Where Is Canna Hiding Their Calcium?(the Truth Behind Canna Nutrients)

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FarmerX

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@costa -

Is the paling at the top or bottom of plant?

A lot of people agree with and have success using he technique pimples mentioned above:

.....if you cant get a report on EXACTLY whats in the water...just make it 0.2 to 0.4 EC whether you have to take some EC out with a reverse osmosis filter (too hard) and add back until you hit 0.2 - 0.4 target or add up (too soft) with a simple calmag product. Just about any of them will do. Then add your base nutrient and pH adjust according to substrate medium and cultivar. You should be good to go.

If you are using tap water at 800+ PPM I would strongly suggest filtration or at least a proper analysis. (They cost $50-$150USD, but are just as worthwhile as a TDS meter).

Canna buffers their Coco Coir with MgNO3, CaNo3, and possibly one other chemical. One of the posts above expressed the high amount of Potassium and Sulphur that is naturally occurring in Coco Coir, Canna's nutrients accommodates this through decreased Potassium and Sulfur. Canna maintains a near perfect 3 : 1 Mg: Ca ratio, and I dont suggest anyone deviate from this too much, as the entire regimen is dependent on the interactions and balance between ions/anions in our nutrient solution, the ions/anions in our growing medium, and most importantly what the end element availability is. Essentially, Canna is relying heavily on the Coco medium to provide the Potassium the plants need, and if you introduce too much of Ca and Mg at an unknown rate, that Potassium and possibly other elements may not be available to the plants.

I personally used Cal-Mag Plus by Botanicare when i was supplementing Canna, it also has a 3:1 Ratio. There is a strong argument that an increase of the base nutrients is just as/more effective than trying to supplement CaMg.

1ML/Gal Canna = 12Ca-4Mg
1ML/Gal CalMag = 9Ca-3Mg

Until you've ran canna once or twice, I'd suggest just increasing the base nutrients, it'll give you additional micronutrients that aren't present in the CalMag products.

When increasing feed rate:
Increase by 0.5-1ML/Gal at a time, feed at new rate for 3 days, look for positive progress on 4th day. If they have not recovered or the deficiency is still progressing, increase feed rate again by 0.5-1ML/Gal, feed at new rate for 3 days, look for positive progress on 4th day. Etc.

I'm getting ready to run a Canna remake alongside the Canna Line in vegetative space, I'll let you know if unnoticed any Mg deficiency. I honestly feel like Canna nutrients "light-feed/soft-water" schedule doesn't need to be deviated from during vegetative, but I'll let you know how my experiment works out.

Cheers,

X
 
P

Pimples

772
143
@costa -

Is the paling at the top or bottom of plant?

A lot of people agree with and have success using he technique pimples mentioned above:



If you are using tap water at 800+ PPM I would strongly suggest filtration or at least a proper analysis. (They cost $50-$150USD, but are just as worthwhile as a TDS meter).

Canna buffers their Coco Coir with MgNO3, CaNo3, and possibly one other chemical. One of the posts above expressed the high amount of Potassium and Sulphur that is naturally occurring in Coco Coir, Canna's nutrients accommodates this through decreased Potassium and Sulfur. Canna maintains a near perfect 3 : 1 Mg: Ca ratio, and I dont suggest anyone deviate from this too much, as the entire regimen is dependent on the interactions and balance between ions/anions in our nutrient solution, the ions/anions in our growing medium, and most importantly what the end element availability is. Essentially, Canna is relying heavily on the Coco medium to provide the Potassium the plants need, and if you introduce too much of Ca and Mg at an unknown rate, that Potassium and possibly other elements may not be available to the plants.

I personally used Cal-Mag Plus by Botanicare when i was supplementing Canna, it also has a 3:1 Ratio. There is a strong argument that an increase of the base nutrients is just as/more effective than trying to supplement CaMg.

