Using Hydro Buddy

  • Thread starter Crysmatic
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Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
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The 2% error is fixed! you can download v0.97. he is on it!

he also put all the micros in one column in the copy fert box...i noticed after getting 248 ppm Mn when i wanted 3.2% calcium :) it should match pH spreadsheet exactly now.

there's also link to a 'mulder chart' which shows element antagonism and stimulation near the bottom of the download page. the site is now 'science in hydroponics'.
 
R

REGISTRD

Guest
Yes ive noticed the site has been science in hydro for about a week know Im running firefox so maybe its just pickin up the code faster..

Im still not getting the same ppms...
although they are much closer know Ph seems to be a bit higher on the ppms..Using the "salt to formulation"tab
IE..5ml of Floramicro on PH= 76/5(N) 13(K) 81(ca)
5ml of micro on Hydrobuddy= 62/4(N) 11(K) 66(ca) Respectivily...
Does this mean Ph is Off maybe?? :sweating

Its really bazarre.. The copy comm nute calc is DEAD ON to PH yet you put the same analysis in the add new salt tab and use the "salt to formulation" tab its Differnt!! :fighting0085:
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
first i'll ask you why are you trying to copy a 3 part? more degrees of freedom is more complex, and harder to converge to a solution...if it exists.

GH Micro ingredients:

ammonium molybdate
calcium nitrate
cobalt nitrate
copper nitrate
potassium nitrate
zinc nitrate
potassium borate
potassium sulfate
calcium carbonate
manganese edta
iron eddha and dpta

the density is 1.18 kg / 0.946 L = 1.247 g/ml. 2.61 lb = 1.184 kg, so i picked a nice number - 1.25. i see that pH guaranteed analysis in the nuteorama is 1.23. i get 77.6/5-0-13.7-82.6. pH gives me identical numbers.

KNO3 3.55g
Ca(NO3)2 48.75g
ammonium nitrate 5.7g

gives me 72.7/10-0-13.7-82.6. total N is the same, and NH4+ is 12%. i got 68/4.4 using 43.5g yara calcium nitrate. i 'cheated' but it works :)

it could be that GH doesn't list the correct salts, a wrong guaranteed analysis. some salts are not available in hydro buddy, so we're trying to approximate it with different salts.:headbang
 
Floramicro
R

REGISTRD

Guest
Thanks Crys.. Im not trying to copy a 3 part. I dont even run GH im using them as example..Im just trying to get away from the PH spread all together...I guess im trying to use two programs in one.. I have some rooms on Comm nutes and some rooms on straight salts.. It would really be nice if i could load up all my comm nutes in the salt tabs like the Nute o rama tab on Ph. On PH we have to play with the ml/gal to get to the exact formulation..This is what I hate about PH and What I luv about HYDROBUDDY. I can just save my formualtions and click calculate and bam itll tell me what i need of all my recipe...WEll maybe im dreaming....Its really not a big deal I can still use both..

YES i did your calcs on my calc and YEs it does exactly compare to PH spread..
KNow go make a salt named floramicro and see if it comes up the same???
EDIT: The only thing im getting it down to is the density.. we have no density option on the add new salt tab...This has to be my problem...The math is exact once the density is exact!!
 
H

HydroRookie

14
0
Great program !

Hello guys,

I have been reading this for a while and I find this program and the ability prepare our own nutrients very interesting Imagine all the money we are going to save !

I just wanted to start contributing to this thread :) HydroBuddy 0.971 has just been released Daniel (that's the webmaster's name right ?) has said that the previous changes (suggested on the comments as far as I could see) were wrong because of some problems with nutrient preparations.

I guess I can see where the problem is. The calculations done by PH spreadsheet are WRONG because the final volume of the solutions is taken as nutrients + intended volume when it should only be the final volume. Daniel points out now on the program that to prepare a solution you should fill the reservoir half-way, then add the nutrients and complete the reservoir change. It seems that he has also reverted this changes and kept the calculator how it was on the previous versions.

I can't wait to start making some nutrients with the help of this program and you guys :)
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
..Im just trying to get away from the PH spread all together...I guess im trying to use two programs in one.. ...i could load up all my comm nutes in the salt tabs like the Nute o rama tab on Ph. On PH we have to play with the ml/gal to get to the exact formulation..This is what I hate about PH and What I luv about HYDROBUDDY. I can just save my formualtions and click calculate and bam itll tell me what i need of all my recipe...WEll maybe im dreaming....Its really not a big deal I can still use both..

