Outdoor Supersoil

[Ecompost]

She has some purple stem from when i overdosed her with bio balance, hopefully she well

sounds like a nitrogen issue, perhaps there is a conflict with the organic inputs leading to a temporary reduction, or indeed overload as the organics come on stream? Its possible the humates freaked out your biology a bit. They may well have slowed. A protozoa tea will help you find the answer, If the plant picks up quickly after the application then we can be safe it was a tie up, if not then there may be some fluctuation caused by an overload of organic acids that will right itself, just dont add any more. I find I sometimes get red stems after reusing my media and the peat begins to degrade, this can tie up vast amounts of N while it happens and I get massive bacterial blooms which can overload my media with biofilm peaking pH and dropping NH4+ production, then all of a sudden, a truck load of it becomes available and if i havent tapered and or my timings are off, then I get moderate stress which can take a while to sort out. I use an ACC N complex via foliar which usually fixes things. If you've added too much sugar, this can impact decay rates and also tie up additional N, once again a foliar K+AMINO will help pick up your NH4+
Dont forget, every time you add something, your microbes will steal your N to process it. This is why even our new unreleased PK has Amino N as well... :-)

 

[Ecompost]

This was b4 the product came online, i had sample of new product I believe ! Instead of mixing 1gr i mixed 5 grams =1liter oops lol her new growth is healthy
They're all ready for transplant , close to rootbound!

the overload of organic acids will stimulate massive oxygen levels and help boost root mass if not above ground action. Sometimes previously bound elements such as Fe can become available in a mass as the organic acids begin the process of chelation. Dont forget, humic acids are powerful siderophores and can act to make available, previously locked elements which can often lead to an overloading.
TB is right however, it is dreadfully hard to burn a plant using BOX, more likely something environmental, something in the water, or media out of the control of BOX would have interfered. BOX is ultra low salt :-) Organics works in a timed way, even if you go mental and add 5 times the dose you shouldnt get burn, you will get sick, but not burnt plants. Bit like you if you eat to much luke warm apple pie, it wont burn your belly, but it will make you feel queer

 

[Ecompost]

I like to introduce decaying wood pieces to my soil in some fashion and same with pre-conditioned biochar either when mixing soils or top dressing. Ideally using those materials, for water retention, indigenous microbes, aeration, and increasing C. Curious of what my C:N is in some of my beds, specially my hugelkultur beds. I assume the biochar I make/use is classified as 100:1 slow pyrolysis wood.
http://www.terrachar.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23790961/composting_with_biochar.pdf

Alfalfa has a lot of beneficial properties. Trace minerals as well as NPKCAMG, sugars, starches, protein, fiber, triacontanol. Good dynamic accumulator and cover crop, fixes nitrogen. I've heard cases of nematode controlling properties(knot,cysts), good mulch/holds water. I really only use alfalfa as a topdress personally, and usually mixed with other biodynamic accumulators or occasionally made into FPJ. Alfalfa used early in flower can reduce node spacing thanks to triacontanol, it can also be over used and give some mutated growth (I believe that sprouted alfalfa seeds have the most triacontanol available).

most sprouted teas can be a bugger for making mutants. I used a mixed cover crop (legume pack, and my plants literally grew circles man, the branches spiraled, the plants where way messed up but it was shit fun to watch. All seeds have powerful GH and lots of microbes and microbe signaling proteins by default

 

[Ecompost]

Ok well i transplanted a couple plants
Agent diesel i put in thd 100 gallon
707 truthband i put into 20 gal
Using mycos planted some more covercrop & added more worms watered in using tap water no ph'ing gonna add some hay maybe tonight! Hopefully temps dont get to cold if all is good in 2 days I'll put the rest out there wish me luck

hows the moisture levels in the pots?

 

[GrowingGreen]

:eyepiece:

hows the moisture levels in the pots?

