uc vs aeroponics

[Jalisco Kid]

Like you, I'm learning this shit by the seat of my pants, so bear with me - that being said, I *think* I can answer your questions (but please JG or JK correct me if I'm wrong).

1) To figure out your true PSI, you'd need one of these:

http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD4Q8wIwAg#

2) Your real flow rate you could estimate pretty well (post #18 from the link above has the mathematical breakdown, but it's pretty simple to figure out), but you'd have to account for some variables that the equation can't (distance, loss, etc.)

3) Can't help you on the regulator question

4) See #2 above..........figure out how many GPM will flow through your nozzles at a given PSI, then match that to a pump that can/will output roughly that amount (a little more is better, methinks) at that pressure.

Again, let me reiterate that's my understanding, but someone could correct me if I'm wrong.........

I would use 80% of what the manufacturer states, as they rarely preform at those flows. Plus you need to add run length,height,and 45* and 90* in your design. JK

 

[Bobby Smith]

Thanks JK, I knew there were some frictions and other things that couldn't be very well captured in a "theoretical" setting and needed some real world numbers.

Now onto me.........in the last two minutes I've ordered this pump and these nozzles (the white nozzles, 80*):





As far as I can tell (lol, prolly should've asked before I placed those orders), I just need to run reservoir--->prefilter----->pump----->3/8" to 1/4" reducing tee (splitting the feed off to both sides for equal pressure)------>tubing from nozzle to nozzle.

Am I missing anything? I already have a short cycle timer, so that's covered..........just the prefilter, John Guest fittings, and tubing, right?

EDIT: I'm gonna be doing DTW, if that matters (don't think it should).

DOUBLE EDIT: just ordered the prefilter and the fittings, so now I think all I need is the 3/8" to 1/4" reducing TEE and the tubing and I'm good to go.........

 

[john guest]

bobby i have been reading that thread and it def helps alot. I now have new questions hahah. For this example im going to use some imaginary made up numbers.

PUMP
0.91 gpm @ 70 psi,
0.81 gpm @ 80 psi,
0.67 gpm @90 psi,
0.38 gpm at 100 psi

Nozzles
@70 psi .0159 gpm per nozzle
@100 psi .0211 gpm per nozzle

Now using these figures lets say i used a setup of 10 nozzles. I hook up my pump and run it. How would i really now what my systems true psi is. How would i know what my real flow rate was? Wouldnt i need some sort of regulator. Obviously the more noozles you add the lower the pressure drops and vice versa. How do i fig out how many nozzles i can use for a specific pump

Here`s how i would do it based on the imaginary nozzle and pump specs.
Accumulator: 10gal (80psi cut-in, 100psi cut-out)
Assumed cycle timing: 1sec on /3mins off
Nutes delivered: 1.75gal / 24hrs.

The tank will run the 10 nozzles for 24hours at a minimum of 80psi.
The pump will run once every 24hours for 4minutes 40seconds to recharge the tank to 100psi.

 

[Bobby Smith]

JG and JK, really appreciate all your help so far, but I had one quick question - is my idea in the post above about right? Obviously not running an accumulator with solenoids for this run (just dabbing my foot in the pool this time, but will be diving into it in the future).

"As far as I can tell (lol, prolly should've asked before I placed those orders), I just need to run reservoir--->prefilter----->pump----->3/8" to 1/4" reducing tee (splitting the feed off to both sides for equal pressure)------>tubing from nozzle to nozzle.

Am I missing anything? I already have a short cycle timer, so that's covered..........just the prefilter, John Guest fittings, and tubing, right?"

 

[squarepusher]

thanks alot john that really helps. I still am slightly confused on what i would use as a cycle timer, is there any way you could post a link or maybe a picture. An example of how all these components assemble would be awesome.

http://www.amazon.com/CAP-ART-DNe-Adjustable-Recycle-Timer/dp/B00286QNDM

 

[Bobby Smith]

That's the timer I have, but it needs to be calibrated with a stopwatch - it's nowhere near accurate in terms of what the knobs say (but once calibrated it works pretty well).