1ML/Gal Canna = 12Ca-4Mg
1ML/Gal CalMag = 9Ca-3Mg

Until you've ran canna once or twice, I'd suggest just increasing the base nutrients, it'll give you additional micronutrients that aren't present in the CalMag products.

When increasing feed rate:
Increase by 0.5-1ML/Gal at a time, feed at new rate for 3 days, look for positive progress on 4th day. If they have not recovered or the deficiency is still progressing, increase feed rate again by 0.5-1ML/Gal, feed at new rate for 3 days, look for positive progress on 4th day. Etc.

I'm getting ready to run a Canna remake alongside the Canna Line in vegetative space, I'll let you know if unnoticed any Mg deficiency. I honestly feel like Canna nutrients "light-feed/soft-water" schedule doesn't need to be deviated from during vegetative, but I'll let you know how my experiment works out.

Cheers,

X
Good post. And great advice
 
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MikeGreat

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Fantastic post... I am very interested in your results as I also run the Canna line with 4 ml per gallon of CalMag to compensate for deficiencies....
 
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costa

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Hi again all . I did a feed this morning with no Epsom or Cal.,,,, @ 10 L of RO @ 30 ppm ( 0.5 scale ) , I gave them 20 ml boost , 5 ml Rhiz and 25 ml of Zym . Then used A+B to bring it up to 600 ppm , approx . 26 ml and a bit lol . I'll be keeping a very close eye on them in the next few days . I hope the A+B has got enough cal/mag. in it to handle the 30 ppm water . Fingers crossed
 
M

MikeGreat

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I don’t want to be contradictory or argumentative as I am just giving my two cents...

I know of a few commercial grower growing big plants that feed the Canna line at 1500 – 2000 ppm with very good results and all of the use CalMag to compensate for deficiencies…

I read here concerns with going over 600 ppm and I am not sure why...
 
F

FarmerX

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I don’t want to be contradictory or argumentative as I am just giving my two cents...

I know of a few commercial grower growing big plants that feed the Canna line at 1500 – 2000 ppm with very good results and all of the use CalMag to compensate for deficiencies…

I read here concerns with going over 600 ppm and I am not sure why...

Thanks for joining the conversation @MikeGreat!

No need to worry about arguments or contradictions here, I shared this information for feedback and conversation. So I appreciate the input. :)

The fear of exceeding 600 PPM is specific to my personal grow. If I exceed 500PPM in my environment the burnt tips show up. There is nothing wrong with running 1600-2000 PPM if your environment and plants allow it, and you don't mind feeding at that strength.

I imagine these commercial cultivators mentioned to have a Higher VPD, different watering rates, container sizes, and running CO2 inoculation. All of which will drastically affect feeding rates. For example, I might feed 2-4 times a day in smaller containers running near 400 PPM of nutrient strength and CO2, and warmer temperatures(82-90). In theory a farmer feeding 1600-2000 PPM once a day is delivering the same amount of nutrient that I would in more, lighter feedings. There are a lot of different ways to cultivate, I'm certainly not here to determine or direct anyone else's techniques, simply sharing my own.

I personally enjoy the lighter, more frequent feedings for a few reasons:
1. A less concentrated solution affects the osmotic pressure in the rhizosphere, allowing for increased ease of uptake without salt build up in medium. Plants use a lot more water than they do nutrients, especially in warmer temperatures.
2. If you make a mistake in the reservoir, you aren't saturating the medium and allowing it to sit for 24+ hours(risking ph/Temperature/EC toxicity). In a system where the medium is flushed with a fresh solution at least twice a day, it dilutes any previous mistakes relatively quickly.
3. Oxygen! The more often you feed plants, the more often they receive fresh oxygen.
4. Cost and knowledge of inputs: Often times feeding heavy(especially for the inexperienced) can be like putting on a sweater when all you really needed was a shirt. Sure, we needed to warm up, but now we might get too warm and our new sweater is getting dirty too. If we really needed nitrogen, and simply increased all of the inputs, I would be wasting everything that isn't the nitrogen. When I'm feeding at 400PPM, its like I'm doing jumping jacks while wearing a speed-o.

