True Living organics: edges turning light green

[Jamz]

Hello fellow green thumbs!

I am new to the scene and need some advice on an issue i am having with my tlo garden.

Some info first:
I am using Vital earth OG potting soil, compost teas, and a true living organic regimen and i am 100% Medical and legal. I have plenty of fresh air, with temps from 60 night and 70 day, 40 to 60 humidity. I am using Hortilux blue eye metal halide.

So far so good, in a couple weeks ready to bloom. A couple weeks ago there was signs of micro def. so i added General Organics Microblast, and really saw major improvements. i do a feed, tea, plain water (with calmg) watering schedule.

Last week i noticed the very edges of leaves getting lighter in color, almost bright green, with a few brown spots appearing. They were do for a feed so i figured they were hungry, all good. Since then they have not gotten better, some getting worse and slightly burning on the edges even after a compost tea that didnt correct the problem. They are still growing strong but slowing down a bit.

What should the next step be? Normally I would think doing a flush and adding a light feed would correct it, but i am new to TLO style and not sure it would be a good idea to flush my microherd down the holes.

I also added a reservoir heater because I had some cold water that might have locked up some nutrients, but that hasnt solved the issue either. i am using RO water, non ph adjusted.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Seamaiden]

Hi. Pix would help here greatly, both whole plant shots and close-ups if necessary to depict the problem.

A daytime high of 70*F is too cold. Plain and simple, it's too cold. The plant will not be able to transport and utilize available nutrients if it's too cold.

I'm not sure that GO Microblast is 'organic,' unless you're thinking in terms of chemistry. I'll have to double-check, but if you're growing in a 'true' living (soil) organic method, the micros should be being provided by rock dusts, Azomite, bentonite and the like.

Based simply on what description you provide, I'm going to guess possibly Mg-. I'd really have to see the plants in question to say for certain, though. I can't say how to proceed for sure since I don't know for sure, but to help Dx a Mg-, mix up 1/4tsp/gal water of MgSO4 (that's Epsom salt) with a few drops of nonantimicrobial dish soap, and give that as a foliar application ensuring you thoroughly saturate the undersides of the leaves. IF it's Mg-, the plant should green back up where it's become chlorotic. The necrosis will never repair/correct.

Also, if you're growing in a true organic method, flushing shouldn't even really be in your vocabulary. Not because it'll flush away the microbes, but because it accomplishes nothing if your setup is truly organic.

 

[Jamz]

Thank you for your response,

I am having trouble uploading pics even though they are within the requirements, trying to figure it out.

The leaves that are burnt badly was from the previous micro def. and was corrected, and like you and my mentor has told me the necrosis won't get better and was not a concern. The new problem I am experiencing are the leaves showing lighter green on the edges with some slightly burnt. I have also noticed the ridges starting to curl upwards and the leaves are sometimes wavy or wrinkled.

The temp usually stays above 70 daytime but only up to about 78. On cold days it will drop below 70, but not all day and the coldest point would be 65. I was aware that colder then 60 is really bad, but didn't think below 70 was a major factor especially after the experienced gardener helping me has reassured me that it wasn't. On the other hand I have been a bit skeptical about some of the info he has taught me, so this is a good thing to know.

The Microblast is actually Earth Juice and by what my mentor has told me everything i am using is organic, but like I said there is a possibility that this could be false and I guess I don't know the difference between true organic and chemically organic.

I use GO Calmg+ at a rate of 5ml a gallon and have slowly increased to 8 Ml a gallon. The strain is a cross of skunk1 and chem dawg 91. I like to call it 911 ironically, heh. I was told this cross is CalMg hungry, so a mg- would make alot of sense. The bottle states 5 to 10 being the range for application, so I was going to increase to the maximum dosage next watering since my personal diagnosis through research was a mg- as well. I also do a series of foliars, including an insect frass spray which the hydro store owner told me has plenty of Mg. He also advised that cold water temp could lock up nutes so I bought a res heater, and have watered twice with warmer water. i understand that it may take a few days for signs of recovery so I am being patient.

Does insect frass really have Mg? And can cal mg+ be used as a foliar or is Epsom salt my only option?

As far as the flush goes, that's exactly what I was thinking because of the organic style. Now I am questioning the validity of my setup as true organic!

Thank you so much for your help! If you need more info I can provide it.

 

[Jamz]

 

[Seamaiden]

Thank you for your response,

I am having trouble uploading pics even though they are within the requirements, trying to figure it out.

The site admin has been playing around with new skins for us, that may have caused a bit of an upset. If the problem continues we need to let him know what's going on.