There's a link to a MUCH better short cycle timer in the thread that was linked above - it's used for industrial applications and looks to be the tits..........gonna grab one of those eventually.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Holy fuck is that annoying.........just had a mammoth post that got lost in the sauce.

Anyhow, here we go again - John, I need your help and would love it if you could give me 5-10 minutes of your time..........I'd really appreciate it.

Try to keep this as short and to the point as possible - changed my mind and am looking to go with an accumulator tank and solenoids now.

1) Is a 100 micron inline filter a decent size before the pump, or do I need to step it down to 60? If 60 micron, do you have a link or name for me to Google?

2) Is the Lowes Wellsaver 2 gallon tank a good size for me? Can that handle higher pressures?

3) Is this the pump I want (see link below)? It says that there's a 100PSI demand switch, but how do I know at what PSI the pump turns off at? Or do I need a cutoff switch? Trying to keep this as simple as possible, so if the pump has everything I need that'd be the tits.

If the pump below isn't what I want, which one from that site do I want?



4) Gonna try to run everything but the pump off of 12V to account for possible power outages - can a 12V battery handle a short cycle timer and those solenoids? How would I run multiple devices off of one battery?

5) Planning on going with this timer, but there's some options and I'd like to make sure I'm ordering the right one:
http://www.iseincstore.com/422_timer.aspx

a) I think I want the 1/10 range instead of the 5/50
b) 12VDC power supply
c) OFF/ON or ON/OFF - ?? Have no idea......
d) Repeat cycle

Lots more questions but we can start with those for now...........thanks again for all your help and info.

 

[TightBush]

thanks for everyone helping out i appreciate it. When i asked my question earlier about knowing my real PSI with my imaginary nozzles i should have mentioned WITHOUT using an accumulator. I tihnk it would be impossible without a gauge.

Bobby im in the same position as you and im about to order all my supplies and im still not sure what is the best idea, running with an accumulator or without. Im pretty sure im leaning towards using the accumulator. I still dont know what a pump internal bypass is? You still need a pressure switch im assuming. I also was looking at the lowes wellsaver too so let me know

 

[TightBush]

ok so after more and more research i have found that an internal bypass valve is used to prevent pressure buildup however some of the info i have read tells me that if the pressure builds to much the internal bypass valve will return the fluid back to the reservoir and other info says it returns the fluid back to the pump inlet. Does anyone know anything about this? If it does return the fluid back to the rez then how. Is there another opening on the pump for the bypass valve to drain out of?


From random posts i have read they mention that having bypass valve eliminates the need for accumulator tank. It seems that using tank would allow you to use way more nozzles considering you have all that stored "energy" ready to go. Also the posts mention using pump with bypass is better because it allows you to keep a constant pressure without having to deal with the slow pressure drop that you would get as the tank emptys. I understand some of that theory but again, if you dont use an accumulator tank then the pump will lose more and more pressure as you add more and more nozzles to the point that it couldnt keep up, it seems with a tank that problem would be less of an issue but IDK anyone care to enlighten me

 

[Bobby Smith]

Lol bro, I'm as lost as you are..........just emailed the company that I ordered the pump from last night to hold off on shipping because I think I want this one instead:



Looked at the manual for it and it *seems* like the pump turns on when pressure drops to 115PSI and turns off at 140PSI..............I have a feeling that solenoids and accumulator tanks are gonna have a serious price jump over 125PSI, so I need to do some more research (EDIT: doesn't seem to be the case)...........but here's a good site I've been checking out with specs on all their pumps:

http://www.pumpagents.com/pdf/ShurfloPumps/8030-863-239.pdf

That's the pdf for the pump I'm thinking of getting, but that whole site has good info on all the pumps.............lol, John Guest has created a couple of monsters.......

EDIT: just ordered four of the solenoids off of Ebay (from the link above, the 3/8" ones) - specs said they went up to 150PSI, and I'm planning on maxing out at 140PSI.

