Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

  • Thread starter Chronic Monster
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Can you tell me how you figure out ppms of each element in a molecule? I havent been able to grasp that yet... Thanks Crysmatic.

I would like to know the formula to better understand what I am doing...


ALSO,,, given the description of Cl deficiency symptoms on that site, it is VERY possible that not having any Cl in my res affected the plants, and the symptoms I was seeing (brown tips, spotting etc) was a Cl deficiency and NOT a Ca deficeincy...

However, the photos of the plants with Ca deficinecy in the cannabis infirmary section looked EXACTLY like a Ca problem.

Hard to tell and hard to isolate in the MPB.. Im just trying to get to the finish line with them... It seems that not having any Cl is a bad thing, and adding more Ca is not so bad, so the CaCl2 is a good idea for a remedy.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
'Pickling Crisp'- sounds good! Fire it up!

Hey look what I found:





Theres your answer peeps.

Hey thanks brother! Now that's news I can use!

I may have mentioned above, Calcium Chloride is also known as 'pickling crisp', to do exactly that when canning pickles and tomatoes. It's also the main ingredient in non-salt driveway deicer, although that may have industrial byproducts or other impurities that may not be desirable for our uses.

Pickling crisp is available at the grocery store, looking in canning supplies.
 
desertsquirrel

desertsquirrel

1,177
83
mg/l is ppm.

makes dry nute calculations very easy. all you need to know is the percentages of element in the compound after oxidization.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
mg/l is ppm.

makes dry nute calculations very easy. all you need to know is the percentages of element in the compound after oxidization.

Can we walk through one?

CaCl2 for example.

Atomic Weight of Ca is 40.078
Atomic Weight of Cl is 35.453

Ca (40.078) + {Cl (35.453) (2)}

total weight: 110.983 grams = 1 mole.
1 gram = .0009 moles

1 gram of CaCl = .0009moles and therefore 1 mg would equal .0000009 moles.

(http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/reference/molar.html#Calculator)


Cl= 63.89%
Ca= 36.11%

Therefore, 1 mg of CaCl2 added to 1 liter of water would be 0.36 mg Ca and
0.64 mg Cl...

and .36mg/L = .36 ppm right DS?.... so to raise Ca by 100 ppm,
you would have to add 277 mg/L (100 divided by .36), or .277 grams /liter (move decimal to convert mg to g), rounded up to .28 grams /liter.


it should be .28 grams per liter... based on above calculations, right?

.28 grams per LITER (not gallon) to raise Ca by 100ppm. This would also add roughly twice as much Cl (200 ppm)

its actually about 1 gram per gallon to raise ppm by about 100 (98% cacl2 not pure). Thats pretty simple.


Does this look right to you guys?
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Here is what fatman sent me:

Hi,

Considering the calcium Chloride as pure due to its high percentage you would need 0.23127 ounces per 100 gallons of nutrient solution to raise the level of calcium 100 ppm. Or converting to grams you would need 28.35 grams per 100 gallons. 100 gallons equals 378.64 litres.

Hope that helps.

fatman


weird how he gets .28 grams / gal and I get .28 grams/ Liter.

Maybe a typo on his part, or I have no idea what I am doing... :hi
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
edit

interesting, if brief, article.

"Chloride Deficiency Symptoms
Too little chloride in plants can cause a variety of symptoms.

Chloride deficiency symptoms include:

Wilting due to a restricted and highly branched root system, often with stubby tips, and

Leaf mottling and leaflet blade tip wilting with chlorosis has also been observed. "

were you seeing any chloride deficiencies before adding ~100 ppm chloride? do you see any specific benefits now that you use it?

i'm curious why you're running ~1.25:1 Ca:N. any reasoning behind it? (unless you're running coco) fatman has stated the 'ideal' ratio 80-100% Ca:N.

0.14 g/usgal is 37 ppm, and since Ca is 36% of CaCl2, i figure you're only adding 13 ppm Ca (98% pure) and 23 ppm Cl-. how did you get 50 ppm Ca?