The leaves that are burnt badly was from the previous micro def. and was corrected, and like you and my mentor has told me the necrosis won't get better and was not a concern. The new problem I am experiencing are the leaves showing lighter green on the edges with some slightly burnt. I have also noticed the ridges starting to curl upwards and the leaves are sometimes wavy or wrinkled.

IME, that's usually a response to pH being off. But, we have a problem with that if you're growing in a truly organic, living soil food web style, and that problem is that plants and microbes have the ability to 'adjust' pH themselves (assuming they have the 'materials' to do it).

The temp usually stays above 70 daytime but only up to about 78. On cold days it will drop below 70, but not all day and the coldest point would be 65. I was aware that colder then 60 is really bad, but didn't think below 70 was a major factor especially after the experienced gardener helping me has reassured me that it wasn't. On the other hand I have been a bit skeptical about some of the info he has taught me, so this is a good thing to know.

Growing indoors, in pots, your biggest problem is that root zone. If the roots are cold, the plant cannot, and therefore will not take up available nutrients properly, nor can it utilize what's available or being directly fed to it. The roots are most important. A daytime high of 78* is fine, but a daytime high of 70*, in my experience growing in a God damned COLD room, is insufficiently warmed.

The Microblast is actually Earth Juice and by what my mentor has told me everything i am using is organic, but like I said there is a possibility that this could be false and I guess I don't know the difference between true organic and chemically organic.

I'm not familiar enough with EJ to say for sure, but I've read plenty of people who are using the line with good results. However, being in the liquid form its in, it doesn't stay in the soil like rock dusts will. There's also the whole issue of what you're feeding and how. To me it reads like you're feeding the plant, and that's a difficult angle to take with regard to soil food web methods because it completely ignores the most important players--the food web constituents. They need to be fed, feed them, feed the soil, and they/that will feed the plant.

That's not to say don't use the EJ, it is to say that as you continue learning about this, you will learn what I posted above is true.

I use GO Calmg+ at a rate of 5ml a gallon and have slowly increased to 8 Ml a gallon. The strain is a cross of skunk1 and chem dawg 91. I like to call it 911 ironically, heh. I was told this cross is CalMg hungry, so a mg- would make alot of sense. The bottle states 5 to 10 being the range for application, so I was going to increase to the maximum dosage next watering since my personal diagnosis through research was a mg- as well. I also do a series of foliars, including an insect frass spray which the hydro store owner told me has plenty of Mg. He also advised that cold water temp could lock up nutes so I bought a res heater, and have watered twice with warmer water. i understand that it may take a few days for signs of recovery so I am being patient.

I like to separate the Ca from the Mg, and in doing so I learned a LOT, like how to tell a Ca- from a Mg-. If you have the Cal-Mag go ahead and use it, but from the pix you've posted I can't make out anything that suggests a Ca-, only Mg- and what may be a K-.

Does insect frass really have Mg? And can cal mg+ be used as a foliar or is Epsom salt my only option?

As far as the flush goes, that's exactly what I was thinking because of the organic style. Now I am questioning the validity of my setup as true organic!

Thank you so much for your help! If you need more info I can provide it.

I don't know if frass has Mg. Yes, you can use the Cal-Mag as a foliar, using about a quarter of the root feeding strength.

I am working towards getting myself/farm registered and certified as organic (chickenman has been through this!), and while I am very into the whole organic thing, I hate the idea of being a Nazi about it. You're working toward it, allow yourself a learning curve, ok? In other words, IT'S OK if you're not 100% 'true' organic. You'll get there.

Get yourself the book Teaming with Microbes, start there.

 

[Jamz]

I had trouble uploading pics I sent to my email, so i had to save them in paint and resize them in order for them to work and quality was compromised in the process.

The ph of my RO water is 5.5, and was told to never adjust it because of the microbe ph adjusters. I own the book Teaming With Microbes and have read it cover to cover, very good info. The only reason I haven't steered away from the nutrient regimen given to me was because it is partially his project and was supposed to be a tried and trued method. Since he has been unavailable as of late and now I am beginning to suspect issues with the compatibility of the regimen and microbial life I have turned to other sources such as this site to try and accomplish a true organic style, or like you said try to be close and at least solve the current issue with the current resources available to me. And thanks for the advise, I am truly aware of the learning curve, heh heh. So maybe I should give some details on the regimen and what I am using to make the compost tea and go from there.

As far as the temp of the root zone, it seems to be the major issue with the setup since the cold water and air temps. Fixed the water temp, now to solve the air temp. In my opinion the lights themselves should be enough to heat it that few more degrees, if I get a fan controller to slow down the exhaust inline. It seems as though this would be a cheaper approach than running a space heater since the electricity bill is already rather high, and funds are limited. Right now the exhaust is running full speed as well as the intake. Time for a controller? Also is the extra cost of getting a thermostat fan controller worth it over just slowing the fan down altogether? Again funding is an issue at this point.