Also found this little gem of an accumulator tank, but I'm gonna wait for the go-ahead before ordering.............JG or JK, would this work for me? Says it can handle 150PSI.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453060369&linkfrom=froogle

Actually, probably go with the 4.4 gallon one instead (pump would run less):

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453062440

 

[john guest]

TB
The bypass forces the liquid into a closed loop, effectively making the pump "mark time".
An accumulator`s flowrate (gpm) is limited by how much flow the pipework can handle but it`ll be more than you ever need. Increasing the number of nozzles only effects the drawdown time of the tank.
The tank can deliver the high flowrate in one short burst lasting under a second, a pump will need a few seconds at least.
Some threads mention running a bypass pump constantly and using a solenoid to control the misting duration. The only problem is the pump will overheat and wear excessively if its operated in bypass mode for any length of time. Its designed to be a safety feature.
Pressure drop from the tank isn`t an issue if you fit a pressure regulator, it will maintain a constant output pressure regardless of the flow.

The pump versus accumulator debate is very common. Its worth remembering a guy with a pump can`t test both methods, a guy with a tank and a pump can :)

If you can, go for the highest pressure rated tank your pump can service and use a regulator. A 6.6gal tank running from 230psi-90psi will hold exactly the same amount as a 17gal tank running 120psi-90psi. As long as the regulator can handle the tankside pressure, you can use lower rated solenoids downstream of the regulator as it`ll only be ~90psi.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

If it matters running a accum tank will make it quieter. JK

 

[frophead]

Wow really glad I came back and checked this thread! The idea of using a manual pump to charge an accumulator tank is new to me...and I think it is an absolutely badass idea! Very simple using the manual method, I mean who needs automatic when you only need to charge maybe once or twice a week?

I see your point as to why the mistking pumps might not be optimal. That definitely makes sense. I still think it might work decent for a small op as a kind of cheap-n-easy route, but if we're spending into the hundreds on something who wants the ghetto version? :P

I'm going to stick with an RDWC setup for now, and save my pennies for that badass manual pump, a good pressure tank, a solenoid valve and a timer. The setup cost is really very reasonable when you consider how long a system like that could last. I really like the idea of manual charging a tank for the week and using a solenoid valve hooked to a timer to control misting intervals. I have a buddy who is a professional plumber and I'm pretty sure he could hook me up with a tank and the works for cheap, if not for trade, and help me with the calculations for charging the tank etc.

Thanks John Guest and everyone for your valuable insight. This is one of the most enlightening threads I have ever seen on HP aero.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Quick Questions

John and JK, thanks so much for checking in - I know this isn't the way one is supposed to delve into HP aero, but I'm flying by the seat of my pants here and would love one of you to answer a couple of quick questions for me:

1) This pump turns on when pressure drops below 115PSI and off when pressure gets up to 150PSI, correct?

http://www.pumpagents.com/pdf/ShurfloPumps/8030-863-239.pdf

Assuming that's correct, I simply need a tank and solenoids, correct? (have the fittings and misters on the way already) Ordered the solenoids last night, so that leaves me with the tank - would this one be suitable?

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453062440

Since the pump has a built-in pressure switch (I'm assuming), all I need is a pressure relief valve (for safety to make sure the tank doesn't turn into a bomb if the pump malfunctions and runs continuously) - would this work?

http://www.amazon.com/Cash-Acme-Temperature-Pressure-18822A-0150/dp/B000R9TOOM

Or would the pump crap out before it was able to deliver enough pressure to blow up the tank, rendering the relief valve not necessary?

5) Planning on going with this timer, but there's some options and I'd like to make sure I'm ordering the right one:
http://www.iseincstore.com/422_timer.aspx

a) I think I want the 1/10 range instead of the 5/50
b) 12VDC power supply
c) OFF/ON or ON/OFF - ?? Have no idea......
d) Repeat cycle




Although I'm addressing this to JK and JG, anyone else who knows the answers is (obviously) more than welcome to chime in.