I gave them all 2liters of fluids yesterday, that good to know bout Box, i just think its grower error for the purple stemming, she has since recovered, its been like a month 1/2 since that application, it could of been improper ph balance or something i dont do ph! All good tho doggy thank you. @TrubldBreeze, you were right :eyepiece:

 

[jumpincactus]

I like to introduce decaying wood pieces to my soil in some fashion and same with pre-conditioned biochar either when mixing soils or top dressing. Ideally using those materials, for water retention, indigenous microbes, aeration, and increasing C. Curious of what my C:N is in some of my beds, specially my hugelkultur beds. I assume the biochar I make/use is classified as 100:1 slow pyrolysis wood.
http://www.terrachar.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23790961/composting_with_biochar.pdf

Alfalfa has a lot of beneficial properties. Trace minerals as well as NPKCAMG, sugars, starches, protein, fiber, triacontanol. Good dynamic accumulator and cover crop, fixes nitrogen. I've heard cases of nematode controlling properties(knot,cysts), good mulch/holds water. I really only use alfalfa as a topdress personally, and usually mixed with other biodynamic accumulators or occasionally made into FPJ. Alfalfa used early in flower can reduce node spacing thanks to triacontanol, it can also be over used and give some mutated growth (I believe that sprouted alfalfa seeds have the most triacontanol available).

decaying wood is an excellent amendment as it also adds fungi that dont get as much fan fare as bacteria do. I like to add it to my compost heap. It is a good way to garner at least some of the saprophytic fungi which is a fancy name for "decomposers". They really aid the mineralization of various soil components and also create as a by product humic acid organic matter.

there are basically 3 classes of fungi that we as gardeners will encounter , of course we need to take care not to foster the growth of pathogenic type fungi as this can spell diaster for a otherwise healthy living soil.
1. Decomposers
2. Mutualists.... mycos we all know what they are
3.Pathogens

Heres a little info on our friends the decomposers

Saprophytic fungi are commonly active around woody plant residue. Fungal hyphae have advantages over bacteria in some soil environments. Under dry conditions, fungi can bridge gaps between pockets of moisture and continue to survive and grow, even when soil moisture is too low for most bacteria to be active. Fungi are able to use nitrogen up from the soil, allowing them to decompose surface residue which is often low in nitrogen.

Fungi are aerobic organisms. Soil which becomes anaerobic for significant periods generally loses its fungal component. Anaerobic conditions often occur in waterlogged soil and in compacted soils.

Fungi are especially extensive in forested lands. Forests have been observed to increase in productivity as fungal biomass increases.





Figure 5: In arid rangeland systems, such as southwestern deserts, fungi pipe scarce water and nutrients to plants.
Credit: Jerry Barrow, USDA-ARS Jornada Experimental Range, Las Cruces, NM. Figure 6: Mushrooms, common in forest systems, are the fruiting bodies made by a group of fungi called basidiomycetes. Mushrooms are "the tip of the iceberg" of an extensive network of underground hyphae.
Credit: Ann Lewandowski, NRCS Soil Quality Institute

 

[jumpincactus]

I posted this elsewhere, but its highly relevant here in light of organic amendments etc and time to grow being the key with MJ..

Ok, so Alan and I have been discussing various soil amendments and relationships between microbes, available Nitrogen and the time to decay being of primary importance. To make a point here, I have chosen Seaweed, Kelp or Brown Seaweed, no matter. Lets consider its addition and what this means in real terms to a grower expecting some result near instantly.

When seaweed, or indeed any under-composted organic matter, is put into the soil, it is attacked by bacteria which break the material down into simpler units -- in a word, decompose it. To do this effectively the bacteria need nitrogen, and this they take from the first available source, this usually being the soil. This means that after seaweed has been added to the soil, there is a period during which the amount of soil nitrogen available to plants is reduced. During this period seed germination, and the feeding and growth of plants, can be inhibited to greater or lesser degree. This temporary nitrogen deficiency is brought about when any under composted vegetable matter is added to the soil. In the case of straw, for example, which is ploughed in after harvest, bacteria use up soil nitrogen in breaking down its cellulose, so that a 'latent' period follows.