I agree with you on the feeding the plants rather then the soil/microbes, especially after doing lots of research and reading the book . I was told to feed them, then a tea next watering so the microbes can cycle the food through. beginning to question that method! lol. I will send a pm with my regimen and recipes then maybe you can point me in the right direction.

I like the sounds of separating the ca and mg and since there are no signs of ca- (I use cal carb foliar as well) maybe I will pick up some Epsom salts.. Can i get it at the grocery store or should it be from the hydro store? My guess is the hydro store. Again cost might be an issue and if there is no risk of ca+ then I would rather use what I have, and maybe skip the cal carb foliar unless the Epsom is reasonably priced.

Greatly appreciate the help and insight, and so does my garden. PM on the way.

 

[Seamaiden]

Fantastic that you've read the book, it's a great primer, but obviously isn't complete. Epsom salts can be purchased anywhere, the market, drug store, anywhere they sell them. The Ca product I personally like using is BioLink 6% Ca.

Another method for heating that I've used to some success is using an electric blanket, folding (CAREFULLY) and wrapping/encasing in plastic well. You want to make sure you don't pinch or break any of the heating wires in it. Getting the roots warm may be easiest, and here's the thing that also works in your favor--heat rises. A twin size electric blanket from Wally Land is around $30-$40. I haven't gotten myself a fan controller, so I can't compare pricing on that.

Better pix would help me/us help you better. The ones you posted were a bit small for these old eyes, and I was unable to get a really good focused gander at them. That said, I personally don't think they look bad. Yeah, they have some issues, but otherwise what I could make out looked good.

 

[woodsmaneh]

First thing your RO Ph is likely 7 to 7.3 not the best but can work, second stop using RO, unless you have any mineral build up on your taps use regular water and Ph it down if you need to. Add worm castings to the top and work in with your fingers and water, your problems will go away.

Using Epson salt is a no no in my book. I know there are ton's of people who use it but there can be heavy metals in it and I don't want any of that. Epson salt is typically made with cheap secondary chemicals. That's why it's so cheap. Linda has done loads of work in the horticulture field and has a new book out on tea's. She also helped with Teaming with microbes.

Here is a warning

Epsom Salt Controversy​

​

GardenWise has received a number of differing opinions on the subject of using Epsom salt in the garden. There seem two schools of thought: do use it in moderation and don’t use it except in very specific circumstances. After further research, we are inclined to no longer recommend the use of Epsom salt in single-family gardens. Before applying any treatment to soil, it’s important to first test your soil. Magnesium deficiency is usually only found in cases of intensive cropping or during extended periods of rainfall, as it can leech away quickly from top soil. Since tree roots are an important source of magnesium, mulching with leaves will offer soil a good source of the mineral along with complementary nitrogen, which aides in a plant’s absorption of magnesium. Find more information about magnesium deficiency in soil in the excellent research paper by Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott, PhD, associate professor and extension urban horticulturist at Washington State University Puyallup Research and Extension Center.

 

[woodsmaneh]

Stop using RO unless your taps are all crusted up. Top dress with worm castings and work into the top with your fingers and water your problems will go away. Work castings can be purchased from hydro stores and are cheap. Use up to 25% by volume.

Epson salts is a No No in my book, I know tons of organic gardeners swear by it and use it. The problem is that most epson salts contain heavy metals and I want no part of that. Epson salt is made from cheap inferior secondary chemicals that contain heavy metals, that's why it's cheap. :(

Epsom Salt Controversy​

​

GardenWise has received a number of differing opinions on the subject of using Epsom salt in the garden. There seem two schools of thought: do use it in moderation and don’t use it except in very specific circumstances. After further research, we are inclined to no longer recommend the use of Epsom salt in single-family gardens. Before applying any treatment to soil, it’s important to first test your soil. Magnesium deficiency is usually only found in cases of intensive cropping or during extended periods of rainfall, as it can leech away quickly from top soil. Since tree roots are an important source of magnesium, mulching with leaves will offer soil a good source of the mineral along with complementary nitrogen, which aides in a plant’s absorption of magnesium. Find more information about magnesium deficiency in soil in the excellent research paper by Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott, PhD, associate professor and extension urban horticulturist at Washington State University Puyallup Research and Extension Center.


