Timber? Platinum? Looking For Led Help (for Aquaponics Setup)

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jcl123

jcl123

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Hello all,

I have been reading over your forum for a couple days here, and it really looks like you guys are on to something and have some great expertise, so I am hoping you can help me out.

Even though what I am asking is not for growing cannabis, they just legalized it here in Massachusetts, so I am learning about that a bit at the same time!

What brought me here is I am setting up an aquarium, and trying out some new methods that use seaweed (macro algae) to filter the water by exposing it to high intensity light and fast moving water (high CO2, etc.). I won't bore you with the specifics unless you are really interested.

Kessil
Some of my fellow hobbyists in the aquarium forums are fooling around with lights from Home Depot or cheap $20 LED grow lights. Then they started using lights like these:

Which I am sure you guys here will laugh at, because even I see that while well made, they are quite overpriced for what you get. People use them because Kessil also makes some nice lights for aquariums (me included), so it is a brand they trust.

Platinum LED
OK, then I started seeing a few people looking at the powerful cannabis grow lights, some of the one's made by Mars Hydro, Viparspecta, and I myself was looking at the Platinum LEDs, some of the brands I have seen mentioned here.

While people would get results with these, reading these forums confirmed what I suspected, that most of these are cheap Chinese deals, which will work but may not last.

COBs
But then I also see that you guys feel that these COB based LED's you talk about are the next generation even compared to the high-quality "blurple" generation of LEDs. This is what really got my attention. (I didn't even know what they were / that they were a thing until I found this forum)

I was all sold on the Platinum LED (and others) marketing a spectrum that includes IR and UV, but now I don't know how important that actually is.

Here is some info:
- The area I am lighting is only 22" x 15.5" and a water depth of about 12"
- The light would hang from between 6" and 18" above the water
- There is polycarbonate between, so the light would not be directly exposed

So, I was looking at getting either the Platinum LED P150 or P300, the 450 is getting too large. I am not sure, but I think I only need veg mode, but I guess if I go with something full spectrum instead that will be irrelevant, maybe just have to worry about color temp.

Reading some of the posts here, seems like allot of people like the these Timber LEDs. I think if I were to go that route, I would get this one: http://timbergrowlights.com/model-2vl/
Or perhaps one of the kits, I am fine with some DIY more or less, I can go either way.
But then I see some others say these are well built, but "plain" as far as spectrum output, and they instead recommend some hybrids, which again seem to be stressing IR and UV....


So, I would be really interested to hear what you folks might recommend for me. I really don't want to buy something and have it die in a year or so.

A few more things:
- If the driver can do 0-10V dimming that would be awesome
- IP-rated is a plus but not required
- Quieter is preferable, this will be in my living room behind the tank
- I will be able to provide ventilation as needed
- Rectangular shape/pattern is better than square or spot

My price range is around $300, maybe up to about $500 if necessary. Most of these lights are just way to big for me, so the trick is to get one of the smaller ones that is still made with the good stuff.

So, any thoughts?

Thank you very much in advance.

-JCL
 
MW7945

MW7945

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So, if I'm gathering correctly, this is for growing sea weed or ..?

I'm pretty sure there's specific aquarium led lights
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
So, if I'm gathering correctly, this is for growing sea weed or ..?

I'm pretty sure there's specific aquarium led lights

Yes, growing sea weed. (hey, it's still weed right?)

There are aquarium lights of course, but most are for illuminating fish or a different spectrum for corals, or much lower intensities for planted aquariums.

This is specifically for growing sea weed very rapidly, requiring a high output grow type light. Basically very similar requirements to growing cannabis.

-JCL
 
MW7945

MW7945

3,269
263
Hmm... Guess I don't know a damn thing about seaweed other than I hate swimming in it.

That being said, cobs. for sure. What you ideally need to figure out is what spectrum is ideal for this. Or rather, do you want heavy red light or heavy blue light to get the best results.
 