"So with a dose of jacks at 3.6g/gal and cal nit at 2.5 g/gal.. you get

N: 150
P: 50
K: 205
S: 60
Mg: 78
Ca 119"

also with calnit, i assume 15.5-0-0-19, @ 2.5 g/usgal is 660 ppm, of which Ca is 125 ppm. Ca is ~83% of N (125/150 give or take a few ppm). Mg is a Ca antagonist, so reducing Mg to ~60 ppm (50% of Ca) is similar to raising Ca (while affecting the fewest antagonisms). my .02

I have no idea what I am doing...
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
Here is what I am currently running after the stretch:

Hydro : 3 grams
CaNO3: 1.5 grams
Monster Bloom: .25 grams
MOST: .1 grams
Epsom (MgSO4) : 1 gram
CaCl: .14 grams

N: 101
P: 56
K: 187
Ca: 125
S: 104.7
Mg: 75
Cl: 75ish (i think)... my math may be off here. fatman told me that .28 grams of 98% cacl2 would raise Ca by 100 ppm in 1 gallon, so I am assuming based on molar mass, that Cl would go up by 156ppm... but Im no chemist and I may be wrong.

IN veg my formula would have 122ppm N and 150 ppm Ca. Mg would be 75 ppm, using 3 grams hydro, 2 grams CaNO3, .1 grams MOST, and .14 grams CaCl2, which is closer to the ratios you are talking about.

My reason for this is that I am pretty sure that in a weeks time, my plants were eating all the Ca I had in the res at 125ppm, leaving them hungry for more. I will not have this problem again, as I will be adding 25 ppm more Ca and foliar feeding with Ca as well. From what I understand it is VERY hard to over due it with Ca.

your analysis is bang on. I figure it by saying 0.28 g = 280 mg. ppm=mg/L. 280 mg/L is 280 ppm. Ca is 36% of CaCl2, so 0.36 * 280 = 101 ppm Ca. don't forget you're using 98% pure salt, so 0.98 * 101 = 99 ppm Ca. this is if the CaCl2 is completely anhydrous. if it's sat for a while and absorbed moisture, you won't be able to accurately calculate ppm.

you can find molar weights on wiki (and it will tell you if it's a water complex). you find elemental molar weight from a periodic table...it's the number underneath the symbol. eg. S = 32.065 g/mol

based on your recipe here's what i calculate: NPK in the first line, ppm in second line.

jack's pro 5-12-16
NPKMgS 41-42-175-51-67

calnit 15.5-0-0-19
NPKCa 61-0-0-75

monster bloom 0-50-30 aka MKP (it really helps to include npk so i don't have to search)
NPK 0-14-16

most - assume no macros, so skip

epsom
Mg 25.1 S 33.5

Calcium chloride
Ca 13.1 Cl 23.2

total
NPK 3-4-7
ppm
N 102
P 57
K 191
Ca 88
Mg 76
S 100
Cl 23

quite a bit off from 3-1-4, or snowblind's 3-2-4. imo, your Mg is way too high (and causing your Ca deficiency). imo, you can improve this formula by adding a little more CaCl2, and drop the epsom and MKP entirely. my proposed recipe, per gallon:

3g jack's pro
1.5g calnit
0.27g CaCl2

N 102
P 42
K 175
Ca 102
Mg 51
S 82
Cl 45

actual NPK 3-3-6. 100% Ca and 50% Mg, and a good amount of Cl.

imho this recipe will work very well, and it's simpler. we can call it the capulator formula, because i already have one ;)
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
Can we walk through one?

CaCl2 for example.

Atomic Weight of Ca is 40.078
Atomic Weight of Cl is 35.453

Ca (40.078) + {Cl (35.453) (2)}

total weight: 110.983 grams = 1 mole.
1 gram = .0009 moles

1 gram of CaCl = .0009moles and therefore 1 mg would equal .0000009 moles.

