Ecompost
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yeah they did a new one of these recently too, Future Food I think it was called. Interesting for sure bro thanks
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
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Future Food or Future of Food..? I seem to recall some programming I saw from the Sacramento PBS station, but I can't record the program unless I can find it down here. What I *do* have access to is not one, not TWO, but FOUR SoCal PBS stations, and one of them broadcasts FNX--First Nations Experience--which offers an amazing array of programming focused on Native peoples of both continents (North and South America), and that includes a good bit of land management discussion as well as native ag methods. Absolutely fascinating, they were thriving when the first Anglos got out here (the area was largely ignored by the Spaniards).
I also just finished a story on the Timbisha Shoshone's land management practices. They were one of the tribes native to this region and the Death Valley area. I also saw a program on the Kumeyaay, a southern California/northern Mexico tribe and how they managed the land, but that's on my DVR. This story on the Timbisha is a bit of a read, but it's *very* educational.
https://www.kcet.org/shows/tending-...-rights-the-timbisha-shoshone-in-death-valley
I like how they say 'roots' and 'manure.' I am LOVING this part of the discussion. I wanna find some Greg Judy rotational grazing action to share with you folks, but I've can't recall any videos, only hardcopy. IIRC he's in.. one of the Dakotas.
What an AMAZING story, thank you so much for sharing that. It's also encouraging. Some years ago I read about a woman who lives somewhere out here in this massive Mojave desert, and she's greened up her area by just planting trees. I don't know if she irrigated them or not.
I also just finished a story on the Timbisha Shoshone's land management practices. They were one of the tribes native to this region and the Death Valley area. I also saw a program on the Kumeyaay, a southern California/northern Mexico tribe and how they managed the land, but that's on my DVR. This story on the Timbisha is a bit of a read, but it's *very* educational.
https://www.kcet.org/shows/tending-...-rights-the-timbisha-shoshone-in-death-valley
Ecompost
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bookmarked thank you.
In Spain and across the med, the women are on the land in a big way its cool. They sit and quietly observe, their gardens are always the brightest. Their knowledge is deep and they work hard, esp where food production is the outcome. its the desire to provide I reckon. They have a very different connection to plants and the land than many of the men I have met here on farms etc. They seem to enjoy a plant more locally before they value it in any wider market sense, if ever they do. They plant for beauty, as well as for food, this brings in the bugs they are so keen to explain, profit is a sideline for them I sense and captured by the men in many cases here to insure bravado is maintained.
It just so happens they also have productive spaces too these ladies here and they get plants to grow where I have struggled and so i was quick to tap them up. They seem to really enjoy sharing info too, where the male farmers etc are more caged and unsure if i am here to take over or if i am just trying to fit in too hard.
Ecompost
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I think this complex and rather long paper goes someway to help explain concepts of CaCO3 with regards calcerous soils, I couldnt remember if we covered this and was reminded today in discussion, couldnt see if it was posted so to tag it to your comment here seemed OK.
I hope this helps, i was going to paste a snippet but it formatted all wonky. It appears pH is a factor of overall CO2 pressure and ionic strenght. Plus results seem to vary based on the number of free alkalis
hang on..
In Fig.2 the pH of a saturated CaCOa solution is plotted as a function of the calcium ion concentration at the four levels of Pco2 indicated.
The calcium concentration corresponding to the solubility of gypsum is also indicated. The graphs demonstrate that pH of calcareous soils will generallyvary in the range of pH 7.0--8.0, but may also reach pH 8.5.
Measured values of pH within this range reflect therefore merely the CO2 pressure and ionic strength at the time of measurement, and do not give any indication of the nature of the salts present in the soil solution.
Only when the pH rises above 8.5 is there sufficient evidence that sodium carbonate or other strong alkali salts are present in the soil.If alkali salts are suspected in a soil with a pH lower than 8.5 other means fortheir characterization must be employed.
If the pH falls below 7.0 it may indicate little or no CaCOa in the soil.
