watering from top or bottom? advice needed please...

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Kyle mccall

Kyle mccall

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This is not a debate because I said I "could be wrong" about bottom feeding working as good as top in big pots, so there is no argument there. She thinks its easier to bottom feed and I think its easier to top feed and there is no "better" way, its simply opinion because both watering methods will evenly saturate the soil if done properly.

In all honesty i could'nt care i just thought seamaidens point really made a point esp when it came to the soil sticking to the sides comment anyway i had'nt actually really took intrest in anyones post apart from seamaidens which intrested me as i can relate to it.
 
juniorgrower

juniorgrower

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I guess I get the best of both worlds, because I pour my water in the top fast and it seems to drain right down through the smart pot and collects in the saucer. An hour later the water has been sucked back up into the soil. Not sure if this is right or wrong but it seems to work.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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In all honesty i could'nt care i just thought seamaidens point really made a point esp when it came to the soil sticking to the sides comment anyway i had'nt actually really took intrest in anyones post apart from seamaidens which intrested me as i can relate to it.


Do you find this interesting...

Leaving water in saucers is very inconvinient for most growers. The reason is that most people use nutrients that are not suppose to be exposed to direct light, so leaving a nutrient solution out like that will cause problems.

P.S. She never said anything about soil sticking to the sides, actually she said the soil pulls away from the side. This happens when the soil dries out, but soil dries from top to bottom, so if the top inch is dry then everything below it is still moist. Which means if the top layer of soil is pulled away from the pot it won't hurt your plants because the rest of the soil is still moist which means the roots are still able to absorb water and nutrients.

I don't know about anybody else, but I rather have my soil slightly dry out instead of always being wet which could lead to root rot, mold or mildew.
 
Kyle mccall

Kyle mccall

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Do you find this interesting...

Leaving water in saucers is very inconvinient for most growers.(so lex says haha ) The reason is that most people use nutrients that are not suppose to be exposed to direct light, so leaving a nutrient solution out like that will cause problems.

P.S. She never said anything about soil sticking to the sides, actually she said the soil pulls away from the side. This happens when the soil dries out, but soil dries from top to bottom, so if the top inch is dry then everything below it is still moist. Which means if the top layer of soil is pulled away from the pot it won't hurt your plants because the rest of the soil is still moist which means the roots are still able to absorb water and nutrients.

I don't know about anybody else, but I rather have my soil slightly dry out instead of always being wet which could lead to root rot, mold or mildew.

yo whats with the mard arse lad keep putting me back in your post's I'M NOT INTERESTED !!
and yeah that was the comment i was refering to forgive me for being a stoner haha now if ya that bothered i'd stop coming on here it is a place of opinion after all i could sit here and argue your points but its boring.
 
half baked

half baked

807
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I guess I get the best of both worlds, because I pour my water in the top fast and it seems to drain right down through the smart pot and collects in the saucer. An hour later the water has been sucked back up into the soil. Not sure if this is right or wrong but it seems to work.
me and you have pretty much the same technique, if ya know how much the plant/pot can take per watering it makes the whole lot easier, i think ive got it down pretty well fell for the soil i use, my soil doesnt hold more than 25percent its volume in water
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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yo whats with the mard arse lad keep putting me back in your post's I'M NOT INTERESTED !!
and yeah that was the comment i was refering to forgive me for being a stoner haha now if ya that bothered i'd stop coming on here it is a place of opinion after all i could sit here and argue your points but its boring.



Think about it bro, your last 2 posts were directed towards me, so don't get angry because I responded.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Just try it before you knock it. I've done it both ways, and I don't have the time (and my back can't take standing there bent over plants) to spend that much time slowly pouring water into pots. I just don't.

I realize that we may be talking apples and oranges here, so I'm being specific to potted plants, but including those that can't be moved. However, I have plenty of containerized plants that I can't bottom feed or water, for example, everything that's in planters that are hanging from the deck railing. Those must be watered from the top. And those are the planters that I have to fuck with daily, not the ones with the containers holding water. The ones that need watering from the top are the most difficult for me to deal with, period. The ones that I just check the saucer/water catchment on I can see immediately need water, and I can give the water in a standing position.