(http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/reference/molar.html#Calculator)


Cl= 63.89%
Ca= 36.11%

Therefore, 1 mg of CaCl2 added to 1 liter of water would be 0.36 mg Ca and
0.64 mg Cl...

and .36mg/L = .36 ppm right DS?.... so to raise Ca by 100 ppm,
you would have to add 277 mg/L (100 divided by .36), or .277 grams /liter (move decimal to convert mg to g), rounded up to .28 grams /liter.


it should be .28 grams per liter... based on above calculations, right?

.28 grams per LITER (not gallon) to raise Ca by 100ppm. This would also add roughly twice as much Cl (200 ppm)

its actually about 1 gram per gallon to raise ppm by about 100 (98% cacl2 not pure). Thats pretty simple.


Does this look right to you guys?

0.23127 oz =/= 28.35 g. and a us gal is still 3.7854 L (small typo).

100 ppm Ca
98% pure > 100/.98 = 102 ppm or mg/L
mass of CaCl2 > 102 mg / 0.361 = 282.7 mg or 0.283 g/L

he should have said 28.3 g (roughly an oz) per 100 L. you get the gold star, and fatman gets to wear a helmet :)

fatman diy is still a great thread to learn this stuff. the u of m link with the ppm tutorial is broken. it's been covered pretty well, but here's another.

solute is the stuff being dissolved - in our case salts.
solvent is the thing doing the dissolving - water aka aqueous.
solution is water that has solute dissolved in it.

note that units are multiplied and divided, just like numbers. i.e. L ÷ L = 1
mg/L x L = mg
mg/g x g = mg
this is a quick check to make sure you're following the correct order of operations. if you do a unit check, and you get mg squared, you've done something wrong.

1 L of an aqueous potassium oxide solution contains 0.5 g K2O.
Calculate the concentration of K2O in parts per million (ppm).

ppm = mass solute (mg) ÷ volume solution (L)

what we know:
mass K2O = 0.5 g x 1000 mg/g = 500 mg
volume solution = 1 L
ppm = ???

solve for ppm

concentration of K2O = 500 mg ÷ 1 L = 500 mg/L = 500 ppm of K2O

if we want to know the mass proportion of K in K2O, we refer to wiki and/or a periodic table of elements.

molar mass for
K = 39.0983 g/mol
O = 15.9994 g/mol

a chemical equation always has the number of atoms represented by a digit in the subscript. no subscript implicitly means one atom. hence K2O has two potassium, and one oxygen.

K x 2 + O
= 39.0983 x 2 + 15.9994
= 94.196 g/mol of K2O

mass percent of K
mass of K ÷ mass of K2O
39.0983 ÷ 94.196
= 0.8301
K makes up 83% of K2O

concentration of K2O in solution = 500 ppm of K2O

concentration of K
500 ppm K2O x 83% K/K2O = 415.1 ppm K
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we can rearrange the equation to solve for different variables given different known quantities:

ppm = mass solute (mg) ÷ volume solution (L)
volume solution (L) = mass solute (mg) ÷ ppm
mass solute (mg) = ppm x volume solution (L)

e.g. what mass of K2O (in g) do we need if we have 1 L aqueous solution of of 100 ppm K?

we know:
ppm of element = 100 ppm
mass proportion of K to K2O = 0.83
volume of solution = 1L
solve for mass of K2O

100 ppm K = 100 mg/L K
mass solute (mg) = ppm x volume solution (L)
mass K = 100 mg/L x 1 L = 100 mg

mass of K2O
100 mg K ÷ 0.83 K/K2O = 120.5 mg K2O
120.5 mg x 1 g ÷ 1000 mg = 0.12 g K2O
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
your analysis is bang on. I figure it by saying 0.28 g = 280 mg. ppm=mg/L. 280 mg/L is 280 ppm. Ca is 36% of CaCl2, so 0.36 * 280 = 101 ppm Ca. don't forget you're using 98% pure salt, so 0.98 * 101 = 99 ppm Ca. this is if the CaCl2 is completely anhydrous. if it's sat for a while and absorbed moisture, you won't be able to accurately calculate ppm.