Farmers in the past, and even today to a lesser extent, burn stubble after harvest to avoid this latent period, and the short-term loss of available nitrogen which causes it. But such stubble-burning is done at the cost of soil structure, soil fertility, and long-term supplies of nitrogen which ultimately would have been released from the decomposed straw. Today we have a product that can activate decomposition at a far higher rate than if we left the matter and or hoped to till it in after harvest and hope its gone come time to plant again.

It has been said by one authority that the latent period following the application of seaweed to the soil is one of fifteen weeks. But during this period, while there is a temporary shortage of available nitrogen, total nitrogen in the soil is being increased. This increase makes itself felt after the seaweed is completely broken down. Total nitrogen then becomes available to the plant, and there is a corresponding upsurge in plant growth. This knowledge of relevant decay rates for organic inputs, will help growers better understand the limitations of fixed organic inputs such as Kelp Meal, Guano, Manure, Wood Chip and so on, but more, will help you guys understand the critical nature of ensuring a flow of readily available plant N to pick up the BioN shortfall during conversion. It it also worth noting, Applications of Nitrogen should be tapered towards the decay rate marker. In the case of Seaweed Meal this would be week 15 plus or minus 1 week depending on relative humidity, and temperature rates.

It is therefore clear that while seaweed, in common with all organic matter, is beneficial to soil and plant, it has to be broken down, or decomposed, before its benefits are available. (I have already pointed out, but repeat it here, that liquid seaweed extract is not subject to this latent period. The nutrients and other substances it contains are available to the plant at once, however, in processing to liquid states kind of changes the use case as its more of an instant fix, with nothing latent where meal is a slower release and more cost effective, less prone to mold, unlike liquid kelp which if not kept cool and dark will spoil really fast.

This period of decomposition -- or composting, as gardeners know it -- usually extends over months rather than the time it might take to grow a short day crop. It can, however, be reduced by the use of dried blood and loam according to the technique invented by Mr. L. C. Chilcott. Only fourteen days of heating up are required before the mixture is used, and no latent period follows. I can provide details for those of you interested.

Hope this helps you guys when you are out and about talking to folks about Organix and dont forget, it is the inherent need for microbes to convert organic matter that means they often rob Nitrogen from our growing plants until a balance of decay is met. This is what is meant when people say "I cook my soil". It is the time taken to decay all or most or some of the organic inputs before planting. To know if you need Nitrogen, a simple calculation will help BioN = BioC/8

Happy growing with Organix :)

Eco

Most excellent information. It never ceases to amaze me how many growers/farmers think that whipping up some supersoil with all the amndements that they are good to go. As in fact, the soil food web is a lengthy process for the fungi and bacteria to do their work and mineralize the goodies we put in the container. I would venture that in a 60 day strain by harvest you haven't even really begun to tap into the goodies that you labored hard and long to put together. Not to mention the $$$$ wasted each grow cycle.

 

[jumpincactus]

then lets not underestimate the importance of a healthy population of protozoa in our soil another integral part of the web. They are excellent sources of creating plant available N

This will explain them better than I can.

Protozoa are single-celled animals that feed primarily on bacteria, but also eat other protozoa, soluble organic matter, and sometimes fungi. They are several times larger than bacteria – ranging from 1/5000 to 1/50 of an inch (5 to 500 µm) in diameter. As they eat bacteria, protozoa release excess nitrogen that can then be used by plants and other members of the food web.

Protozoa are classified into three groups based on their shape: Ciliates are the largest and move by means of hair-like cilia. They eat the other two types of protozoa, as well as bacteria. Amoebae also can be quite large and move by means of a temporary foot or “pseudopod.” Amoebae are further divided intotestate amoebae (which make a shell-like covering) and naked amoebae (without a covering).Flagellates are the smallest of the protozoa and use a few whip-like flagella to move.





