Using Oxygen Generator to increase DO.

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pacog

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Ok Farmers I have a question for you all and would like a bit of Input.

Now from all the research done as of late the Higher concentrations of DO in the water the Better. Oxygen helps in many different ways and there are to many to list. I had an Idea to Introduce More Pure Oxygen into Res.

Now I was thinking of using a Oxygen Generator, most of these units take the normal air and turn it into 90-95% Pure Oxygen and some of the larger units output pressure can be as much as 12psi( Thats greater than most Commercial air pumps). Why not pump this High concentration of Oxygen directly into the res. using airs stones ect.

Or my other Idea was to take one of the Oxygen Generators with lower output production and pump the 90-95% Oxygen directly to a box with a Air Pump in it and pump that to res.

This in theory Should Create A SUPER Charged Oxygen rich environment.

Let me know what you guys think and wether or not it would make a difference.
 
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fatman

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Without discussing your growing method a high CD discussion is moot.

For most mj grows why would they want to waste time, energy and expense to for a very d short time super saturate your water with DO as the superaturation will only be temporary. It is simple to maintain high DO in a nutrient reservoir. The common problem is how to deliver the high DO water to all root surfaces. The plants roots unless at high temps do not really need high DO.

There is always the possibilty of too much O2 being present.

The type of systems you describe are commonly used with sewage treatment plants where DO demands are hugh. The DO must be supplied at levels much higher that used in any mj growing system. Even then they do not raise the DO above normal saturation levels. They instead go to huge lenghts to supply all the DO needs of all the baceria they purposely grow plus enough excess to keep the DO above 2 ppm.

These system are typically made up of several types of pellets. One type is comprised of calcium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. What it mainly removes is the carbon dioxide from ambient air. There are other pellets that remove other gasses such as hydrogen.
 
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pacog

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Without discussing your growing method a high CD discussion is moot.

For most mj grows hy would you want to waste time, energy and expense to super saturate your water with DO as the superaturation will only be constant with constant effort. It is simple to maintain high DO in a nutrient reservoir. The common problem is how to deliver the high DO water to all root surfaces. The plants roots unless at high temps do not really need high DO.

There is always the possibilty of too much O2 being present.

The type of systems you describe are commonly used with sewage treatment plants where DO demands are hugh. The DO must be supplied at levels much higher that used in any mj growing system. Even then they do not raise the DO above normal saturation levels. They instead go to huge lenghts to supply all the DO needs of all the baceria they purposely grow plus enough excess to keep the DO above 2 ppm.

These system are typically made up of several types of pellets. One type is comprised of calcium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. What it mainly removes is the carbon dioxide from ambient air. There are other pellets that remove other gasses such as hydrogen.
Sorry Fatman. Right Now I am Growing RCDWC(using converted Waterfarms looking at some MPB style right now as well) also Planning on HP aero set-up very soon( at least for clones). Love what the EZ cloner does and it's as basic as it gets.

The only reason I considered the Oxygen generator was because of the High pressure output and using it in place of say a High-Blow 100-150. You can pick up used High output OG units for about the same price as New Air Pump. HB200 is $800 not cheap for an Air Pump. Low output OG are getting cheaper all the time as well.

I suppose there could be To much Oxygen, but what Issues what it Cause? Some sort of Burn? Has there ever been testing done with levels this high?
 
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fatman

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Sorry Fatman. Right Now I am Growing RCDWC(using converted Waterfarms looking at some MPB style right now as well) also Planning on HP aero set-up very soon( at least for clones). Love what the EZ cloner does and it's as basic as it gets.

The only reason I considered the Oxygen generator was because of the High pressure output and using it in place of say a High-Blow 100-150. You can pick up used High output OG units for about the same price as New Air Pump. HB200 is $800 not cheap for an Air Pump. Low output OG are getting cheaper all the time as well.