you can find molar weights on wiki (and it will tell you if it's a water complex). you find elemental molar weight from a periodic table...it's the number underneath the symbol. eg. S = 32.065 g/mol

based on your recipe here's what i calculate: NPK in the first line, ppm in second line.

jack's pro 5-12-16
NPKMgS 41-42-175-51-67

calnit 15.5-0-0-19
NPKCa 61-0-0-75

monster bloom 0-50-30 aka MKP (it really helps to include npk so i don't have to search)
NPK 0-14-16

most - assume no macros, so skip

epsom
Mg 25.1 S 33.5

Calcium chloride
Ca 13.1 Cl 23.2

total
NPK 3-4-7
ppm
N 102
P 57
K 191
Ca 88
Mg 76
S 100
Cl 23

quite a bit off from 3-1-4, or snowblind's 3-2-4. imo, your Mg is way too high (and causing your Ca deficiency). imo, you can improve this formula by adding a little more CaCl2, and drop the epsom and MKP entirely. my proposed recipe, per gallon:

3g jack's pro
1.5g calnit
0.27g CaCl2

N 102
P 42
K 175
Ca 102
Mg 51
S 82
Cl 45

actual NPK 3-3-6. 100% Ca and 50% Mg, and a good amount of Cl.

imho this recipe will work very well, and it's simpler. we can call it the capulator formula, because i already have one ;)

Good info Crysmatic. I was only using monster bloom to use up the little bit that I had left. I figured it would get me close to 2-1-4... and bump the P to 60 for a little P boost week 6. How do you get 3-3-6? Wouldnt the elemental ppm ratios be 2.4-1-4.16, and not 1-1-2 (3-3-6)?

Also, when I plug in to the calculator I get:

N: 101
P:41
K:171
Ca: 71 (plus .29 g CaCl2) = 100
Mg: 50
S: 69


I wonder why our number for S is so different, especially considering I dont think you added in that MOST is 13% S...
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
Good info Crysmatic. I was only using monster bloom to use up the little bit that I had left. I figured it would get me close to 2-1-4... and bump the P to 60 for a little P boost week 6. How do you get 3-3-6? Wouldnt the elemental ppm ratios be 2.4-1-4.16, and not 1-1-2 (3-3-6)?

Also, when I plug in to the calculator I get:

N: 101
P:41
K:171
Ca: 71 (plus .29 g CaCl2) = 100
Mg: 50
S: 69


I wonder why our number for S is so different, especially considering I dont think you added in that MOST is 13% S...

sorry, i copied the wrong ppm. i get 67 S, which brings them all within a ppm or two of yours (rounding errors).

i guess i'm not explaining npk ratios very well. forget ppm for a moment. jack's pro NPK is 5-12-26...yours, comparing apples to apples, is 9-12-23. the ratios we're looking for are N-P2O5-K2O...not elemental. NPK is the ratios we plug into the guaranteed analysis page. your ppm analysis is 102-57-191, and your NPK is 3.0-3.85-6.77. i calculated each part by hand, but i used cannastats to figure out the overall ratio. plug it into cannastats, and use 12.85 grams per us gallon to see what I mean.

if you look at a 10-10-10 npk (we're talking % by weight N-P2O5-K2O, which is what is on every label of fertilizer), a 1L solution with 1 g gives 1000 ppm.

N is 10% = 100 ppm
P2O5 is 10% = 100 ppm
K2O is 10% = 100 ppm

by element:
N is 100 ppm
P is 44 ppm
K is 83 ppm

this is still called a 10-10-10. this is NOT a 10-4.4-8.3 or 2.3-1-1.9.

so when you say you want 2-1-4, your elemental ppm should be 100-22-166. if you want 100-50-200, it is 2-2.29-4.82 (virtually botanicare cns17). an NPK of 3-1-4 gives an elemental breakdown of 150-22-166.

has that answered your question? because i can do the calcs in all my head now :)
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Crysmatic,

I hate to say this but I learned that it was the elemental ppm ratios that were critical, and not the percentage ratios.