Ecompost
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also @Seamaiden i found this quite handy re P in calcerous soils
https://www.researchgate.net/public...neral_phosphate_fractions_in_calcareous_soils.
Increasing application rate of organic residues allowed P to be retained in more labile fractions for a longer period. The amount of Ca-P was found to be related with carbonate content of soils. It can be concluded that organic residues applied to calcareous soils may enhance P nutrition of agricultural plants.
So then, cover cropping and mob grazing :)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...neral_phosphate_fractions_in_calcareous_soils.
Increasing application rate of organic residues allowed P to be retained in more labile fractions for a longer period. The amount of Ca-P was found to be related with carbonate content of soils. It can be concluded that organic residues applied to calcareous soils may enhance P nutrition of agricultural plants.
So then, cover cropping and mob grazing :)
Ecompost
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The Effect of CaCO3 On Nitrogen Transformations
Soil pH affects the rates of several reactions involving N and can influence the efficiency of N use by plants. Nitrification, or the conversion of ammonium (NH4+) to nitrate (NO3-) by soil bacteria, is most rapid in soils with pH values between 7 and 8. Nitrification approaches zero below pH 5. Ammonium-N fertilizers applied to calcareous soils are converted within a few days to nitrate, which moves freely with soil water. The acidity produced during nitrification is quickly neutralized in highly calcareous soils but may lower the pH value in soils containing low levels of CaCO3.
Ammonia volatilization is the loss of N to the atmosphere through conversion of the ammonium ion to ammonia gas (NH3). Volatilization of ammoniacal-N fertilizer is significant only if the soil surface pH value is greater than 7 where the fertilizer is applied. This condition occurs in calcareous soils, or where the breakdown of the N fertilizer produces alkaline conditions (e.g., urea decomposition). Nitrogen loss through ammonia volatilization on calcareous soils is a concern when ammoniacal N is applied to the grove floor and remains there without moving into the soil. Following an application of dry fertilizer containing ammoniacal N, the fertilizer should be moved into the root zone through irrigation or mechanical incorporation if rainfall is not imminent. Since urea breakdown creates alkaline conditions near the fertilizer particle, surface application of urea can cause N loss if the urea is not incorporated or irrigated into the soil, regardless of initial soil pH.
The Effect of CaCO3 On Magnesium and Potassium
Although low concentrations of Mg and K in citrus leaves are not uncommon in groves planted on calcareous soils, there is not necessarily a concurrent reduction in fruit yield or quality. If a low concentration of leaf K or Mg is found in a grove that produces satisfactory yield and quality, attempts to increase leaf levels with fertilizer are not necessary. However, if a detrimental condition such as low yield, small fruit, or creasing is observed, an attempt to raise the leaf K or Mg concentration with fertilizer is justified.
It is often difficult to increase leaf Mg and K levels with fertilizer applied directly to calcareous soils, which contain tremendous quantities of both exchangeable and nonexchangeable Ca. Leaf Mg and K concentrations are strongly influenced by soil conditions that control leaf Ca concentration, including high soil Ca levels. High Ca levels suppress Mg and K uptake by citrus trees in part, presumably, through the competition of Ca2+, Mg2+, and K+. Citrus growing on soils high in Ca often requires above normal levels of Mg and K fertilizer for satisfactory tree nutrition. In cases where soil-applied fertilizer is ineffective, the only means of increasing leaf Mg or K concentration may be through foliar application of water-soluble fertilizers, such as magnesium nitrate [Mg(NO3)2] or potassium nitrate (KNO3).
The Effect of CaCO3 On Phosphorus
Phosphorus availability in calcareous soils is almost always limited. The P concentration in the soil solution is the factor most closely related to P availability to plants. The sustainable concentration is related to the solid forms of P that dissolve to replenish soil solution P following its depletion by crop uptake. Many different solid forms of phosphorus exist in combination with Ca in calcareous soils. After P fertilizer is added to a calcareous soil, it undergoes a series of chemical reactions with Ca that decrease its solubility with time (a process referred to as P fixation). Consequently, the long-term availability of P to plants is controlled by the application rate of soluble P and the dissolution of fixed P. Applied P is available to replenish the soil solution for only a relatively short time before it converts to less soluble forms of P.