I suppose there could be To much Oxygen, but what Issues what it Cause? Some sort of Burn? Has there ever been testing done with levels this high?
Look at some surplus regenerative blowers. The undercurrents sytem is the most heavily arearated RDWC system soald at this moment and it use a pond pump delivering about 1.5 cubic foot per minute and sells for about $150. Look at this Gast blower. It will sell on Ebay for between $100 and $150. It will put out 27 cubic feet per minute. It uses 140 watts versus the pond air pumps 5o watts, but it puts out 18 times as much air.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gast-Regenair-R1102-23-Air-Blower-Vacuum-Pump-Used-/120578673597?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item1c130c8bbd

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdCwabhBM3r8AB0pXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyYWk0M2hyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0g0NjVfNzQ-/SIG=12jvcj8t3/EXP=1276231578/**http://www.wainbee.com/prod_vacuum/Gast_RegenBlower_catalog.pdf
 
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My opinion..

In our size systems, not going to do jack. Listen, the best way to raise DO is to simply make millions of bubbles bubbling THRU the roots. Where the roots sit in the water they might get a reading of say 12 but the bubble has a rating of say 20 or higher when in contact with the root. If you have enough bubbles, its kinda like an aero aetup in that the roots get air and water..

Hope that made sence.?
 
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fatman

Guest
My opinion..

In our size systems, not going to do jack. Listen, the best way to raise DO is to simply make millions of bubbles bubbling THRU the roots. Where the roots sit in the water they might get a reading of say 12 but the bubble has a rating of say 20 or higher when in contact with the root. If you have enough bubbles, its kinda like an aero aetup in that the roots get air and water..:sign0023:

Hope that made sence.?
:rockLOST LOST Not going to do Lost. :surprised . Sure it is more than you need with most hobby systems but excess air is a lot better than dead roots, root rot and slow growth. Think or believe as you wish but please do not try to spread such unsupportable opinions in the forum as anything but your unsubstantiated opinions. If you can find a chart showing 20 ppm of DO in water reservoirs etc, please post a link or reference.

No one has mentioned a system size. The info I posted above obviously does not apply to a system of just a few reservoirs or a few buckets as it can supply enough air to keep probably 50 buckets as turbulent as would be needed to assure all roots have lots of water flowing over them from a reservoir where the DO is virtually the same every where. You, nor anyone else is going to get millions of bubbles to flow through root masses unless those root masses are kept in motion so that the roots are actually constantly almost in violent motions.

Bubbles take the path of least resistance so they flow around and between root masses and seldom enter root masses. I have no idea what your 12 or 20 or higher numbers mean. Even water at 7 degrees C (46 degrees F) the water is saturated with a DO of 12 ppm. You will not obtain a DO of even 15 ppm at zero degrees C. You would never obtain a reading of DO at or above 20 ppm simply buy blowing bubbles with an air pump into the reservoir water.

Obviously your knowledge of this topic is not adequate enough to even be entering the discussion. I have a shelf full of DO meters and I guarantee you I have been taking DO measurements in water bodies, highly aerated reservoirs etc and have never seem a reservoir at standard atmospheric pressure at any temp with a DO of 20 ppm.

I thought it safe to assume that a person willing to spend $800 on a oxygen generator likely plans more than a few hobby bucket or RDWC grows and he might like to know about air blowers.

LOST Try looking at the under currents systems. http://cch2o.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=39&zenid=l22t1bpjhd7g6fpns1i921ll94 They use a 1.7 cubic foot per minute pond air pump for all their systems. Even when used with just four buckets wwith a large airstone in each bucket/reservoir, the system does not supply adequate DO to any plant arrangement beyond 1 plant per bucket. I don't assume you are saying to place air stones at one per every 10 or 15 cm to supply turbulent flow through out the reservoir and to do so with a small air pump.:nerd
 
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fatman

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Ahhh, your right.. What do I know :) Obviously about this topic not enough.


Hay, is air a DO of 20 ppm or higher?
Moot question. First air contains no DO. It just does not really matter that room air contains approx 2000 ppm of gaseous oxygen. mj roots receive their oxygen only in the form of dissolved oxygen (DO) not gaseous Oxygen. IE mj plant roots take up water containing DO in order to obtain their oxygen needs.

Water will only hold a very small amount of DO regardless of how much you flow through the water in the way of bubbles and regardless of the concentration of the gaseous oxygen in the air. The importance of running a lot of air through DWC reservoirs is mainly to assure the water is turbulent so that the roots are kept separated my constant movement. Very, very little oxygen from the air bubbles actually dissolves into the water.

