will be the same everytime and you`ll know how many days/weeks the tank will run before you need to get the pump out again :)
To automate the process, you`ll need the pressure switch and a relief valve for safety. Chances are you`ll be mixing nutes to coincide with the pump so it makes sense to use the fixed schedule method. The automated route could leave your nutes sitting for a week waiting for the pump to fire up.

If you opt to include a regulator, the maximum output setting is likely to be 90psi (its hard to find one that allows a higher output adjustment than 6 bar).
A 34gal tank running from 125psi-90psi will give you ~8.5gals of nutes at a constant 90psi. A 44gal tank is around 11 gals.
If you don`t use a regulator you gain a higher minimum pressure, you lose the benefit of constant pressure and of course the higher minimum pressure reduces the tank capacity. Using 125-100psi equates to ~6gal for the 34gal tank and ~7.8gal for the 44gal tank.

How long the tankwill run between recharges depends on the number of nozzles, the flowrate and the timing cycle.