I'm not as familiar with the benefits of feeding at a larger strwngth other than the ease of application and less dependency on an automatic watering system to fire multiple times a day. If anyone would like to contribute a list of pros for an alternate style of watering, please share it!

IMO: If I take a vegetative plant being cultivated under 1000W lights for 18-24 hours, and then place it under 1000W light for 12 hours a day; why would the rate of feed increase while the amount of photosynthesis allowed to occur has decreased? I feed up to 800 in my vegetative area, and come down to 400-500 in flower. In my previous garden, on hotter days(95+) I was feeding .6 EC(under 300 PPM) in flower and obtained the best yields and flavors I had ever achieved.

I believe @costa is still in vegetative phase, where Canna doesn't expect the cultivator to exceed 1-1.2 EC(500-600PPM).I also recommended he/she follow the schedule until they are comfortable with the product line.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the cal-mag issue right now. I had mentioned previously that in the past I did supplement cal-mag, but in retrospect I don't know if it was necessary, especially now that the water analysis has proved that canna doesn't have low calcium. I'll be posting more about this once I've complete some trials with and without.

Everyone should feed their plants a healthy amount relative to their garden and enironmemt. Only the gardener knows what their space requires!

Thanks again for the post and contribution @MikeGreat!

X
 
P

Pimples

772
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Hey guys!

Another update on my conversation with Canna!

"Hello,

Thanks for all the questions and I would love to wax philosophic with you on the ins and outs of Phosphate feeding and ratios and such, unfortunately I do not have that kind of time so let me answer your direct questions. To begin, remember we are referencing coco an organic medium composed of most of the elements found in the sea, as that is where it lives and how it can fool the osmotic gradient to allow its use of sea water as a water source, and what it brings to the table as it ages has to be allowed for.
1. The koko peat fraction accumulates Phosphate, does not saturate but stays with the particles through various physical forces. Coco degrades faster than peat and as it does it leaves little charges on the remaining particle which attract strongly divalent elements like Calcium. These are mistakenly but kind of correctly referred to as the CEC of coco. These divalent ions never come off once attached, but they show up in the Ca: P : K: everything else ratios. When the next ion releases, it takes the Ca ion with it and another bare set of charges appear. Initially there are lots and lots of charges until the product is buffered, Canna Coco that is, and then the ratio of Ca, Mg, and other ions are much higher than what is needed, and all affect the ratio you refer to.
2. We recommend you use Nitric during Vegetative growth not Phosphoric. Using it during flowering will add some more, not so much but yes it does and you can compensate for it by decreasing PK usage which you will have to check by trial and error. Do not mistake Phosphate need with ratio numbers, especially not in ppm. Adding 10 – 20 ppm is not a lot compared to a system that will use considerably more. Ratios are what the plants need and what keeps the ions available in the medium at a single point in time, not across 1-3 days between watering. You certainly would want a higher Ca to P ratio during vegetative growth. Again, during the approximate 4 weeks of P accumulation the ratio, including what is added as a buffer initially, is quite high enough. You will not get enough Phosphate for function by using Phosphoric acid only. We highly suggest you refrain from using any Sulphur as coco has an abundance, especially one that is already entering into an environment where K ions are released in super abundance (which leaves the charged spots I mentioned before) and it is one of the elements we have to allow for in engineering the package. Again, it depends on what you are growing but a plant grown for the flowers and fruits, in general, require added P during that stage. We do not take the grower out of the equation and the grower must work with their own understanding of the system and adjust as they feel warrantied.
3. Depends entirely on what you are growing as to the needed or preferred Ca : P ratio.
4. No we do not make such claims that are based heavier on cultivation conditions and genetics. We do say that the proper timing of the higher P rate is required along a Phosphate utilization curve existing in plants. By keeping the Phosphate out of the solution until the timing on that curve reaches a level required beyond what the base nutrient provides, at which time additional is given for a space of 7-10 days only, which occurs at the moment the cells themselves are expanding in the fruiting structures, which effectively increases harvested yields.
5. Phosphate is critical in most energy utilizing processes as well as serving component need, which is why the higher use comes during flowering, when the plant is using more energy, burning Carbs, to make more of the Phosphate based energy components, then flowering uses more from setting up to also provide needed energy components and P containing compounds for a seed should one develop.
6. The medium is handled during initial buffering beyond the immediate need and replacing those ions washed out through attrition is the only replacement needed, along a well-studied decomposition curve based on our complete knowledge of the product and its history. If you apply water only to the coco, you will wash out these reserve ions which will upset the balance and you will see what you keep hinting at with our ratio issue, even though this system has worked flawlessly since the mid 1980’s.
7. I do not understand why it would need to compensate for these ions or whatever. Phosphate is not high. Remember, it is already in the medium in abundance, if you use our coco. If not than you are probably correct and it will take several weeks of continuous applications of the correct fertilizer to get it correct. I hope this helps some. This is about all I can say on the subject.