Either way, we agree that it's much a matter of opinion, but I still think you should try it before you declare it's not as easy. :)
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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bottom feeding is the most effective at watering your plants due to a bunch of laws and soil reactions. The key is not to let them sit in standing water.

For those who wish to learn more

Watering your plants properly


It's not as easy as adding water
A lot of people take watering their plants for granted, and see it as one of the easiest parts of plant maintenance. In fact, providing strategic water to your plants is a very serious matter.
Plants are largely made up of water — 50-99 percent depending on the type of plant and tissues. Healthy plant cells are full of water which makes it possible for them to have stiff, upright stems. The canopy is expanded to receive and transform the maximum amount of light. While a plant is converting this light energy into carbohydrates, water is an essential part of the manufacturing process. Water also transports nutrients from the medium into the roots as it transpires from the leaves and makes nutrient distribution throughout the plant possible. The amount of water available in your medium will determine the success of your plant cultivation. Properly irrigating your plants can lead to strong increases in root development, microbial activity and overall yield.

Over watering is more common than under watering
Although most people are scared of under-watering plants, most water related problems result from over-watering. The first thing that over-watering will do is displace air from soil pores in the medium. Even if your water is high in dissolved oxygen, microbes in your medium will quickly deplete this small reserve of oxygen. This can result in an anaerobic condition and subsequent problems, such as root rot resulted from anaerobic fermentation. Oxygen diffusion through water-filled pores is 10,000 times slower than through air-filled pores in the soil.



So, why is oxygen so important to your plant roots?
Similar to shoots, plant roots require oxygen for respiration. Although plant species vary in their tolerance of oxygen depletion, in most cases roots growing in an environment that lacks oxygen will fail to take up water and nutrients properly. This is why plants growing in wet soils can exhibit symptoms of nutrient deficiency and even wilt. The situation is usually worse when it is hot or the soil has high organic matter content.
One way of increasing oxygen in a soil or soilless media is to add a powdered calcium peroxide product at the time of transplant. The powder will breakdown over a period of six to seven weeks providing oxygen and calcium. Be careful to monitor pH, as calcium peroxide will increase the pH. Unlike hydrogen peroxide, calcium peroxide will not harm beneficial microbes. Another way of increasing oxygen in a soilless media is to increase the portion of coarse porous particles, such as perlite, to 30% of the total volume. It is also important to ensure that you don’t allow too much standing water to collect at the bottom of the container.

Letting your medium become too dry is a sure way to end up with a sick plant
Although most gardeners tend to over water, it is equally dangerous to go too far in the other direction and induce drought stress, which is caused by a shortage of water in the plant tissue. Long before you see your plants wilting, drought stress may be occurring. Plants defend themselves from lack of water by closing their stomata, accomplished by a feedback system: when turgor pressure in the plant drops, the guard cells become flaccid and the stomata close. Although this holds valuable moisture within the plant, it also slows the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. This reduction in gas exchange slows photosynthesis and plant growth is inhibited. You also risk overheating your plants if it is hot. Drought stress will show up as yellowing and/or dropping of older leaves.
There are two stages of wilting, temporary wilting and permanent wilting. These stages refer to the amount of available moisture in the soil. If you catch wilting early enough you may be able to save your plants: at a temporary wilting point, your plants will recover if watered. Chronic water stress will result in a plant with small, poorly coloured leaves and leaf wilting, leaving plants permanently droopy. If a plant wilts when it is blooming, the yield will be impaired dramatically. These plants will never perform to their potential… but they may serve as a valuable lesson to novice gardeners! If you get to the permanent wilting point, the point where the soil moisture content is too low for plants to take up water, your plants will not recover.

part 2 below
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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Water movement: Several Forms of Attraction