:(

 

[caveman4.20]

True living organics by the rev says its supernatural style meaning not completely organic but everything he uses he says does not threaten the living soil thats the organic in TLO.....to be organic the ingredient must have been a living organism at one point so natural things arent necesarrily alive for instance minerals like in Microblast some are alive like whats derived from kelp and some are natural like mineral from the seawater.....
the rev says and i agree to stay away from a whole list of stuff that kills microbeasties....tap and ph adusters are on that list

What was in that tea and how did you mix and how long?

 

[caveman4.20]

Oh ya whats in the Vital Earth Og soil ?

 

[Afghi420]

sorry if this has already be discussed but from what i understand from the Rev's articles is that the EJ uses fulvic and humic acids and i *think* they may be bad for micro life if too heavy.. It's hard to say though because i have seen him now say not to use EJ, then in another articlehe says's it's ok to use EJ. The microblast isnt a fertilizer but a big mix of nurtients isnt it? I currently am not using a pure prganic system myself, i use a soilless mix then add worm castings, dolomite lime, tiny pinch of chicken manure, sheep manure and a dash of myco fungi powder. As for the worm castings i use a couple or 3 good handfuls in a 3 gallon pot. The sheep manure i use a couple handfuls. The chicken manure i just use a pinch or two... I don't think using the regular EJ grow+bloom+catalyst (thats the 3 i currently use with excellent results so far) is good for the micro life though. I could be wrong though so im not saying that is 100 % truth.. I just got the Rev's book btw, i am a big fan of what he does, and i would love to have a jar of some of his long flowering sativa's for sure... I copied a post i found about Earth Juice that helped me quite a bit with the product. It's really long though, too long to post here, if you want it pm me your email or something and i can send it to you, it really helped me with the EJ, it made me realize how much i was underfeeding my plants using EJ, now that i have a nice feeding schedule using grow+bloom+catalyst for every feeding i am having nice results. I've got 6 LA Confidentials i just flipped last week that are doing pretty good, very slight leaftip burn at times but not having any real issues now. Take it easy, hope you have excellent results doing organics, i've yet to even smoke a true TLO grown bud, but i would love to..

 

[caveman4.20]

Humic fulvic etc. need to be diluted first then use sparingly if necessary.

 

[Phenom]

The site admin has been playing around with new skins for us, that may have caused a bit of an upset. If the problem continues we need to let him know what's going on.

IME, that's usually a response to pH being off. But, we have a problem with that if you're growing in a truly organic, living soil food web style, and that problem is that plants and microbes have the ability to 'adjust' pH themselves (assuming they have the 'materials' to do it).

Growing indoors, in pots, your biggest problem is that root zone. If the roots are cold, the plant cannot, and therefore will not take up available nutrients properly, nor can it utilize what's available or being directly fed to it. The roots are most important. A daytime high of 78* is fine, but a daytime high of 70*, in my experience growing in a God damned COLD room, is insufficiently warmed.

I'm not familiar enough with EJ to say for sure, but I've read plenty of people who are using the line with good results. However, being in the liquid form its in, it doesn't stay in the soil like rock dusts will. There's also the whole issue of what you're feeding and how. To me it reads like you're feeding the plant, and that's a difficult angle to take with regard to soil food web methods because it completely ignores the most important players--the food web constituents. They need to be fed, feed them, feed the soil, and they/that will feed the plant.

That's not to say don't use the EJ, it is to say that as you continue learning about this, you will learn what I posted above is true.

I like to separate the Ca from the Mg, and in doing so I learned a LOT, like how to tell a Ca- from a Mg-. If you have the Cal-Mag go ahead and use it, but from the pix you've posted I can't make out anything that suggests a Ca-, only Mg- and what may be a K-.

I don't know if frass has Mg. Yes, you can use the Cal-Mag as a foliar, using about a quarter of the root feeding strength.

I am working towards getting myself/farm registered and certified as organic (chickenman has been through this!), and while I am very into the whole organic thing, I hate the idea of being a Nazi about it. You're working toward it, allow yourself a learning curve, ok? In other words, IT'S OK if you're not 100% 'true' organic. You'll get there.

Get yourself the book Teaming with Microbes, start there.

Normally I don't bring things back from the dead but this particular post and this particular thread is in my opinion very helpful and could use a little bit of extra Google time for the beginner.
Here we are in 2018 5 years later and people on YouTube and some of the largest breeding circles in our industry still argue about this point and what is the difference between organic, living soil, and synthetic..
The only experience I have is with Organic bottled nutrients in soil. not 100%living web as I treated it like soilless after 4 weeks so flushed medium. this is such a continuous point and people don't understand the science of nature and why outside flushing isn't needed due to breakdown of microbial webs etc. we can do this indoors but how do we replicate fall? IMHO if the soil is thriving and the plant is done, how do we signal fall?
TY so much for this post.