Figure 1: Protozoa play an important role in nutrient cycling by feeding intensively on bacteria. Notice the size of the speck-like bacteria next to the oval protozoa and large, angular sand particle.
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University, Corvallis Figure 2: Bacteria ingested by an amoeba.
Credit: No. 35 from Soil Microbiology and Biochemistry Slide Set. 1976. J.P. Martin, et al., eds. SSSA, Madison, WI




Figure 3: Flagellates have one or two flagella which they use to propel or pull their way through soil. A flagellum can be seen extending from the protozoan on the left. The tiny specks are bacteria.
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University, Corvallis Figure 6: Ciliates are the largest of the protozoa and the least numerous. They consume up to ten thousand bacteria per day, and release plant available nitrogen. Ciliates use the fine cilia along their bodies like oars to move rapidly through soil.
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University, Corvallis
WHAT DO PROTOZOA DO?

​

Protozoa play an important role in mineralizing nutrients, making them available for use by plants and other soil organisms. Protozoa (and nematodes) have a lower concentration of nitrogen in their cells than the bacteria they eat. (The ratio of carbon to nitrogen for protozoa is 10:1 or much more and 3:1 to 10:1 for bacteria.) Bacteria eaten by protozoa contain too much nitrogen for the amount of carbon protozoa need. They release the excess nitrogen in the form of ammonium (NH4+). This usually occurs near the root system of a plant. Bacteria and other organisms rapidly take up most of the ammonium, but some is used by the plant. (See figure for explanation of mineralization and immobilzation.)

Another role that protozoa play is in regulating bacteria populations. When they graze on bacteria, protozoa stimulate growth of the bacterial population (and, in turn, decomposition rates and soil aggregation.) Exactly why this happens is under some debate, but grazing can be thought of like pruning a tree – a small amount enhances growth, too much reduces growth or will modify the mix of species in the bacterial community.

Protozoa are also an important food source for other soil organisms and help to suppress disease by competing with or feeding on pathogens.

WHERE ARE PROTOZOA?
Protozoa need bacteria to eat and water in which to move, so moisture plays a big role in determining which types of protozoa will be present and active. Like bacteria, protozoa are particularly active in the rhizosphere next to roots.

Typical numbers of protozoa in soil vary widely – from a thousand per teaspoon in low fertility soils to a million per teaspoon in some highly fertile soils. Fungal-dominated soils (e.g. forests) tend to have more testate amoebae and ciliates than other types. In bacterial-dominated soils, flagellates and naked amoebae predominate. In general, high clay-content soils contain a higher number of smaller protozoa (flagellates and naked amoebae), while coarser textured soils contain more large flagellates, amoebae of both varieties, and ciliates.

NEMATODES AND PROTOZOA

 

[GrowingGreen]

then lets not underestimate the importance of a healthy population of protozoa in our soil another integral part of the web. They are excellent sources of creating plant available N

This will explain them better than I can.

Protozoa are single-celled animals that feed primarily on bacteria, but also eat other protozoa, soluble organic matter, and sometimes fungi. They are several times larger than bacteria – ranging from 1/5000 to 1/50 of an inch (5 to 500 µm) in diameter. As they eat bacteria, protozoa release excess nitrogen that can then be used by plants and other members of the food web.

Protozoa are classified into three groups based on their shape: Ciliates are the largest and move by means of hair-like cilia. They eat the other two types of protozoa, as well as bacteria. Amoebae also can be quite large and move by means of a temporary foot or “pseudopod.” Amoebae are further divided intotestate amoebae (which make a shell-like covering) and naked amoebae (without a covering).Flagellates are the smallest of the protozoa and use a few whip-like flagella to move.