 

[john guest]

Hi Bob
1.yep
2. yep, make sure the tank and solenoids can handle all the pressure and then some. If everything is right on the limit and you get a spike, something might give :)
Be aware the switches on pumps can be of dubious quality so the setting may drift a bit. Personally i`m not confortable taking the pressure right to the tanks limit but you can if you like.
A 4.4gal tank running from 150psi to 115psi will give you about 0.935gal of nutes to work with.
3. A pressure relief valve is a very good idea if the pump runs while you`re not around.
4. see 3.
5a. 1/10 (gives you options of 0-1 sec or 1-10 sec ON and upto 10 min Off)
5b. whatever the solenoid coil voltage is.. 12v?
5c. on/off (mist on / mist off)
5d. repeat cycle

 

[Bobby Smith]

John, you are the man, my friend............just to make sure before I order it that we're on the same page for the timer.

So I want "ON/OFF" and not "OFF/ON"? The default setting (to order off of the website) is "OFF/ON"...........just want to double check before I order it.

Thanks again bro, and after these I've got lots more questions for ya :)

BTW, gonna adjust the pump to turn off at 140PSI (it's adjustable from 140-160), so the tank and solenoids will both be rated for 150PSI - hopefully this will be okay.

Thanks - so after I order this timer I just need the tubing and a 12V car battery, methinks (in addition to little gauges and shit).

EDIT: and this looks like a 4.5 gallon tank for $50 - thoughts?



DOUBLE EDIT: just ordered that tank, said fuck it. Hopefully it works.......now I just need to order the timer, but wanna make sure John and I are on the same page regarding the ON/OFF option......

 

[Bobby Smith]

All right, I said fuck it and just ordered everything today, so here's the price list if anyone else wants to give this a shot (prices include shipping, and links are above for the specific items):

150PSI pump - $171
30 misters - $45
4.5 gallon tank - $67
12V solenoids (4) - $34
12V timer - $96
Fittings and tubing (this is where you get fucked) - $225
100 micron inline filtere - $17

That's what I've bought (ordered) so far, and I'm sure there's at least another $1-200 worth of random shit (gauges, check valves, 12V battery, etc.), but I think that the stuff above gets me *just about* there.

Now..........who the fuck knows how to wire up this timer and solenoid to a 12V battery? :)

 

[john guest]

Now you`ve got me thinking about the timer on/off lol.
The off/on version could be construed as the output is initially OFF and triggers ON for say 1 sec.
In which case on/off, could be ON initially and then trigger OFF for 1 sec.

Most cycle timers have an ON time adjustment and an OFF time adjustment and use changeover contacts on both so you can wire them up for either on/off or off/on :)

Might be worth sending an email and tell them you need to trigger ON for 1 second and wait for 3 minutes and repeat and see which they recommend on/off or off/on.

I make my own cycle timers and they`re easier to fathom than that lol

edit: After looking at the spec sheet, the off/on type seems favourite.
As to wiring, pins 2 (-) and 7 (+) provide power to the timer circuitry. The remaining 6 pins are the DPDT relay, pins 1 and 8 are common, pins 4 and 5 are N/C, pins 3 and 6 are N/O.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Lol, thanks for getting back to me - I'll call them first thing tomorrow morning and see what the deal is.......

I sure hope you hang around for a bit and give me some help putting all this shit together :)

EDIT: sent an email into the company and will call tomorrow morning as well to make sure I get the correct timer..........here's the manual:

http://instrumentation-central.com/atc/328.pdf

 

[TightBush]

Bob im glad your asking these questions because they are the same questions i need to know as well. Ive learned alot from your posts and i wanna continue to thank everyone who is contributing to this thread. Im basically at the same step as you and im ordering my pump tonight as well. I think im going with the same one that you ordered. I know your supposed to use a filter before the pump, can anyone post a pic or a link of the correct one i need to use. Bob how are you gonna hook up your relief valve.