Whorled Phyllotaxy locked in trait?

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jamesmessenger1

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Anyone ever lock in this trait?

I have a plant that maintains the tri nodal branching the whole plant, and I’m taking clones to try and stabilize this trait.
 
jamesmessenger1

jamesmessenger1

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Well I’m going to try.

I imagine it’s a recessive trait sort of like auto flowering, so it might take a generation or two.
 
mancorn

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You say it maintains the branching. How old/size is the plant? It normally goes away as the plant grows.
 
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jamesmessenger1

jamesmessenger1

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You say it maintains the branching. How old/size is the plant? It normally goes away as the plant grows.
Well it has maintained this trait for all 10 nodes, but some of the secondary branching has normal bi nodal spacing. But it’s way more dominant than I have ever seen anyway.
 
mancorn

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I had a GG a few years back and did some research. But I don’t remember the details. 🤪 I did top it, which I believe was suggested it wouldn’t continue. Don’t know if it was the topping or it would just grow out of it. I originally was going to pollen chuck it, but after researching didn’t bother.

IMG 1493


It was this size when it stopped.

IMG 1477


And now that I think about it I had chucked this seed and gave some to a buddy. One of his had the Fasciation - where the stem flattens out and becomes really wide. The bud on that branch was really weird (and not in a good way).
 
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amneziaHaze

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I have it now.main branch and one side branch are doing 3 rest of them are doing 2.i am spraying it with silver now.
Doing a diary.

That what you have is flat stem its shit makes huge buds with wood in the middle full of leaves i hate it.
 
HerbalEdu

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whorled phylotaxy is a mutation not a trait ...

A trait is a particular expression of a gene that is determined by the presence of dominant or reccessive alleles, while a mutation is the change in expression of a gene due to any alteration in the allele.
Not all kind of mutations are hereditary.
 
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amneziaHaze

amneziaHaze

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Preserving the Whorled Phyllotaxy Trait

Since whorled phyllotaxy is not bad news since it gives your cannabis plant a bushier structure and results in a slightly higher yield, some breeders may want to preserve this anomaly. This peculiarity is unstable or fragile and it cannot be preserved. It can appear on a cannabis plant and disappear upon breeding or in attempts of replicating. Therefore, if you find a plant with whorled phyllotaxy, enjoy it while it lasts.

Maybe if you male and female you could save it
 
HerbalEdu

HerbalEdu

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Maybe if you male and female you could save it
nope. not an hereditary mutation as you've said "it cannot be preseverved" from one generation to the next.

and as it's unstable you may lost it through cloning ...
 
amneziaHaze

amneziaHaze

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Well its a combination of genes soo it should be able just probably hard to get the same combination. Bit its not a enviorment mutation

Whats weird is that not the whole plant has the genes.in my case just the main and one side branch rest is normal.same as his only the main has it
 
HerbalEdu

HerbalEdu

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Well its a combination of genes soo it should be able just probably hard to get the same combination. Bit its not a enviorment mutation

Whats weird is that not the whole plant has the genes.in my case just the main and one side branch rest is normal.same as his only the main has it
mutations just happen from a statitstic point of view.

some mutations are more common than some others.

Nothing weird with the mutations happening locally and not with the whole plant, that's one of the reason it's not hereditary it doesn't affect the reproductive cells but some cells that are already specialised and only continue to reproduce and expend from where it started, as it's unstable it may stop at some point or getting even more branches per nodes also. It may or may not affect none, some or all the secondary branches.
 
amneziaHaze

amneziaHaze

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Ok, I just found what's probably the best resource on phyllotaxy I found so far, especially when including the references at the bottom

Phyllotaxis: In Search of the Golden Angle
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982211006415

Excerpt:
"The regularity of the arrangement of leaves, flowers or floral organs in plants, a phenomenon called phyllotaxis, can not only be easily observed by anyone, but it is also the source of inspiration for scientists since the classical antiquity. [...] For instance, if leaves grow one by one, each at a constant angle from the previous one, the phyllotaxis is called distichous when the angle is 180° or spiral when the divergence angle is close to the golden angle, about 137.5°. When two evenly spread organs are formed on a node, the phyllotaxis is decussate, and whorled when three or more organs arise simultaneously. Although phyllotactic patterns tend to be stable, they are affected by environmental factors and may change during the development of the plant. For instance, in the model plant Arabidopsis thaliana, the embryonic leaves and the two first vegetative leaves show a decussate pattern before switching to a spiral phyllotaxis for later vegetative leaves and flowers, and finally to a whorled pattern for floral organs"

Mine go from decussate (regular opposite) to whorled (3 leaves on same level), then switch to spiral (because they start alternating) and then revert to whorled when the internodes shortened at the end of the transition to flowering, and spiral again in the buds.

It's the first transition that matters, the rest is then inevitable.

"genes of the PLETHORA family have been shown to modulate these transitions by fine-tuning the mechanisms of polar transport of auxin, a key effector of organogenesis."

Further research shows the PLT1 and PL2 genes are responsible.

"The response to auxin signals may be mediated, at least in part, by the PLETHORA genes: PLT1 and PLT2."

The same genes are also responsible for root development. This raises two questions, can I spot the tris faster by looking at roots, and do the plethora family of genes follow mendels simple rules of inheritance.

I also ran into something called expansin, which combines with phyllotaxy leads to a load of additional info to go through. Theoretically it may be possible to create tri-whorled in a bottle...

The book The Molecular Life of Plants talk about what I mentioned in an earlier post, that the different than usual phyllotaxy is caused by a different interaction of cytokinin and auxin, as has been shows in a mutated gene in a maize variery that encodes a cytokinin signal transduction protein.

Possible influence of sulfur availability:
"Low sulfate levels also downregulate the genes involved in auxin biosynthesis and transport, and elevate the accumulation of PLT1 and PLT2. This study suggests that sulfate level affects the primary root elongation by regulating the endogenous auxin level and root stem cell niche maintenance."

Plastochron
The difference between the whorled and semi whorled/spiral may be all due to a plastochron difference. Cool word, plastochron, like a super villain. Plastochron is the time between leaf initiation. Plastochron is however regulated by different genes than phyllotaxy. I've had whorlers with a non-optimal plastochron as in one of the three starting a little later.
 
jamesmessenger1

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So I managed to clone two cuttings that are continuing the branching, but I cut the first one short to try and mainline, and it’s awesome lol.

The other one I topped just to see if it would continue, and it did for one more node.

I’m still convinced that it’s a trait that can be isolated after seeing the original plant.

I’ll try and get some photos soon.
 
jamesmessenger1

jamesmessenger1

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Just thought that a mainline with three mains, and then if I could get those to send out three branch nodes even just once…it’d be awesome!😎
 
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