Figure 1: Protozoa play an important role in nutrient cycling by feeding intensively on bacteria. Notice the size of the speck-like bacteria next to the oval protozoa and large, angular sand particle.
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University, Corvallis Figure 2: Bacteria ingested by an amoeba.
Credit: No. 35 from Soil Microbiology and Biochemistry Slide Set. 1976. J.P. Martin, et al., eds. SSSA, Madison, WI




Figure 3: Flagellates have one or two flagella which they use to propel or pull their way through soil. A flagellum can be seen extending from the protozoan on the left. The tiny specks are bacteria.
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University, Corvallis Figure 6: Ciliates are the largest of the protozoa and the least numerous. They consume up to ten thousand bacteria per day, and release plant available nitrogen. Ciliates use the fine cilia along their bodies like oars to move rapidly through soil.
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University, Corvallis
WHAT DO PROTOZOA DO?

​

Protozoa play an important role in mineralizing nutrients, making them available for use by plants and other soil organisms. Protozoa (and nematodes) have a lower concentration of nitrogen in their cells than the bacteria they eat. (The ratio of carbon to nitrogen for protozoa is 10:1 or much more and 3:1 to 10:1 for bacteria.) Bacteria eaten by protozoa contain too much nitrogen for the amount of carbon protozoa need. They release the excess nitrogen in the form of ammonium (NH4+). This usually occurs near the root system of a plant. Bacteria and other organisms rapidly take up most of the ammonium, but some is used by the plant. (See figure for explanation of mineralization and immobilzation.)

Another role that protozoa play is in regulating bacteria populations. When they graze on bacteria, protozoa stimulate growth of the bacterial population (and, in turn, decomposition rates and soil aggregation.) Exactly why this happens is under some debate, but grazing can be thought of like pruning a tree – a small amount enhances growth, too much reduces growth or will modify the mix of species in the bacterial community.

Protozoa are also an important food source for other soil organisms and help to suppress disease by competing with or feeding on pathogens.

WHERE ARE PROTOZOA?
Protozoa need bacteria to eat and water in which to move, so moisture plays a big role in determining which types of protozoa will be present and active. Like bacteria, protozoa are particularly active in the rhizosphere next to roots.

Typical numbers of protozoa in soil vary widely – from a thousand per teaspoon in low fertility soils to a million per teaspoon in some highly fertile soils. Fungal-dominated soils (e.g. forests) tend to have more testate amoebae and ciliates than other types. In bacterial-dominated soils, flagellates and naked amoebae predominate. In general, high clay-content soils contain a higher number of smaller protozoa (flagellates and naked amoebae), while coarser textured soils contain more large flagellates, amoebae of both varieties, and ciliates.

NEMATODES AND PROTOZOA

Thank brother for info, this is exactly what ive been studying on! The soil I'm using has woodchips init as well. that particular soil had been activating for 2 years now! What i did was mixed that soil with amendments in the first post from this journal, things should workout i grew 2 tester plants indoors recently , those plants did well!
Ecompost, reeferkief, Jumpincactus, thank you for your wisdom, feel free to comment anytime!

 

[Ecompost]

Most excellent information. It never ceases to amaze me how many growers/farmers think that whipping up some supersoil with all the amndements that they are good to go. As in fact, the soil food web is a lengthy process for the fungi and bacteria to do their work and mineralize the goodies we put in the container. I would venture that in a 60 day strain by harvest you haven't even really begun to tap into the goodies that you labored hard and long to put together. Not to mention the $$$$ wasted each grow cycle.

Agreed.
If people can work to the 24:1 ratio, they will see a result in time but this is only half the real story. The real trick is to time the inputs to degrade in sequence with pre set cyclical root exudates, these being fixed and plant initiated.
Its no good if your Kelp Meal releases all its Auxins in bloom, or for your crab meal to be ready after week 3 bloom, or your ACC-1 producing microbes to kick in just before harvest.
People who imagine organics is a simple process of slinging manure on the land are going end of life, along with this stupid ill considered approach that has failed us despite the above ground success offered by high Nitrate.
Advanced organics like those we deliver via BOX are nothing like this over simplification. Timing organic inputs to not only degrade within a total of 100 days from seed, but to degrade in line with the plants requirements at any one time is the true art. Synthetic growers whom imagine they have the most absorbing process are again flawed in this thought chain.
Nothing is more complex than soil, and you can add all the stuff up in medical and space research if you like. Soil is one of the most complex, and least understood systems us humans totally depend on. Our neglect of it, will be our undoing