MW7945

MW7945

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263
One would assume youd be mainly after blue light. so look for the 5000-6500K range of that's the case.
 
sixstring

sixstring

7,079
313
these guys make lights to order.i would ask them to modify this fixture to have 1 cob in 1750k spectrum and 1 in the 4000k.its plenty bright for your needs and dimmable.
 
AvidLerner

AvidLerner

296
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Sounds interesting.
I believe the IR and UV are very important for your aquarium, as water based plants thrive from IR and UV. I have a Diamond series light and it is full spectrum. COB's are nice but you will still have to add, IR, UV. Unless you are going to add additional red/blue, the reds and blues will have to come from mixing 5000k spectrum with 2700k spectrum; for example; to give you lots of red/blues, as the blues activate the energy levels for the reds to work with the plants growth.

The other option is to get a pcb Samsung board that has the spectrum and the red/blues you need similar to Diamond series. there are a couple DIY available ChilLed Tech and GrowGreen. You can google both to find out more.

I represent GrowGreen
namaste
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
Hmm... Guess I don't know a damn thing about seaweed other than I hate swimming in it.

That being said, cobs. for sure. What you ideally need to figure out is what spectrum is ideal for this. Or rather, do you want heavy red light or heavy blue light to get the best results.

Yeah, I have started reading up on COBs, apparently they can be as much as 50% more efficient than some of the other LEDs.

The specific spectrum needed for my use case is something that is very hotly debated. I am not going to try and re-invent the wheel here. Many people are having amazing results with the Kessil and some of the Chinese "blurple" lights. So, my aim would be to duplicate these results, only with a better lumen/watt than the Kessil, and better longevity / quality than the Chinese lights.

For what it is worth, here is what the Kessil H380 comes in at:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AniIVXDUWLC6HGFm1
3389K, but I don't think you can only go by the color temperature.

-JCL
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
One would assume youd be mainly after blue light. so look for the 5000-6500K range of that's the case.
My thinking is that the same range that is needed for Cannabis in the "grow" stage is good.

-JCL
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
these guys make lights to order.i would ask them to modify this fixture to have 1 cob in 1750k spectrum and 1 in the 4000k.its plenty bright for your needs and dimmable.

OK, this is interesting. So 1750k for the reds and 4000k for the blues? Is it not possible to have a single COB type that does what I need? I thought that was the whole "full spectrum" argument. Do you mix these together like that when using them for Cannabis?

I am also curious about the three different brands of LEDs they have, just a matter of price/efficiency differences I guess?

But the Timber lights look really nice and a very good fit for me at least as far as quality and features.

-JCL
 
MW7945

MW7945

3,269
263
That's sort of an odd spectrum... 4000K will be as close to that as you'll get
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
Sounds interesting.
I believe the IR and UV are very important for your aquarium, as water based plants thrive from IR and UV.
Yes, seems many feel this way. The Kessil I know has both IR and UV, but only some of the Chinese lights seem to have it, some of them just have IR and claim UV is not needed.

I have a Diamond series light and it is full spectrum.
Took a look at these, wow, these are amazing. This one here looks like a real winner:
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/ds-100w/
Looks like it has an even better spectrum than the Kessil, and higher output, for the same price. And looks like they are made in USA. Not CIB, but this is very tempting honestly. Some of the other lights they have seem even better, and they do have a COB based light as well, but most of them are too large.
If I may ask, which one are you using? Kinda wondering what the major differentiator between the different models is. Did not know about these, thank you for mentioning them.

COB's are nice but you will still have to add, IR, UV. Unless you are going to add additional red/blue, the reds and blues will have to come from mixing 5000k spectrum with 2700k spectrum; for example; to give you lots of red/blues, as the blues activate the energy levels for the reds to work with the plants growth.

I have seen a few hybrid COB / other LED lights and even one with a fluorescent tube for UV. But most of them are so large they could light up my whole neighborhood.