Reservoir water can easily be kept fully saturated in recirculating reservoirs for Small tube Aero, NFT and Ebb and Flow systems using no air pump at all. That does not mean the water will contact all roots adequately though.
 

Gro

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so fatman,what is the adequate level of knowledge required to enter into a discussion here.i thought the reason for this site was to provide a forum for the exchange of ideas and information between gentlemen possessing various levels of knowledge and expertise.:character0050:
 
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BTW if you see my post I say if you get a do reading of say x (For example 7 in this case...), then the air would have a much higher DO reading (Duh, is is 20% oxygen, get it? anyway i said 20 which is probablly low, but the idea was it was an example...)

With very high flow rates {Water} and high volumes of bubbles (To a point, after a while its so vigerous that the roots don't grow because they get thrashed around a bit), you can acheive a higher DO rate that the water could ever provide on its own, but go ahead tell me how wrong I am again, its amusing. :)
 
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Moot question. First air contains no DO. It just does not really matter that room air contains approx 2000 ppm of gaseous oxygen. mj roots receive their oxygen only in the form of dissolved oxygen (DO) not gaseous Oxygen. IE mj plant roots take up water containing DO in order to obtain their oxygen needs.

Water will only hold a very small amount of DO regardless of how much you flow through the water in the way of bubbles and regardless of the concentration of the gaseous oxygen in the air. The importance of running a lot of air through DWC reservoirs is mainly to assure the water is turbulent so that the roots are kept separated my constant movement. Very, very little oxygen from the air bubbles actually dissolves into the water.

Reservoir water can easily be kept fully saturated in recirculating reservoirs for Small tube Aero, NFT and Ebb and Flow systems using no air pump at all. That does not mean the water will contact all roots adequately though.
Here is where you are wrong.. The bubbles (air, 2000 ppm of oxygen by your call) and the roots are in a DO (I believe this is a real reading) of somewhere between 10-12 depending on temp. When the bubbles come into contact with the roots that is giving them a supercharge of O2. You say that roots only take in DO thru water and not thru the air but thats just wrong with all of my experience. :drink
 
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P.S. if your looking for a cheap pump with 30 outlets try the pondmaster ap-100. quiet and cheap at 140 shipped off ebay :)
 
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fatman

Guest
BTW if you see my post I say if you get a do reading of say x (For example 7 in this case...), then the air would have a much higher DO reading (Duh, is is 20% oxygen, get it? anyway i said 20 which is probablly low, but the idea was it was an example...) Your grasping at straws to cover your blunders Lost. DUH gaseous oyygen does not have DO Dude. DUH got that yet? Dissolved oxygen versus gaseous oxygen. Why do you find that confusing.

Obviously you are either confused or know little about this subject. Room air contains 20% oxygen so yes it is 2000 ppm. However like I said that oxygen will not dissolve into the water higher than normal saturation lenels at standard atmospheric pressure. It will simply remain in a gaseous state until it reaches the waters surface and the bubble bursts. IE if the water is already saturated to the ppm standard for the water temp no oxygen will dissolve into the water if the water is at normal atmosphheric pressure. It is simple physics Dude.

Now if your reservoir was a sealed tank at atmospheric pressure partially filled with water, and air containing oxygen is pumped into the tank raising the pressure considerably then the DO will rise. Ie if the pressure is at 760 Torr with a water temp of 20 C the DO will be 9.08 ppm. If you raise the pressure to 780 Torr the DO will rise to 9.32 ppm. However the DO above normal saturation level will turn to gasouos oxygen as soon as the water is again subjected to atmospheric pressures. Ie it will become bubbles and flat to the surafce and return to the room air.

With very high flow rates {Water} (where was that discussed DUDE) Turbulent Dude, Turbulent. and high volumes of bubbles (To a point, after a while its so vigerous that the roots don't grow because they get thrashed around a bit), The plants roots do not care if they are trashed about as long as they are not being ripped into pieces. Plant roots grow large only when they must. Under good turbulent water conditions the plant growth rate will increase regardless of the plants roots not growing larger.you can acheive a higher DO rate that the water could ever provide on its own, but go ahead tell me how wrong I am again, its amusing. :)
Lost, turbulence can be provided by pumps that add no bubbles and the water can still easily maintain DO at saturation levels. Air pumps are simply used as they are cheap and little knowledge is needed to use them. Few RDWC/DWC systems are using large enough pumps and airstones for adequate water turbulence.

