Plants stall when put into the UC

[woodsmaneh]

Well I have been at this for a while now and the only part I hated was moving my veg plants into the UC. As soon as I did that I got zero growth for weeks. Very frustrating to say the least. I use RO water and Canna nutrients with Advanced BB and OD. Just about every start was the same for me. When I first came here they put the fear of god into me about using cal-mag, to much is the kiss of death, don't use it bla bla. So after reading and re-reading this is what I came up with.

Most of the better nutrients are buffered to help maintain Ph in water. The buffering does not work in RO water you need to mix 1/2 and 1/2 as per manufacturer instruction. Canna recommends .2 to .4 ppm in your water to work right. So because there is nothing in the RO water Ph is hard to manage and there is also zero value in your RO water. So this time around I added 2ml per L of cal-mag and both of my stalled systems have taken off big time. In fact this is the first time I have had to worry about roots plugging my system. Very big difference. So now I do use Cal-mag and my plants are not stalling. I use the cal mag with my regular nutrients. Boy it is amazing what a little cal-mag can do.

 

[Texas Kid]

Do you overlap your veg regime a week into flower before doing a complete flower mix?

its alot easier if your veggin in the UC but if not you can setup the exact same mix in your UC as your veg setup, get thru the transition for about 5-7 days and then got to a full water change and nute for flower....

when i veg in the UC I will run the veg mix thru week 1 of flower and then stack a light flower nute mix on top till week three and the flusha nd fill with a full on flower mix

I still get a couple days hickup no matter what when I move plants from one setup to another, especially at the transition, it compounds issues

 

[johnnyrex]

I also have the problem every single time I move my girls into the UC stall nothing nada. I takes about 2.5 weeks to start seeing explosive growth. With this run currently I had better results I added .5ml cal-mag to my tap water which consists of 60ppm and had explosive results in 5 days with my veg nutes for 1 week and the next week I added 1/2 strength veg nute and 1/2 strength flower nutes that I or at least think I achieved these results I will not know until my next run to make sure it's accurate

 

[gimp73]

Well I have been at this for a while now and the only part I hated was moving my veg plants into the UC. As soon as I did that I got zero growth for weeks. Very frustrating to say the least. I use RO water and Canna nutrients with Advanced BB and OD. Just about every start was the same for me. When I first came here they put the fear of god into me about using cal-mag, to much is the kiss of death, don't use it bla bla. So after reading and re-reading this is what I came up with.

Most of the better nutrients are buffered to help maintain Ph in water. The buffering does not work in RO water you need to mix 1/2 and 1/2 as per manufacturer instruction. Canna recommends .2 to .4 ppm in your water to work right. So because there is nothing in the RO water Ph is hard to manage and there is also zero value in your RO water. So this time around I added 2ml per L of cal-mag and both of my stalled systems have taken off big time. In fact this is the first time I have had to worry about roots plugging my system. Very big difference. So now I do use Cal-mag and my plants are not stalling. I use the cal mag with my regular nutrients. Boy it is amazing what a little cal-mag can do.

2ml per l or per gallon? I have been using it at 2ml per gallon with ro

 

[Greeneye04]

I to seem to b fighting the exact same problem... Still can't seem to get the cal mag ratios just right. I've tried from 1ml -4 ml per gallon...I've had plants that didn't do anything in the uc till Cal mag was added and I've had plants stall out from to much cal mag,.. It really does seem to b a fine line to get it right...once they start taking off it always smooth sailing its just getting them to that point

 

[woodsmaneh]

I do the same as TK, I run veg nutrients for the first week of flower. I use Cal mag at a rate of 2 ml per liter and that has made all the difference to my plants. In fact if this was the missing step it's all smooth growing from now on.

I have struggled with stalled plants from day one, almost 2 years now. I have 3 UC systems so I have replicated the results with a second set of plants that stalled for 2 weeks also. They have turned around and are growing like crazy also. Just got to give them what they needed. I have to say this may be the missing link for me and my UC's. Now my problem is massive root growth filling my buckets, but that's better than the other way around. I may move them to my Jumbo system so they have more root room.

Just to point out this is all with RO water and the fact that there is zero micro nutrients in the RO water. This also explains why Ph swing can be a problem when using RO. I have been on sites for 6 years now and never read about issues with RO, micro Nutrients and Ph buffering. Learn new stuff all the time that's why I hang out and do ton's of research, I want the biggest plants in the world growing in my warehouse, LOL

 

[woodsmaneh]

These plants were all very sick 3 weeks ago and than I added 2ml per liter Cal-mag and they look great now. Lights off pix. The second pix is another set of plants that stalled and I added the cal-mag 10 days ago and they are coming back.