I am getting almost all of my info from 2 threads I read at ICmag,,, one of which was mainly led by yosemite sam, spurr, Desert Squirrel, and Fatman, all of whom I give the benefit of the doubt.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I sure would like an explanation at this point, because yoru implication woudl make all of my underdtanding null and void..

Jacks formula is a 3-1-4 ratio (elemental ppm), which is what everyone says is pretty much ideal.. that is why jacks is successful... no?

Many also talk about 3-1-4-2-1... N-P-K-Ca-Mg. also elemental ppm...or so I think..


I found this link that may shed a little light on the subject in general:

http://www.cocoponics.co/hydroponics/nature-of-hydroponics-nutrients


EDIT: I feel stupid because your percentage ratios are the same as the elemental ones.... I was so used to seeing the elemental that I didnt put 2 and 2 together. My bad.
 
organicness

organicness

194
28
So I'm totally confused on why this is happening. It's to do with the calculator from canna stats. I put in the Jacks blossom booster which is 10-30-20, and the calculator is showing me that I'd have more potassium than phosphorus. No idea why that's happening, and now Im wondering if I have to worry about the rest of the calculations I'd been making being wrong. Any insight?

Thanks!
 
GA
Solution mix
OneStonedPony

OneStonedPony

44
18
I just read through most of this thread. I see one common theme, lots of disagreement on formulas and mixing doses. I'm too lazy and mathmatically challenged to do it the cheap way. Either that, or I think the landlord might get suspicious if the UPS truck started dropping off 25 pound bags of anything at my apartment. BMO from a bottle for me. Not killing my high priced genetics, and the low profile shipping, is well worth the little extra I may be paying for my liquids, over dry, bulk ferts. Peace.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
'I'm too lazy and mathmatically challenged to do it the cheap way.'

I just read through most of this thread. I see one common theme, lots of disagreement on formulas and mixing doses. I'm too lazy and mathmatically challenged to do it the cheap way. Either that, or I think the landlord might get suspicious if the UPS truck started dropping off 25 pound bags of anything at my apartment. BMO from a bottle for me. Not killing my high priced genetics, and the low profile shipping, is well worth the little extra I may be paying for my liquids, over dry, bulk ferts. Peace.

It's your money. I just have better things to spend that several hundred dollars a crop on. By the way, the trip to the wholesaler where Igot my ferts was enlightening and educational in its own right. And now that I have my 25 lb bag of dry nutes, I'm in no need to go to the hydro store all the time and bring home bottles of *obvious* growing paraphernalia.

The discussion and debate about formulas and usage profiles here are for those who want to optimize their grows and need all the details. For the rest of us- and yes, that includes me- using these with a relatively simple nutrient schedule still works very well indeed. Just ask, any of us will be happy to share ours with you!
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
So I'm totally confused on why this is happening. It's to do with the calculator from canna stats. I put in the Jacks blossom booster which is 10-30-20, and the calculator is showing me that I'd have more potassium than phosphorus. No idea why that's happening, and now Im wondering if I have to worry about the rest of the calculations I'd been making being wrong. Any insight?

Thanks!

Its right O.

To convert from compounds to elements:

P = P2O5 X 0.44
K = K2O X 0.83

the 30% P205 is actually 13.2% ELEMENTAL P
the 20 K2O is actually 16.6% ELEMENTAL K

So there is more availabale K that P in that mix (once you remove the oxygen from the compound).

You need more K than P during all stages.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
It's your money. I just have better things to spend that several hundred dollars a crop on. By the way, the trip to the wholesaler where Igot my ferts was enlightening and educational in its own right. And now that I have my 25 lb bag of dry nutes, I'm in no need to go to the hydro store all the time and bring home bottles of *obvious* growing paraphernalia.

The discussion and debate about formulas and usage profiles here are for those who want to optimize their grows and need all the details. For the rest of us- and yes, that includes me- using these with a relatively simple nutrient schedule still works very well indeed. Just ask, any of us will be happy to share ours with you!