I am confused why do you find it amusing to be so easily proven wrong so often and to such a high degree.

Lost, have you even bothered to look at the under current system link or its videos. That is currently the #1 RDWC system being sold and it is not all that great. I can safely say though it is likely better than the vast majority of hobby systems or any RDWC system you have likely put together.

Lost, maybe you should buy or borrow a DO meter and really learn something through data collection if you can not learn through reading.

Try learning something by reading this thread:
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f9/myth-free-water-nutrient-temperature-level-information-21077/

As far as an oxygen generator. It is only beneficial if you are using more DO in your reservoir than can be replaced by standard methods. IE it will add DO quickly to your water if it is not saturated. In a RDWC or any other recirculating reservoir with heavy air injection or strong circulation the water should always be saturated with DO without causing a need for an oxygem generator.
 
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fatman

Guest
Here is where you are wrong.. The bubbles (air, 2000 ppm of oxygen by your call) and the roots are in a DO (I believe this is a real reading) of somewhere between 10-12 depending on temp. When the bubbles come into contact with the roots that is giving them a supercharge of O2. You say that roots only take in DO thru water and not thru the air but thats just wrong with all of my experience. :drink
You are obviously wrong again Lost. We can look at what you just said however. A DO of 10 ppm in a reservoir means: Water at 15 Degrees C or 59 F. At 12 ppm it means 7 degrees C or 44.6 F. Personally I do not know of anyone growing with reservoir water temps of 15 degrees C yet alone 7 Degrees C. When the bubbles come into contact with the roots they do nothing. They are bubbles (gaseous air) not DO.

What "experience" do you have that shows oxygen is taken up in a gaseous form by mj roots Lost? Please show some reference site that verifies this miracle can happen. Do you know anything about surface tension or dissolution. Oxygen molecules exist in the gaseous state. When oxygen dissolves in water, the oxygen molecules become surrounded by water molecules. IE for the roots to take up DO they must also take up the water surrounding the DO. mj plants can pass O2 and CO2 and water through its stomata. It takes up dissolved oxygen, dissolved nutrients through its roots. It can also discharge water with dissolved compounds and ions through its roots.
 
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fatman

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P.S. if your looking for a cheap pump with 30 outlets try the pondmaster ap-100. quiet and cheap at 140 shipped off ebay :)
Lets see: A hobby grade 9150 cubic inches per minute air pump. That means [9150/(12*12*12)= 5.3 cubic feet per minute.

Or their is the industrrial gradeblower for $150 that produces 27 cubic feet per minute.

Sounnds like a real rough choice. A hobby grade pump or a quality industrial blower.
 
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pacog

Guest
Look at some surplus regenerative blowers. The undercurrents sytem is the most heavily arearated RDWC system soald at this moment and it use a pond pump delivering about 1.5 cubic foot per minute and sells for about $150. Look at this Gast blower. It will sell on Ebay for between $100 and $150. It will put out 27 cubic feet per minute. It uses 140 watts versus the pond air pumps 5o watts, but it puts out 18 times as much air.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gast-Regenair-R1102-23-Air-Blower-Vacuum-Pump-Used-/120578673597?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item1c130c8bbd

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdCwabhBM3r8AB0pXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyYWk0M2hyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0g0NjVfNzQ-/SIG=12jvcj8t3/EXP=1276231578/**http://www.wainbee.com/prod_vacuum/Gast_RegenBlower_catalog.pdf
Fatman. Thanks man. This is the sort of stuff I am looking for. Sounds Like a Much better alternative to the Air Pumps everyone is using.

How would you go about Using one of these. Would you you use Aerators in Each Individual bucket/tub as well as the Res? If so what Size any specific brand? I was looking at some 9" Round Membrane Pond Diffusers?
 
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pacog

Guest
Fatman... I must say you seem very Literate about many things I have read from you so far. On this site as well as others.

May I ask your Education/training backround???
 
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