Testing Calcareous Soils for P
Accumulation and loss of soil P can be evaluated through soil testing, but more information is required to make a fertilizer recommendation based on this method. The amount of extractable P must be related to crop yield or quality. An ideal P-extracting solution should remove from soils only those forms of P that are available to plants. This is difficult to achieve with the extracting solutions that are currently used.
The major extractants used by southeastern U.S soil testing laboratories to measure soil P include Mehlich 1 (double acid), Bray P1 and P2, and sodium bicarbonate. Mehlich 1 is not appropriate for use on calcareous soils because its extracting ability is weakened by exposure to CaCO3. While Bray and sodium bicarbonate have been consistently correlated to P uptake by plants growing on calcareous soils in other parts of the United States, these extractants have not been calibrated with citrus leaf P concentration or yield on Florida calcareous soils. Mehlich 3, a newer extractant with promising ability for Florida conditions, is not yet widely used and also will require calibration. Currently, no suitable extractant for soil P has an established, calibrated sufficiency level for use with citrus grown on Florida calcareous soils.
The Effect of CaCO3 On Zinc and Manganese
Soil pH is the most important factor regulating Zn and Mn supply in alkaline soils. At alkaline (high) pH values, Zn and Mn form precipitous compounds with low water solubility, markedly decreasing their availability to plants. A soil pH value of less than 7 is preferred to ensure that Zn and Mn are available to plants in sufficient amounts. The soil around a plant root (the rhizosphere) tends to be acidic due to root exudation of H+ ions. Therefore, soils that are slightly alkaline may not necessarily be deficient in Zn or Mn. In addition, Zn and Mn can be chelated by natural organic compounds in the soil, a process that aids the movement of these nutrients to the plant root. On highly alkaline soils, however, Zn and Mn deficiencies are not uncommon. Soil applications of Zn and Mn fertilizers are generally ineffective in these situations, but deficiencies can be corrected through the use of foliar sprays.
The Effect of CaCO3 on Iron
Calcareous soils may contain high levels of total Fe, but in forms unavailable to plants. Visible Fe deficiency, or Fe chlorosis, is common in citrus. The term chlorosis signifies a yellowing of plant foliage, whereas Fe deficiency implies that leaf Fe concentration is low. Owing to the nature and causes of Fe chlorosis, however, Fe concentration is not necessarily related to degree of chlorosis. In chlorotic plants, Fe concentrations can be higher than, equal to, or lower than those in normal plants. Thus, this disorder on calcareous soils is not always attributable to Fe deficiency. It may be a condition known as lime-induced Fe chlorosis. Iron is considerably less soluble than Zn or Mn in soils with a pH value of 8. Thus, inorganic Fe contributes relatively little to the Fe nutrition of plants in calcareous soils. Most of the soluble Fe in the soil is complexed by natural organic compounds. (Fe nutrition in plants has improved in response to the application of sewage sludge, which contains organically complexed Fe.) The primary factor associated with Fe chlorosis under calcareous conditions appears to be the effect of the bicarbonate ion (HCO3) on Fe uptake and/or translocation in the plant. The result is Fe inactivation or immobilization in plant tissue.
Susceptibility to Fe chlorosis depends on a plant's response to Fe deficiency stress, which is controlled genetically. Citrus rootstocks vary widely in their ability to overcome low Fe stress (see Table 2). The easiest way to avoid lime-induced Fe chlorosis in citrus trees to be planted on calcareous soils is to use tolerant rootstocks. Existing Fe chlorosis can be corrected by using organic chelates
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ch086
Soil pH affects the rates of several reactions involving N and can influence the efficiency of N use by plants. Nitrification, or the conversion of ammonium (NH4+) to nitrate (NO3-) by soil bacteria, is most rapid in soils with pH values between 7 and 8. Nitrification approaches zero below pH 5. Ammonium-N fertilizers applied to calcareous soils are converted within a few days to nitrate, which moves freely with soil water. The acidity produced during nitrification is quickly neutralized in highly calcareous soils but may lower the pH value in soils containing low levels of CaCO3.