Cheers
XXXXX X. (Edited for privacy)

-------------------------------------------------------- CANNA Research North America It is not possible to reply to this email directly, please use the contact form on the website if you have more questions."


Alright...

I did a lot of research and reading between my original post and now. One of the things that jumped out to me was the "phosphorous utilization curve." Here's a link to an interesting article which discusses phosphorous and application timing relative to crops life cycle:
View attachment 648175
(Source: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01928506)

That's something to think about! Perhaps similar research lead Canna to believe that a heavy spike in phosphorous(and possibly other elements-through synergism and antagonism) during a specific time in the plants life created a similar performance to one that was constantly fed the same element.

I still don't understand why we would need such a high phosphorous value in the nutrients, unless it has to do with increasing magnesium uptake in a solution that some argue is lacking magnesium:
View attachment 648181

I'm beginning to feel like I'll never know why Canna boosts phosphorous so much when most crops require 1/2 to 1/4 of the PPM being applied to in many popular cannabis nutrient lines.

----------------------

I am not the first to try and understand Canna's nutrients, if you are finding this thread 4-5 years from now(as I did the following), you should also read these threads by some of our favorite people.

Lucas discusses the Canna formulas and cation exchange capacity: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119

Carl Sagan & Canna:
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...-nutes-to-use-w-canna-coco.48644/#post-853040

Some guy tries to replicate the Canna recipe: https://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=237053

Unfortunately, none of these fine intellectuals had proper analysis performed on the nutrients. In my original post I presented a nutrient analysis, here is another as reference and confirmation of the Canna NPK profile:


View attachment 648184

That's a 500 ml batch of Canna A+B applied at ~16ML/Gal. The nutrient solution was mixed with tap water, the irrigation suitability analysis on the tap water should be here any day to be review in reference.

---------------------------

As our Canna Rep mentioned above, we must be mindful of the medium we are using, as each may have unique characteristics that must be accounted for when engineering a solution. Here is a must read post by one of our fellow THCFarmers about Coco coir medium properties and nutrients:



Here are some these useful links/articles in regards to Coco Coir characteristics:

http://hortamericas.blogspot.com/2015/07/buffering-coir-not-necessary-if-its.html?m=1

http://blog.botanicare.com/calcium-magnesium-and-coco/

http://www.pthorticulture.com/en/tr...ion-exchange-capacity-soilless-growing-media/

------------------------------

I am still digesting this information myself, and will return again shortly.

X
Canna has PLENTY of magnesium in tje base. Its iron that is sorta low and this is generally true with alot of nutrient brands. According to tissue analysis. .iron is the missing link. And its a a stubborn nute mineral too. Chelates like dtpa and eddha help alot...as does humic fulvic acid.
 