One of the reasons I really want IR and UV is because I am going to be mixing several different species of plants together, and they probably have slightly different requirements.

Maybe there are some strips somewhere that are heavy on IR and UV that I could mount along side the Timber lights next to the COBs. But might be more work than it is worth, you would need two drivers probably... etc.

The other option is to get a pcb Samsung board that has the spectrum and the red/blues you need similar to Diamond series. there are a couple DIY available ChilLed Tech and GrowGreen. You can google both to find out more.

I represent GrowGreen
namaste

OK, so you make a nice controller that can be used with the DIY solution.

Wow, those ChilLED's, another amazing light! Probably the most complex one I have seen yet. Have you tried these yourself? The size would be good for me with just one of those modules. Really nice, and I was waiting to see someone water cool LEDs, I have been doing that with my computer CPU for years. I am tempted to contact these guys and see how "friendly" they might be to my use case. Most places don't want to deal.

BAH!! But now you have filled my head with options!!! Now I will never be able to decide.

-JCL
 
AvidLerner

AvidLerner

296
63
Yes, seems many feel this way. The Kessil I know has both IR and UV, but only some of the Chinese lights seem to have it, some of them just have IR and claim UV is not needed.


Took a look at these, wow, these are amazing. This one here looks like a real winner:
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/ds-100w/
Looks like it has an even better spectrum than the Kessil, and higher output, for the same price. And looks like they are made in USA. Not CIB, but this is very tempting honestly. Some of the other lights they have seem even better, and they do have a COB based light as well, but most of them are too large.
If I may ask, which one are you using? Kinda wondering what the major differentiator between the different models is. Did not know about these, thank you for mentioning them.



I have seen a few hybrid COB / other LED lights and even one with a fluorescent tube for UV. But most of them are so large they could light up my whole neighborhood.

One of the reasons I really want IR and UV is because I am going to be mixing several different species of plants together, and they probably have slightly different requirements.

Maybe there are some strips somewhere that are heavy on IR and UV that I could mount along side the Timber lights next to the COBs. But might be more work than it is worth, you would need two drivers probably... etc.



OK, so you make a nice controller that can be used with the DIY solution.

Wow, those ChilLED's, another amazing light! Probably the most complex one I have seen yet. Have you tried these yourself? The size would be good for me with just one of those modules. Really nice, and I was waiting to see someone water cool LEDs, I have been doing that with my computer CPU for years. I am tempted to contact these guys and see how "friendly" they might be to my use case. Most places don't want to deal.

BAH!! But now you have filled my head with options!!! Now I will never be able to decide.

-JCL
I have this Diamond light the XML350
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/ds-xml-350/

I also have 200w Samsung LM561C 2 channel boards driven by 2- HLG-120H-C1050B drivers, and luxeon SunPlus 20, 2 channel boards with Deep reds, far reds, UVA 385nm, and Royal Blue, with independent channel control.

I also design and build DMX light controllers for stage lighting companies.

options make it fun.

I also have stuff on ITEAD Sonoff wifi lighting controls. I am in the process of making my 6/8 channel controllers wifi capable now with ESP8266 format.
namaste
 
AvidLerner

AvidLerner

296
63
Yes, seems many feel this way. The Kessil I know has both IR and UV, but only some of the Chinese lights seem to have it, some of them just have IR and claim UV is not needed.


Took a look at these, wow, these are amazing. This one here looks like a real winner:
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/ds-100w/
Looks like it has an even better spectrum than the Kessil, and higher output, for the same price. And looks like they are made in USA. Not CIB, but this is very tempting honestly. Some of the other lights they have seem even better, and they do have a COB based light as well, but most of them are too large.
If I may ask, which one are you using? Kinda wondering what the major differentiator between the different models is. Did not know about these, thank you for mentioning them.



I have seen a few hybrid COB / other LED lights and even one with a fluorescent tube for UV. But most of them are so large they could light up my whole neighborhood.