YYYEEEEUUUUUPP!!!!

Im just tweaking my formula to experiment. Jacks out of the bag at their recommended dose, and diluted to desired ppms (coco/rockwool runs hotter than UC or MPB) works great. It is also WAY cheaper than the fancy pants nutes.

I have also started using CaCl2 to add some Cl and boost Ca, especially in flowering after stretch when I drop the N to 2:1:4 instead of 3:1:4.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
YYYEEEEUUUUUPP!!!!

Im just tweaking my formula to experiment. Jacks out of the bag at their recommended dose, and diluted to desired ppms (coco/rockwool runs hotter than UC or MPB) works great. It is also WAY cheaper than the fancy pants nutes.

I have also started using CaCl2 to add some Cl and boost Ca, especially in flowering after stretch when I drop the N to 2:1:4 instead of 3:1:4.

Okay, so I recently got your flower formula as; (all per gallon)
3.0g Jacks
1.5g Cal-Ni
.25g 'monster bloom', I'd like to know what's in that
0.1g MOST
1.0g Epsom salt, aka magnesium sulfate
.14g calcium chloride (pickling crisp at the grocery store)

I'm not using the bloom booster until I know what its composed of- so I can use what I have around here- and I don't have any MOST. Everything else is in my RDWC right now and I have some yellowing leaves, like not enough nitrogen. Not sure if at 2 weeks into flower I should still add N?

Since this likely started before flower, I'm curious; what is your veg. formula?
 
organicness

organicness

194
28
Its right O.

To convert from compounds to elements:

P = P2O5 X 0.44
K = K2O X 0.83

the 30% P205 is actually 13.2% ELEMENTAL P
the 20 K2O is actually 16.6% ELEMENTAL K

So there is more availabale K that P in that mix (once you remove the oxygen from the compound).

You need more K than P during all stages.

Ahhhh, ok. That makes sense then. PHEW! I was freakin' out thinking all of my calculations had been messed up. I'm just now starting to see some wicked, and I mean wicked, calcium deficiencies. Headed out to the hardware store for some pickle crisp to tide me over.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Ahhhh, ok. That makes sense then. PHEW! I was freakin' out thinking all of my calculations had been messed up. I'm just now starting to see some wicked, and I mean wicked, calcium deficiencies. Headed out to the hardware store for some pickle crisp to tide me over.

What kind of systen are you running? What is your media?

In my drain to waste coco I never got any deficiencies running a normal regimine. It was only in the RDWC that I got Ca problems.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Okay, so I recently got your flower formula as; (all per gallon)
3.0g Jacks
1.5g Cal-Ni
.25g 'monster bloom', I'd like to know what's in that
0.1g MOST
1.0g Epsom salt, aka magnesium sulfate
.14g calcium chloride (pickling crisp at the grocery store)

I'm not using the bloom booster until I know what its composed of- so I can use what I have around here- and I don't have any MOST. Everything else is in my RDWC right now and I have some yellowing leaves, like not enough nitrogen. Not sure if at 2 weeks into flower I should still add N?

Since this likely started before flower, I'm curious; what is your veg. formula?

Veg was the standard jacks at 80%. 2.8 grams hydro, 2.0 grams CaNO3, 1 gram epsom.

I think that I ran my RDWC a little too hot. I went up to like 2.4 EC and I think that was too much without the extra Ca. I backed off this week down to about 1.4 EC using:

2.4 grams hydro
1.2 grams CaNO3
.23 grams CaCl2
.1 grams MOST

NO epsom. This puts my Mg:Ca ratio at 1:2... which according to crysmatic is good.

Still learning here, and probably shouldn't be experimenting with the MPB... but fuck it. :banana1sv6:

I do like the idea of adding the CaCl2, and I will proably continue to do that as long as I run a sterile res. I am not sure how the Cl would react with bennies... (even though it is in tap water).

My raw salts shodul be here this week, then I can really start playing around.
 
Top Bottom