 

[Ecompost]

:eyepiece:
I gave them all 2liters of fluids yesterday, that good to know bout Box, i just think its grower error for the purple stemming, she has since recovered, its been like a month 1/2 since that application, it could of been improper ph balance or something i dont do ph! All good tho doggy thank you. @TrubldBreeze, you were right :eyepiece:

if you can buddy, buy a decent moisture meter and in Organics, the trick is keep the media about 40-60% hydrated, and at about 25C lights on, 20-21 at off, this will maintain maximum mineralisation during the growth, I only usually drop the root temp out of this range when i want to force ripening late bloom

 

[Ecompost]

added, if you are struggling with P and grow in organics, raise the root zone temps. I have been know to use a heat matt under my pots when feeding P bottom up at 30c to boost my PSB activity. I always keep my P water on the warmer side 21c min, where as my Kelp for example, I add in cold. Warmer temps for non mobiles will really help, cooler temps will slow down mineralisation of heavy elements so we might get the sign of drama we can impact environmentally :-)

 

[GrowingGreen]

if you can buddy, buy a decent moisture meter and in Organics, the trick is keep the media about 40-60% hydrated, and at about 25C lights on, 20-21 at off, this will maintain maximum mineralisation during the growth, I only usually drop the root temp out of this range when i want to force ripening late bloom

Good to know glad i got those soakers in there, i get hot temps here 90-110 , I'll do my best to keep the moisture level correct, thats gonna be challenge!!

 

[Ecompost]

Good to know glad i got those soakers in there, i get hot temps here 90-110 , I'll do my best to keep the moisture level correct, thats gonna be challenge!!

yes, why we added some drought regulating microbes in Root better my friend :-) Glomus Deserticola

 

[GrowingGreen]

yes, why we added some drought regulating microbes in Root better my friend :) Glomus Deserticola

I was gonna order yesterday, but bomb og wrecked her car , had to go buy a new one, so hopefully gonna order BOX in a couple weeks
Chk my vid out @Ecompost,

 

[jumpincactus]

Agreed.
If people can work to the 24:1 ratio, they will see a result in time but this is only half the real story. The real trick is to time the inputs to degrade in sequence with pre set cyclical root exudates, these being fixed and plant initiated.
Its no good if your Kelp Meal releases all its Auxins in bloom, or for your crab meal to be ready after week 3 bloom, or your ACC-1 producing microbes to kick in just before harvest.
People who imagine organics is a simple process of slinging manure on the land are going end of life, along with this stupid ill considered approach that has failed us despite the above ground success offered by high Nitrate.
Advanced organics like those we deliver via BOX are nothing like this over simplification. Timing organic inputs to not only degrade within a total of 100 days from seed, but to degrade in line with the plants requirements at any one time is the true art. Synthetic growers whom imagine they have the most absorbing process are again flawed in this thought chain.
Nothing is more complex than soil, and you can add all the stuff up in medical and space research if you like. Soil is one of the most complex, and least understood systems us humans totally depend on. Our neglect of it, will be our undoing

Gawt dang @Ecompost you blow me away dude. I really connect with the science guy in you. Strikes a familar note man. I appreciate the level of knowledge you share with the group here. Especially in soil biology!!!! Keepn it real homeskillet!!!

 

[GrowingGreen]

@Ecompost
Forgot to post

 

[GrowingGreen]

Puttin the ladies outside

 

[GrowingGreen]

Got the baboo trellis started & cages in! Added more worms put down a thin layer of alfalfa hay, planted more covercrop in, hopefully they sprout if not I'll take the hay out

 

[MendoGiantZ]

whats the black stuff for above the plants?? to block the view from helicopters??