Ammonia volatilization is the loss of N to the atmosphere through conversion of the ammonium ion to ammonia gas (NH3). Volatilization of ammoniacal-N fertilizer is significant only if the soil surface pH value is greater than 7 where the fertilizer is applied. This condition occurs in calcareous soils, or where the breakdown of the N fertilizer produces alkaline conditions (e.g., urea decomposition). Nitrogen loss through ammonia volatilization on calcareous soils is a concern when ammoniacal N is applied to the grove floor and remains there without moving into the soil. Following an application of dry fertilizer containing ammoniacal N, the fertilizer should be moved into the root zone through irrigation or mechanical incorporation if rainfall is not imminent. Since urea breakdown creates alkaline conditions near the fertilizer particle, surface application of urea can cause N loss if the urea is not incorporated or irrigated into the soil, regardless of initial soil pH.
The Effect of CaCO3 On Magnesium and Potassium
Although low concentrations of Mg and K in citrus leaves are not uncommon in groves planted on calcareous soils, there is not necessarily a concurrent reduction in fruit yield or quality. If a low concentration of leaf K or Mg is found in a grove that produces satisfactory yield and quality, attempts to increase leaf levels with fertilizer are not necessary. However, if a detrimental condition such as low yield, small fruit, or creasing is observed, an attempt to raise the leaf K or Mg concentration with fertilizer is justified.
It is often difficult to increase leaf Mg and K levels with fertilizer applied directly to calcareous soils, which contain tremendous quantities of both exchangeable and nonexchangeable Ca. Leaf Mg and K concentrations are strongly influenced by soil conditions that control leaf Ca concentration, including high soil Ca levels. High Ca levels suppress Mg and K uptake by citrus trees in part, presumably, through the competition of Ca2+, Mg2+, and K+. Citrus growing on soils high in Ca often requires above normal levels of Mg and K fertilizer for satisfactory tree nutrition. In cases where soil-applied fertilizer is ineffective, the only means of increasing leaf Mg or K concentration may be through foliar application of water-soluble fertilizers, such as magnesium nitrate [Mg(NO3)2] or potassium nitrate (KNO3).
The Effect of CaCO3 On Phosphorus
Phosphorus availability in calcareous soils is almost always limited. The P concentration in the soil solution is the factor most closely related to P availability to plants. The sustainable concentration is related to the solid forms of P that dissolve to replenish soil solution P following its depletion by crop uptake. Many different solid forms of phosphorus exist in combination with Ca in calcareous soils. After P fertilizer is added to a calcareous soil, it undergoes a series of chemical reactions with Ca that decrease its solubility with time (a process referred to as P fixation). Consequently, the long-term availability of P to plants is controlled by the application rate of soluble P and the dissolution of fixed P. Applied P is available to replenish the soil solution for only a relatively short time before it converts to less soluble forms of P.
Testing Calcareous Soils for P
Accumulation and loss of soil P can be evaluated through soil testing, but more information is required to make a fertilizer recommendation based on this method. The amount of extractable P must be related to crop yield or quality. An ideal P-extracting solution should remove from soils only those forms of P that are available to plants. This is difficult to achieve with the extracting solutions that are currently used.
The major extractants used by southeastern U.S soil testing laboratories to measure soil P include Mehlich 1 (double acid), Bray P1 and P2, and sodium bicarbonate. Mehlich 1 is not appropriate for use on calcareous soils because its extracting ability is weakened by exposure to CaCO3. While Bray and sodium bicarbonate have been consistently correlated to P uptake by plants growing on calcareous soils in other parts of the United States, these extractants have not been calibrated with citrus leaf P concentration or yield on Florida calcareous soils. Mehlich 3, a newer extractant with promising ability for Florida conditions, is not yet widely used and also will require calibration. Currently, no suitable extractant for soil P has an established, calibrated sufficiency level for use with citrus grown on Florida calcareous soils.