When you think of how water moves through your medium, you may automatically think of the downward movement due to the gravity. Gravitational pull is very important, but there are other forces at play: matric and osmotic potential. When you apply water to the point of saturation all soil pores are filled with water. At this point, the dominant force is gravitational. In the coarse pores water is held loosely and can move easily in the direction of gravity. Once gravity has removed excess water from your medium, you have reached a point called "field capacity". At this point the other forces come into play.
Matric potential is a result of the attraction between water and soil particles. Capillary action is a good example of the presence of matrix potential. If you take a thin straw and put it in a glass of water, the water in the straw will be slightly higher than the surrounding water in the glass (the thinner the straw, the higher the water). Pores in soil or soilless mediums are much finer than the diameter of even the finest straw so these pores have a gravity defying ability to move water (up to several meters if the medium is compacted). In fact, some hydroponic systems use a wick system that supplies water by taking advantage of capillary action.
Osmotic potential relates to the attractive force between salts and water, and the fact that water will move from a less concentrated solution to a more concentrated one. This force also has the ability to move water against gravity through soil. It is also an important concept in terms of the way plants take up water; when the concentration of solutes within the plant is greater than that of the surrounding soil water, water will flow into the plant. However, when salt concentration reaches a certain level plants will not be able to draw water from the salty media.
The topic of soil water flow is quite complex. Many resources are available online for those interested in a more detailed scientific explanation.
Plants grow well when the soil moisture content is around 70% of the field capacity. At this point, the force that holds water is equivalent to a force of pulling 100-150cm water column. The macro-pores are filled with air and most micro-pores are filled with water. Roots can take water easily form the medium and respire normally.
Some water in your medium will not be available to your plants. Once your soil begins to dry out, it becomes more difficult for your plants to draw water from the media because of the incredible power of adhesion, the ability of water to "stick" to your media. The fine pores of medium also hold water strongly and the water is less available to plants. If the force that holds water reaches around15 bars (the force equivalent to pulling 150m water column), the plants will not be able to take water from the medium and will probably have reached the permanent wilting point. At this point there is still water in the medium but it is not available to plants. Even air-dried soil contains water; this water is referred to as hygroscopic water because the attraction to the particle is so strong that the only way to remove it from the soil is by drying it in an oven above 100°C.
To check the moisture status you can take a handful of medium from the container. If you can feel moisture, but no water can be squeeze out, you have not over-watered the plants. If the medium is dry and you do not feel moisture, you need to water. A great way to water your plants is to apply water from the bottom of container (by setting the pot in water, or finding a similar solution) so that water can be drawn up by the medium by capillary action. In this way the macro-pores will not be blocked and air exchange between the medium and the ambient air can take place easily.

Check your water before watering
When watering your media, it is important to check the water temperature to ensure that there isn’t a large difference between the temperature of the water and the medium (aim for ±5°C). Otherwise thermal shock will make plants unhappy. For example, sudden drop in temperature can induce iron deficiency in species sensitive to iron deficiency. For indoor plants, use water that has been stored at room temperature for at least one day. For outdoor plants, water plants in evening or in the morning. Do not water plants with cold tap water in the middle of a hot summer day.
Secondly, check water quality if the water is not rain water or fresh surface water from a known catchment. The electrical conductivity (EC, an indicator of soluble salt content) should not be over 1.5mS/cm. Ground water tends to have high EC. If EC is high (say over 0.5mS/cm), it is advisable to check the pH of the water. For most plant species it is acceptable if the pH is below 7.2. If water pH is high (say up to 8.3), this indicates that a considerable amount of bicarbonates are present. Iron deficiency-sensitive plants are likely to show iron deficiency symptom if water with a high pH is used for a long period of time. To resolve issues with high pH, you can neutralize the water with an acid (such as nitric or sulfuric acid). Be careful to select the right products to use. Some products designed to reduce pH are composed of phosphoric acid; if using this product, you have to adjust feeding program to account for the additional phosphorous. Vinegar can also be used. However high amount should be avoided since high level of organic acids can be toxic to roots (low level usually stimulates root growth, but this is beyond the scope of this article).
Plant roots can require as much as three times more oxygen (by volume) than water, so understanding water movement and the forces that drive water movement are keys to the urban gardener's success. That said, the best way to increase long-term yields from your garden is to experiment with your unique system. Experiment with different percentage of mix ingredients to supercharge your medium and provide the best possible environment for root growth. So the next time you tip your watering can or hear your pumps come on, make sure you are thinking about how important water management can be to your indoor (or outdoor) jungle.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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^^^^Very interesting article, but it didn't say anything about bottom feeding being more effective then top feeding.