 

[HydroRocks]

VERY Nice work Woodsmaneh!! Plants are looking good!

Fought some of the same exact issues as well. Cal/Mag is for sure a critical part of the equation.

Found solutions to the dreaded "stall" when transplanting into the UC system by switching up to a better suited nutrient system which was a key part (for us anyhow) in eliminating some of these issues that some people commonly experienced when using RO water in the UC system like ph stability, ect.

So far, Veg+Bloom, a one part complete powder nutrient has been the best nutrient or at least in the top 3 of the best that has been tested in the UC system so far.....been testing different nutrients extensively in the UC system for the past few years now. Veg+Bloom is one of the few formulas that has plenty of everything in it to support excellent plant growth and health. It covers all bases, even down to a "drip clean" type ingredient, and is SUPER ph stable.

The best results to date from the testing done here using RO water (0PPM - 7.0pH) are from nutrient systems that have very little to no ammonia in the formula (i.e. amoniacal nitrogen, ect.). There are not many "hydroponic" nutrient formulas IMVHO that are really made for hydroponics, specifically deep water culture systems like the UC as most of the ones tested had to many organic compounds in them and does not work well when a "sterile" approach is attempted.

The modification of a bio-filter can help the UC system support living biology (microbes) to do all the conversions of organic compounds found in the nutrient formula, but if your running "sterile" then it is better to use a nutrient containing no or very little organic ingredients.

FYI- Veg+Bloom offers a custom "Ammonia Free" formula that is formulated for use in deep water culture systems.

A 2 part nutrient called "Shiva" made by Crop Nutrients also has a ammonia free formula and is complete as well and will require no addition of cal/mag or pk booster, ect.....and was one that really stood out from all the others tested.

Granted, both of these nutrients can be a bit pricey, but if you do the math and eliminate the cost of root inoculates, wetting/cleaning agents and pk boosters and the slew of other additives out there that you will not need to buy anymore and are already included in the base nutrients, it is very affordable IMVHO.

Also when you factor in the ease of use, and the LESS time that will be spent working or maintaining the system, that makes them priceless in my book. I can recall having to take apart and scrub and sterilize every inch of the UC system back in the day....and using TONS of water trying to clean and flush the system between grow cycles, it was a huge task.

Using these "clean" formulas these days that do not ever separate out or cause a "slime" or sludge" buildup inside the pipe walls and plant containers, a simple drain and refill is all that is needed. I now use a little toothbrush to scrub off the uniseals every once in a while......LOL!!

Be Well
HR



.

 

[UCMENOW]

IMVHO, stalling is more often a result of one of 3 things:

1) Plants being moved from lower light concentrations into high light levels abruptly. This move not only spikes light levels, it increases plant transpiration necessity which necessitates increased water uptake.Often, lower RH is also associated with this move into higher light concentrations, exasperating the issue.

2) Nute concentration being too high. Where this really gets compounded is when the conditions stated in (#1), which necessitate more water uptake occur. EC/TDS being too high hinders water uptake which can cripple a plant during this transition. This is typically what causes the lag as the plants struggle to rehydrate, which rehabilitates the plants disabled vascular system (which typically collapses during dehydration) and spurs plants to grow again.

And important side note: When plants are unable to uptake water (nute solution) they are also having access to dissolved minerals interrupted. This is what contributes to the plants exhibiting deficiencies along with the dull leaf texture associated with dehydration.

LIMITED WATER AVAILABILITY AND ACCESS TO DISSOLVED MINERALS REDUCES, IF NOT STOPS PHOTOSYNTHESIS...CAUSING THE PERCEIVED STALL.

LIGHT+WATER+MINERALS=PHOTOSYNTHESIS.

3) Simply having the water level too low. This is a more mechanical means of dehydrating the plants, but just as detrimental. This will ultimately produce the same issues as (#2) but with no hope of recovery until plants manage to eak out a root down into the solution.

Moral of the story:

Reduce your light levels and EC/TDS and increase your solution depth during transplant to ensure a well hydrated plant first. Once adapted you can begin increasing both as now plants are functioning properly and ready for blast off!

Viva la UC!

 

[Capulator]

IMVHO, stalling is more often a result of one of 3 things:

1) Plants being moved from lower light concentrations into high light levels abruptly. This move not only spikes light levels, it increases plant transpiration necessity which necessitates increased water uptake.Often, lower RH is also associated with this move into higher light concentrations, exasperating the issue.