The Effect of CaCO3 On Zinc and Manganese
Soil pH is the most important factor regulating Zn and Mn supply in alkaline soils. At alkaline (high) pH values, Zn and Mn form precipitous compounds with low water solubility, markedly decreasing their availability to plants. A soil pH value of less than 7 is preferred to ensure that Zn and Mn are available to plants in sufficient amounts. The soil around a plant root (the rhizosphere) tends to be acidic due to root exudation of H+ ions. Therefore, soils that are slightly alkaline may not necessarily be deficient in Zn or Mn. In addition, Zn and Mn can be chelated by natural organic compounds in the soil, a process that aids the movement of these nutrients to the plant root. On highly alkaline soils, however, Zn and Mn deficiencies are not uncommon. Soil applications of Zn and Mn fertilizers are generally ineffective in these situations, but deficiencies can be corrected through the use of foliar sprays.
The Effect of CaCO3 on Iron
Calcareous soils may contain high levels of total Fe, but in forms unavailable to plants. Visible Fe deficiency, or Fe chlorosis, is common in citrus. The term chlorosis signifies a yellowing of plant foliage, whereas Fe deficiency implies that leaf Fe concentration is low. Owing to the nature and causes of Fe chlorosis, however, Fe concentration is not necessarily related to degree of chlorosis. In chlorotic plants, Fe concentrations can be higher than, equal to, or lower than those in normal plants. Thus, this disorder on calcareous soils is not always attributable to Fe deficiency. It may be a condition known as lime-induced Fe chlorosis. Iron is considerably less soluble than Zn or Mn in soils with a pH value of 8. Thus, inorganic Fe contributes relatively little to the Fe nutrition of plants in calcareous soils. Most of the soluble Fe in the soil is complexed by natural organic compounds. (Fe nutrition in plants has improved in response to the application of sewage sludge, which contains organically complexed Fe.) The primary factor associated with Fe chlorosis under calcareous conditions appears to be the effect of the bicarbonate ion (HCO3) on Fe uptake and/or translocation in the plant. The result is Fe inactivation or immobilization in plant tissue.
Susceptibility to Fe chlorosis depends on a plant's response to Fe deficiency stress, which is controlled genetically. Citrus rootstocks vary widely in their ability to overcome low Fe stress (see Table 2). The easiest way to avoid lime-induced Fe chlorosis in citrus trees to be planted on calcareous soils is to use tolerant rootstocks. Existing Fe chlorosis can be corrected by using organic chelates
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ch086
Ecompost
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My argument is always gonna be build the soil by adopting the key principles of soil health, number 1 of which is make sure there is a living root in the ground, then use covers to get there, it takes time but in the end its the only truly sustainable way to manage soil Ca levels imo and of course for every 1% of SOM we can add many thousands of litres of water per acre. I just dont see the constant application of Gypsum as sustainable long term, but I understand people are in a hurry not to starve to death
Homesteader
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Roots or should I say ruts?
Homesteader
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Homesteader
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Ecompost
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I saw this is mad huh, we can stop tho
Ecompost
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USDA must be pushing this when most of the opinion leaders are showing the benefits, eg Gabe et al. Its the only way I get drought protection here
Homesteader
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In the farm bill here, any farmer who buys in with a hill above a certain grade must be no till.
Homesteader
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Ecompost
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check out the air bombing the sheep farmers do in New Zealand bro for farming on a hill. ere we use lots of terracing
Ecompost
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Homesteader
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@Slownickel @Bulldog420 May be interested in this webinar at around 7:00. Lots of great evidence on gypsum usage, it even quotes from Benjamin Franklin about using it (Nova Scotian Gypsum) in his fields.
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Homesteader
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45:00 has a decent lecture
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Homesteader
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Flue gas gypsum is actually a cleaner product than organic mined gypsum or so I have read and heard in several different places and lacks many of the heavy metals that mined inevitably have.
And why not talk fire protection?
And why not talk fire protection?
Homesteader
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