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costa

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Hi again all . I did a feed this morning with no Epsom or Cal.,,,, @ 10 L of RO @ 30 ppm ( 0.5 scale ) , I gave them 20 ml boost , 5 ml Rhiz and 25 ml of Zym . Then used A+B to bring it up to 600 ppm , approx . 26 ml and a bit lol . I'll be keeping a very close eye on them in the next few days . I hope the A+B has got enough cal/mag. in it to handle the 30 ppm water . Fingers crossed
OK , I gave the above mix to half of the plants , and they have started to go pale ,,,,, will be adding Epsom and cal . next feed . I've been in coco for 9 years , but I'm a slow learner with a bad memory , even with my log book to help me ,,,, lol So , my A+B don't seem to have enough cal/mag in it to handle RO @ 30 ppm without adding cal. and mag. That makes me wonder if it is right what I read somewhere ,,, A+B needs to reach 700 ppm before it can handle RO without adding any cal/mag ?????? What do you think lads ? To green them back up , should I go higher with the A+B , or add the cal/mag back into the mix ?
 
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costa

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BTW , I flipped them to 12/12 a couple of days ago after 6 week veg.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

Premium Member
Supporter
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I don’t want to be contradictory or argumentative as I am just giving my two cents...

I know of a few commercial grower growing big plants that feed the Canna line at 1500 – 2000 ppm with very good results and all of the use CalMag to compensate for deficiencies…

I read here concerns with going over 600 ppm and I am not sure why...
Welcome @MikeGreat Good question as @FarmerX said this thread is for knowledge and I would hope that any input is valid even if it goes against the grain so to speak. We are all hungry for learning how to grow our plants well with as little problems as possible.

I subscribe to FamerX's thought overall ideology as I have for a long time felt that a lot of us try to force feed our girls and get the fastest biggest yields we can via the bottle of nutes.

I have found in my journey a minimalist approach works best for me, along with quality genetics and environment being as dialed as possible. I think a lot of us got caught in the frenzy of the new flavor/strain of the month and not a lot of farmers are learning each strain by running it multiple times to learn the strain and phenos within that group. With really getting to know a strain and its phenos you really can become one with your plants and know them inside and out. This also allows us to grow with lower stress levels due to the fact we really have a handle on what each strain needs to realize it maximum genetic potential. Once you can dial a strain you will find the minimalist approach works really well. I rarely if ever exceed 600-700 ppm And I dont use a lot of bloom boosters or Terpinators, Bud Candy yada yada yada. I still today believe it is the genetics first and foremost and learning how to bring them to present their very best without dozens of bottles.

Growing top shelf cannabis is really an art that very few people ever reach especially those that chase the newest strain/ fad each run. There is a farmer here with a killer sig line that really sets the bar as far of what each grower should live by. Please don't take this as I am telling you what to do, I was just sharing my experience and thoughts. Take what you want and leave the rest. :cool: But by all means please do "pay your knowledge forward"
@FarmerX Great thread BTW. :)
 
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Pimples

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I don’t want to be contradictory or argumentative as I am just giving my two cents...

I know of a few commercial grower growing big plants that feed the Canna line at 1500 – 2000 ppm with very good results and all of the use CalMag to compensate for deficiencies…

I read here concerns with going over 600 ppm and I am not sure why...
Many growrooms have such high intense light and such perfect climate controlled amd co2 gassed setups that running high ec is the only way to do it. The plant in them high performance setups REQUIRE it. Most growers dont have that kind of setup.If your temps..humidity and co2 levels fluctuate day to day depending on whatever it is outside or season to season outside...even just a little..beyond your control with what you got...your room is not as tight is it could be. Thats the truth. But its also true that its very expensive to have such a dialed setup. It all depends on what you want out of your crops. How much time and money your willing to spend to get there.
 
F

FarmerX

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Happy to see some more input this morning!