2) Nute concentration being too high. Where this really gets compounded is when the conditions stated in (#1), which necessitate more water uptake occur. EC/TDS being too high hinders water uptake which can cripple a plant during this transition. This is typically what causes the lag as the plants struggle to rehydrate, which rehabilitates the plants disabled vascular system (which typically collapses during dehydration) and spurs plants to grow again.

And important side note: When plants are unable to uptake water (nute solution) they are also having access to dissolved minerals interrupted. This is what contributes to the plants exhibiting deficiencies along with the dull leaf texture associated with dehydration.

LIMITED WATER AVAILABILITY AND ACCESS TO DISSOLVED MINERALS REDUCES, IF NOT STOPS PHOTOSYNTHESIS...CAUSING THE PERCEIVED STALL.

LIGHT+WATER+MINERALS=PHOTOSYNTHESIS.

3) Simply having the water level too low. This is a more mechanical means of dehydrating the plants, but just as detrimental. This will ultimately produce the same issues as (#2) but with no hope of recovery until plants manage to eak out a root down into the solution.

Moral of the story:

Reduce your light levels and EC/TDS and increase your solution depth during transplant to ensure a well hydrated plant first. Once adapted you can begin increasing both as now plants are functioning properly and ready for blast off!

Viva la UC!

If you pump the RH up to 60 upon transfer they do much much better. Problem with most rooms like these is you are running a lot of light and a lot of AC. That is pulling moisture from the air.

The plants aren't big enough to transpire enough moisture so there is no balance and the plants kind of shock out. I suggest all the things above, and raising RH with a good commercial humidifier. mainlandmart.com is a good spot to get one.

 

[UCMENOW]

Looks like CC Recommends 75% RH for week one based on this chart, progressing downward from there. New catalogs on the home page of their site, pretty tasty if I do say so.

This is what the text at the bottom of the recs page says too.


Room Considerations: The Under Current™ is a high performance hydroponics system and should be complimented by a high performance growing environment. To get the best results, all aspects of the grow space should be optimized including: day and night temperatures, humidity, light levels, CO2 and air movement.

Optimal Water Temps:Using a water chiller to maintain water temps between 65-68° will allow for the highest levels of dissolved oxygen and discourage proliferation of harmful bacteria to ensure explosive root growth. Cooler water temps in the system will also act as a heat sink in your grow space and allow for slightly warmer room temps required for full CO2absorption.

Water Levels: Water levels should be maintained fairly high throughout the growth and bloom cycle encouraging dense lateral root growth from the net pot. In the later parts of bloom and as roots fill the Growth Module, water levels can be incrementally adjusted down exposing more of the root mass. Creating drought like conditions in late bloom helps hasten flower formation and essential oil production.

Top-Off Reservoir:Using a top-off reservoir will allow you to maintain consistent water levels and follow weekly feeding schedules without dumping valuable nutrient solution. When optimized, a top-off reservoir can be used like a doser for incremental EC/ppm adjustments and pH steering.

Adjusting pH & EC/ppm:Adding concentrated pH adjusters or nutrients directly to the system may result in extreme plant/root shock. Anything added directly to the system should be diluted to at least 20% and added slowly. For best results pH and EC/ppm adjustments should be done through the top-off reservoir.

Nutrient Considerations: Highly chelated, clean, synthetic nutrients such as our Cultured Solutions™ line have proven to work best in water culture both for their pH stability and ability to stay viable in solution for longer periods. Adding organics, sugars, bacteria, and zyme products have shown to create potentially harmful biofilms, hinder pH stability and require more frequent nutrient change outs.

Nutrient Strength:If not using Cultured Solutions™, we typically recommend starting between ¼ and ½ strength of standard nutrient recommendations. When starting with rooted cuttings transplant into the system at 0.3 EC or 200ppm and increase 10-20% per week based on plant performance. **When supercharging aeration levels nutrients should be reduced even further.

Nutrient Change Outs: When plants are feeding and growing normally, full nutrient change outs are beneficial every 14-21 days. If pH levels become unstable or nutrient levels start to rise or stagnate this may be a good indication to do a full or partial change out. When using more complex nutrient recipes or heavy organic inputs more frequent (every 7-10 days) nutrient change outs may be necessary.

Cleaning the System: Cleaning the system between runs is an important step to ensure harmful mineral buildups and biofilms are removed before restarting. Fill the system with plain water and a cleaning solution such as bleach. Cycle the system for 24hrs, scrub the modules and bottle brush the joints and manifolds. Thoroughly rinse the system and any debris, allow to completely dry before filling to start a new cycle.