One of the reasons I really want IR and UV is because I am going to be mixing several different species of plants together, and they probably have slightly different requirements.

Maybe there are some strips somewhere that are heavy on IR and UV that I could mount along side the Timber lights next to the COBs. But might be more work than it is worth, you would need two drivers probably... etc.



OK, so you make a nice controller that can be used with the DIY solution.

Wow, those ChilLED's, another amazing light! Probably the most complex one I have seen yet. Have you tried these yourself? The size would be good for me with just one of those modules. Really nice, and I was waiting to see someone water cool LEDs, I have been doing that with my computer CPU for years. I am tempted to contact these guys and see how "friendly" they might be to my use case. Most places don't want to deal.

BAH!! But now you have filled my head with options!!! Now I will never be able to decide.

-JCL
Yes. I have tried ChilLed Tech as well. They are nice boards. The ChilLed Tech boards motivated me to do more, as well
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
I have this Diamond light the XML350
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/ds-xml-350/

I also have 200w Samsung LM561C 2 channel boards driven by 2- HLG-120H-C1050B drivers, and luxeon SunPlus 20, 2 channel boards with Deep reds, far reds, UVA 385nm, and Royal Blue, with independent channel control.

I also design and build DMX light controllers for stage lighting companies.

options make it fun.

I also have stuff on ITEAD Sonoff wifi lighting controls. I am in the process of making my 6/8 channel controllers wifi capable now with ESP8266 format.
namaste

That XML 350 looks really nice. Not COB, but using those jumbo 10w LEDs

You are way past my level on this stuff, which means I am probably in the right place ;-)
 
jcl123

jcl123

13
1
OK, so I did a bunch of research based on some of the suggestions you guys made, and here is what I came up with.

First, I found these articles very insightful:
WHICH IS BETTER: UVA OR UVB?
https://www.blackdogled.com/blog/which-is-better-uva-or-uvb/
HOW TO COMPARE DIFFERENT GROW LIGHTS
https://www.blackdogled.com/blog/how-to-compare-different-grow-lights/
ABOUT 1, 3, 5 AND 10-WATT DIODES AND COB OR "INTEGRATED" LEDS
https://www.blackdogled.com/blog/led-types/

Some of my take-aways from these are:
  • I think the 5w and or COBs are where I want to be, as it seems these types of lights are the best at "canopy penetration", and in my case, shining through water and seaweed.
  • I am going to try and stick to lights that can do UVA and NIR (365 - 750)
  • Of course these are from Black Dog who are trying to sell their products
  • I would love to have Black Dog, but they are just too expensive and too large for my needs
So, narrowing my constraints with this information, I have narrowed my choices down a bit. Here are some of them, not necessarily in any order:

Optic 2 COB 3000K & 5000K

- Very close to what sixstring was recommending + with added UV and IR
- Cheap for what they are @ $300
- A little powerful for what I need @ 205w, not dimmable
- Spectrum is really good and 380-780
- Not sure where they are made or how reputable this company is

Amare SolarSPEC 100 CREE

- All 5w LEDs, spectrum is 410-760, not great but good
- Pricey at $395, but probably a get-what-you-pay for deal
- Power consumption right where I want it at 100w, they have a slightly larger 150w too (same price)
- Seems like one of the more reputable brands

Advanced LED Diamond Series XTE 100
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/xte-100/
- A combination of 5w and 3w LEDs, same spectrum as the Amare
- Great power consumption at 80w
- Obviously a good brand

Those are the main three I currently have. I do feel compelled to note some honorable mentions here, even though they are in the Chinese LED category, they seem to be the "better of" those:

VIPARSPECTRA High Penetration Series HP300 or PAR450


- The first one is just $89 and the 2nd $189, that is so cheap even if they only lasted through the 3-year warranty and broke, they would not owe me anything
- These are all 5w LEDs (Bridgelux/Epileds), first one 130w
- The 450 is a bit big at 210w, but it looks like it is well cooled, which is the main problem with 5w LEDs, especially from a Chinese source, and it is dimmable
- One downside is they have IR but not UV


So, aside from these choices, I really do like the Timber COBs lights and kits. Looking at the spectrum, it looks like if you did put say a 3000K and a 5000K together, you would get between 410 and 750 or so. It would be great though if someone could help me add strips that added 365 to 410, actually that is probably all I would need since 750 is probably high enough into NIR. I don't see much difference between the three different types of COBs though. I could even go with three, and do 5000/3000/5000K in a line or something.

Think I am on the right track?

-JCL
 
AvidLerner

AvidLerner

296
63
OK, so I did a bunch of research based on some of the suggestions you guys made, and here is what I came up with.

First, I found these articles very insightful:
WHICH IS BETTER: UVA OR UVB?
https://www.blackdogled.com/blog/which-is-better-uva-or-uvb/
HOW TO COMPARE DIFFERENT GROW LIGHTS
https://www.blackdogled.com/blog/how-to-compare-different-grow-lights/
ABOUT 1, 3, 5 AND 10-WATT DIODES AND COB OR "INTEGRATED" LEDS
https://www.blackdogled.com/blog/led-types/

Some of my take-aways from these are:
  • I think the 5w and or COBs are where I want to be, as it seems these types of lights are the best at "canopy penetration", and in my case, shining through water and seaweed.
  • I am going to try and stick to lights that can do UVA and NIR (365 - 750)
  • Of course these are from Black Dog who are trying to sell their products
  • I would love to have Black Dog, but they are just too expensive and too large for my needs
So, narrowing my constraints with this information, I have narrowed my choices down a bit. Here are some of them, not necessarily in any order:

Optic 2 COB 3000K & 5000K

- Very close to what sixstring was recommending + with added UV and IR
- Cheap for what they are @ $300
- A little powerful for what I need @ 205w, not dimmable
- Spectrum is really good and 380-780
- Not sure where they are made or how reputable this company is

Amare SolarSPEC 100 CREE

- All 5w LEDs, spectrum is 410-760, not great but good
- Pricey at $395, but probably a get-what-you-pay for deal
- Power consumption right where I want it at 100w, they have a slightly larger 150w too (same price)
- Seems like one of the more reputable brands

Advanced LED Diamond Series XTE 100
https://advancedledlights.com/products/led-grow-lights/xte-100/
- A combination of 5w and 3w LEDs, same spectrum as the Amare
- Great power consumption at 80w
- Obviously a good brand

Those are the main three I currently have. I do feel compelled to note some honorable mentions here, even though they are in the Chinese LED category, they seem to be the "better of" those:

VIPARSPECTRA High Penetration Series HP300 or PAR450


- The first one is just $89 and the 2nd $189, that is so cheap even if they only lasted through the 3-year warranty and broke, they would not owe me anything
- These are all 5w LEDs (Bridgelux/Epileds), first one 130w
- The 450 is a bit big at 210w, but it looks like it is well cooled, which is the main problem with 5w LEDs, especially from a Chinese source, and it is dimmable
- One downside is they have IR but not UV


So, aside from these choices, I really do like the Timber COBs lights and kits. Looking at the spectrum, it looks like if you did put say a 3000K and a 5000K together, you would get between 410 and 750 or so. It would be great though if someone could help me add strips that added 365 to 410, actually that is probably all I would need since 750 is probably high enough into NIR. I don't see much difference between the three different types of COBs though. I could even go with three, and do 5000/3000/5000K in a line or something.

Think I am on the right track?

-JCL

On my website I have some new Deep Red 700nmnm/Royal Blue 460nm and Far Red 730nm/UVA 385nm boards using lumileds SunPlus 20 diodes top horticulture diodes in the industry to date.
 
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