As I've already mentioned my preferences and strategies, Id rather not spend too much time discussing it further, but I encourage others to share their opinions and experience in relation to environment and feed strength. My final thoughts on the subject: In my experience running various setups at different levels of control and variables, I'd suggest that the more money you spend the easier it becomes, the less money you spend the more difficult becomes; both perform at an equivalent standard if the latter is correctly operated.

------------------

BACK TO CANNA:

This morning I performed a simple experiment to compare the efficacy of Canna's A+B versus Botanicares Cal-Mag+ to achieve additional Cal-Mag.

Process:
- 1500 ML of water was equally distributed between two sterile and rinsed containers(#1 and #2).
- 5ML of Cal-Mag+ was added to container #1.
- 2.5ML A and 2.5ML B was added to container #2.

Results:
Container #1 - 2.1EC / 9Ca - 3Mg - (Additional Chelated Iron).
Container #2 - 1.6EC / 12Ca - 4Mg - (Additonal Macro & Trace Minerals).

Conclusion:
A similar experiment should be performed by each individual, but the results here suggests that the increase of Canna A+B is a superior method of increasing Ca-Mg levels when compared to Botanicares Cal-Mag+.

Other comments:
- Farmers may be confusing a Magnesium deficiency for a "Cal-Mag deficiency." I am not seeing signs of calcium deficiency, but I am seeing some Magnesium deficiency on some of my cultivars. I will be attempting a formula which decreases the Ca:Mg ratios from 3:1 to 2:1.
- Next I will compare the efficacy of Canna A+B versus Magnesium Sulfate(Epsom Salts) to achieve additional Magnesium.
Cal-Mag+ may still be more affective in delivering additional Fe. If that is the goal, I would suggest investing in an iron supplement, and avoiding the use of Botanicares Cal-Mag+ Altogether.
- Potential considerations for an improved formula includes the adjustment of the Ca:Mg ratio to 2:1 and and increase of Iron presence to 1-2PPM(Consideration of Antagonism is necessary).

Cheers,

X
 
F

FarmerX

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Today I am setting aside two cuttings. One that will be fed a canna A+B solution, and another that will receive a Canna A+B and Epsom Salt solution to achieve a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio.

Solution #1: 10ML A+B / Gal
140N - 50P - 70K - 120Ca - 40Mg

Solution #2: 10ML A+B and .77G Epsom Salt / Gal
140N - 50P - 70K - 120Ca - 60Mg

The addition of Epsom salts is base on a Canna A+B : Epsom Salt ratio of 1ML : 77mg. For every 12Ca-4Mg PPM provided by 1ML Canna/Gal Water, there is ~2Mg PPM provided by 77mg Epsom Salts/1ML Canna/Gal Water; resulting in the single gallon solution containing 12Ca-6Mg PPM.

I'll be looking for:
- Magnesium Deificency in Solution #1.
- Improved plant health and vigor in Solution #2.
- Antagonisms in solution #2.
- Synergism on solution #2.

Mg = Magnesium
mg = MiliGrams

Cheers,

X

P.S. Magnesium Nitrate would be my primary suggestion when trying to achieve higher levels of magnesium in the vegetative stage when using Coconut Coir mediums. Epsom salts also contains sulfur, which Coco Coir naturally caries an abundance of, and is argued to be useful in the flowering phase.
 
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F

FarmerX

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Good stuff Farmer . I added epsom and cal. to the a+b again , just waiting now to see if they will ' green ' up again

Paling at top or bottom of plants?

Looking forward to hearing the outcome of your Cal-Mag addition.
 
F

FarmerX

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33
@costa

Would you be able to share a photo of the deficiency with us?

The paling from the top does indicate a deficiency like calcium, but it could also be another immobile element too. Light proximity, overwatering, and pH instability can cause a similar affect.

Cheers,

X
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

Premium Member
Supporter
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I would be curious to see a pic as well as sometimes growers freak out due to the new growth coming out of the meristem can at times look pale but that is due to lack of photosynthesis because the leaves are brand new and need time to green up.
 
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