 

[Greeneye04]

woodsman do u have pics of the plants before u started adding the cal mag.. im suffering from similiar issues now. I started my plants on 12/12/12. they adjusted right away and were doing great the first 10 days or so and have been stalled out since.. ive ran calmag from .5 ml to 2ml per gallon. also using ionic grow and uc roots...ro water.. just did another change out with tap water @70 ppm ,.5 ml /gal cal mag and 2 ml/gal ionic grow. 2ml uc roots.. comes out to 180 ppm 700 scale.. cant seem to get them to snap out of this... gonna see what that does...theyre drinking and ph has been rising since day one.. so frustrating .....also running a sealed room so all other parameters are dialed in..

 

[johnnyrex]

woodsman do u have pics of the plants before u started adding the cal mag.. im suffering from similiar issues now. I started my plants on 12/12/12. they adjusted right away and were doing great the first 10 days or so and have been stalled out since.. ive ran calmag from .5 ml to 2ml per gallon. also using ionic grow and uc roots...ro water.. just did another change out with tap water @70 ppm ,.5 ml /gal cal mag and 2 ml/gal ionic grow. 2ml uc roots.. comes out to 180 ppm 700 scale.. cant seem to get them to snap out of this... gonna see what that does...theyre drinking and ph has been rising since day one.. so frustrating .....also running a sealed room so all other parameters are dialed in..

Hey greeneye4 I had the same issue and I notice also that when my RH is not above 60% they also stall and look droopy even with cal-mag and very low ppm my tap also comes out at 50-70ppm try getting your RH higher. If its even at 45-50% is still not good enough

 

[woodsmaneh]

I have been preaching about RH since I came here. VPD is important and my RH is always around 60 to 70% except the last 10 days I let it go where ever it wants.

All good points ^^^^^ guys thanks for jumping in that way we cover it all.

FYI I was over at the Canna site and they have a great paper on hydroponics called Aqua Infopaper you need to join the site but it's free and every month send they send you an interesting video on growing. They put them up on their site. Lots of great stuff there.

I'll have a look around but I don't take many pix of fail growing, if you know what I mean LOL.

 

[Greeneye04]

Woodsman I was hoping u would post yours so I dont have to post mine...LOL" My Rh is good , low of 58 high of 71 according to my sentinel which I reset daily ....65 % is what its set at now....since doing a res change 2 days ago w/ tap water and cal/mag, base. ..... instead of ro and nutes they r looking a bit better but to early to b optimistic! I also unplugged 2 lights out of 6 till they recover...

 

[woodsmaneh]

I am going to try mixing my water 1/2 and 1/2 both well and ro and add the cal'mag on my next res change next week. Will see what happens, if I'm right than my PH should be more stable also. Ph has not really been an issue with me but if all the research is right it should stay in the right rang longer.

The other thing about this working is they are drinking about a gallon a day each, I filled my 50gal res 4 days ago and I need to fill it today. Wow now I'm seeing some of the real good growth in the roots also, buckets are full and I am on week 2 of flower. They got 6 weeks to go and I don't think there is room in the buckets to support that?

 

[tipper619sd]

awesome info just what i needed for my next grow. Gonna work on getting my rh up to 70 and follow CS to a tee and see what happens

 

[Greeneye04]

Since doing a res Change weds with tap instead of ro... .5ml of cal and some base total ppm 180... Plants r greening up and bouncing back... Did another res change yesterday since they drank down to 120 ppm.... Running tap water again w/ 1 ml of cal mag p/gal also got my cs nutrients in as well so running cs. Veg a & b at 1ml per gal instead of ionic now... 2/ ml uc roots total ppm 220... Today plants look even better than yesterday.. Hopefully things r on the up and up....seems the ro water may have been a major factor in my problems.. There loving the tap water @70 ppm and ph is much more stable ... I was adjusting ph every other day... I didn't have to ph the last 4 days with tap

 

[woodsmaneh]

Another happy camper, My other plants are looking stellar so on ward and up ward fellow green growers. Dame and only took me 2 years to figger it out. :cool:

 

[Quantum9]

greeneye added .5 ml per gallon, your recommending 3.75 ml per gallon.....

not really an example of how your application rate is "working," seeing as how your reccomending 7-8 times what he used.

Btw that much cal-mag is more nutrients then i use for the first 2 weeks total. (which is just CS veg A and b of course).

Talking about cal-mag application rates w/o discussing the larger nutrient profile that it fits within leaves no frame of reference for understanding how much actual ca, mg or n we are talking about.

3.75 ml of cal-mag plus (?) mls of CS, GH, AN, Jacks, etc are all going to be different.