The thing is, they are both very effective if done properly, but when using nutrient solutions your not suppose to let them sit in direct light. IMO thats a big downside to bottom feed, unless your using plain H2O all the time and its not practical for alot of cannabis growers to use plain H2O throughout an entire grow.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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263
Just try it before you knock it. I've done it both ways, and I don't have the time (and my back can't take standing there bent over plants) to spend that much time slowly pouring water into pots. I just don't.

I realize that we may be talking apples and oranges here, so I'm being specific to potted plants, but including those that can't be moved. However, I have plenty of containerized plants that I can't bottom feed or water, for example, everything that's in planters that are hanging from the deck railing. Those must be watered from the top. And those are the planters that I have to fuck with daily, not the ones with the containers holding water. The ones that need watering from the top are the most difficult for me to deal with, period. The ones that I just check the saucer/water catchment on I can see immediately need water, and I can give the water in a standing position.

Either way, we agree that it's much a matter of opinion, but I still think you should try it before you declare it's not as easy. :)


I definately will because I respect alot of what you say ;)
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Woodsman, eh? A bunch of laws, you've got me chuckling. I couldn't tell ya what they are.
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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Top watering is a crap shoot, bottom is not. The issue with top watering is the old path of least resistance, for an excellent example just fill a translucent beer cup with dirt and put a couple holes in the bottom for drainage. Water it and watch what happens, let it dry than water again and you will see what I mean. It is hard to water evenly when using any type of soil or soil like mediums. You need far more water to top water a plant than you do if you bottom water so not only is it more effective it is more cost effective also. As for leaving your nutrients exposed to light your right but they are not talking about 3 or 4 hours the degradation happens when exposed to prolonged light (days) and mostly under the sun. As I said the key is not to let them sit in water I use a shop vac but also just tip the saucer over after a couple hours.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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638
I don't know about nutrients degrading in the sun being an automatic thing. Last week my husband and I took ourselves a drive down to Fort Irwin from up here. The route to 99 was polluted with large truck traffic, so we took a shortcut. That shortcut was just a two-lane road that went through nothing but agricultural land (we pop out right in Ripon, from Jack Tone Rd). Well, all along that road I saw big old tanks filled with blue stuff--fertilizers. Just sitting right out there in the full sun.

If the sun degrades the nutrients that quickly, would all these farmers be wasting their hard-earned cash letting that happen while they wait on their crops?
 
9

905krak

1
1
I came on here to tell you 2 that you both sound like old ladies argueing about cappilary and watering . If it works for 1 person then your way doesn't matter cause there way works so why argue u both just look stupid . Growing depends on love and care... Fire in Fire out end of story u can have the roots soaked all day and not get root rot if ur experienced and spend the time knowing ur methods then only neglect can be the enemy . And u can have dried out soil and still be fine to aslong as ur method has result3d in buds that impress people then ur way is fine. All this nonesense of argueing confuses people that really need advice and thats not what us pot heads do to one another take that crap to the crack smoking sites
 
stiffneck

stiffneck

1,463
263
Well... I know the thread is old but thought I would say.... I have two trays of clones in red cups. One I have been bottom feeding. The other top feeding. For whatever reason the bottom fed ones are healthier, bigger and greener. Same fringing clones. I can only assume my top feed watering is not on point. Maybe I have air pockets in the top fed. Again who really cares? Haha. Absolutely nobody. :)
 
S

sativablast

122
18
i been top feeding and bottom in coco at the same time.
Seems to be working lovely.
 
BobaJob

BobaJob

96
18
I'm no expert but what I find is that if you're using root pouches like me, and you leave the soil to get quite dry between waterings the water runs out the side etc and doesn't get the soil evenly wet. I find that (on the advice of another person here) water little by little from the top, allowing the time for water to saok in everywhere, and I keep doing it until I seen run off in my drip trays, then I leave the water in the trays for a good hour for the soil to wik it up... anything left after that I remove.
 
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