... The only thing im getting it down to is the density.. we have no density option on the add new salt tab...This has to be my problem...

i see what you're trying to do now.

i think the problem is that hydro buddy assumes new salts are powders. when i created a new salt called floramicro, and input 83-0-14-83, it calculates 166g. divide it by the density, 1.25 g/ml, to give 132.8 ml of floramicro. do the same with your other fertilizers.

i tried putting 125% purity in the new salt field - to trick hydro buddy into using density. it doesn't use purity on the desired formulation tab, but it DOES use purity (density) on the salts to formulations tab - problem solved. we can let daniel know that sometimes (often?) new salts are liquid fertilizers - so he can include density, or fix the purity box link.

make sense?

i created new salts called floragro, micro, and bloom. i input 100-100-200 in desired formulation. hydrobuddy didn't solve automatically.

i input 8ml micro (in the salt weight field), 16 ml bloom, their densities, 1 gallon res, (lucas is 0-8-16 ml/gal GMB) and i get 132-106-184-132-70...identical to pH. i tweaked it a little; 60g, 140g, and 355g, GMB, gives 102-100-199-87.5-70 (lucas).

you may find that your commercial ferts WON'T give you your desired profile. give it a shot.

in your situation, i think it's still easier to use pH. i bet you can't wait to dispose of your com ferts so you can forget about pH :)
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
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here's a little tutorial to hand calculate ppm to help you see how hydro buddy gets its numbers. i hth.

NPK is based on weight and ratios. NPK is grams of an element in 100g of stuff (% means by hundred). ppm means mg/L.

Metric is the way to go. everything is defined in metric, so you save yourself converting all the time from imperial. metric is just a matter of moving the decimal. liter is upper case L.

1 kg = 1000 g, 1 g = 1000 mg
1 L = 1000 mL
1 kg = 1 L of pure water (by definition); 1 mL = 1 g or 1.0 g/mL. specific gravity is a substance's density relative to water's density (a ratio).

many salts are water complexes...and unless you know how many water molecules the salt is bonded to, you can't properly figure out your % by weight. just look these up. for simple salts just divide the molar mass of the element of interest, by the salt's molar mass.

molar mass is the mass, in grams, per mole (a specific number of atoms called avogadro's number). molar mass is the number below the element's symbol in the periodic table of elements (e.g. carbon is 12 g/mol). The atomic symbol is one or two letters, always upper case, and the second is always lower case. e.g. nitrogen is N, calcium is Ca.

magnesium sulphate heptahydrate (having 7 water molecules) is 9.8% magnesium by weight. the formula is MgSO4*7H2O. a number follows the element's symbol to indicate the number of atoms. no number implicitly means '1' atom (1 is not written for simplicity's sake).

Mg 24.305 g/mol
S 32.065
O 15.999
H 1.008

MgSO4: 24.305+32.065+4*15.999 = 120.366
H2O: 1.008*2+15.999 = 18.015
MgSO4 + 7*H2O = 120.366 + 7*18.015 = 246.471

Mg / MgSO4*7H2O
=24.305 / 246.471
=0.0986 = 9.86%

sweet is 1.5% magnesium by mass.
1 usgal, or 3.785 L bottle of sweet weighs 4.31 kg or 4310 g
4310 g * 1.5% = 64.65 g Mg in the whole bottle
64.65 g Mg / 9.86% = 655.68 g epsom salts per usgal
64.65 g = 64,650 mg Mg
the application rate is 20 mL Sweet per usgal or 3785 mL water
fraction of Mg in 20 mL sweet from the whole bottle:
64,650 mg Mg * 20 mL / 3785 mL = 341.6 mg Mg in 20 mL sweet
341.6 mg Mg / (3.785 L res + 0.020 L sweet) = 89.8 ppm Mg
check it in hydro buddy.
 
H

HydroRookie

14
0
i think the problem is that hydro buddy assumes new salts are powders

Yes I think that HydroBuddy assumes that salts are powders but according to what Daniel says you should simply weight your salts/liquid fertilizers, add them to half of your reservoir and then reach your final volume. This way no density calculation is needed. I think it is just as easy to weights your liquid fertilizers, right ? What do you think guys ?
 
H

HydroRookie

14
0
341.6 mg Mg / (3.785 L res + 0.020 L sweet) = 89.8 ppm Mg
check it in hydro buddy.

I believe exactly this is what Daniel said was wrong and why he reverted the changes made in v0.97 when v0.971 was released. You should download the latest version which is v0.971 where the above results do NOT match.

Daniel says that fertilizer manufacturers assume a 20mL per gallon addition as 1 gallon being the final volume not 1 gallon + 0.020L in the case you mention. For this reason the result would in reality be 90.25 ppm of Mg as the final volume would be effectively 1 gallon.

It seems that in order to correctly prepare solutions you need to take into account the addition into the final volume. NOT just add it on top.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
it took daniel a day to realise his error and his hastiness. he says that MOST calculators work on volume additions. so pH is WRONG, and hydro buddy is RIGHT. we learned WHY hydro buddy is right, and how to add nutrients to our res. now we know, and knowing is half the battle.
 
H

HydroRookie

14
0
Wow, this guy works fast :rock I will certainly send him a donation !

It seems that HydroBuddy v0.98 has just been released :)

Checkout the new features and bug fixes on his web. This new version has a lot of cool features, I like the fact that now we can prepare solutions with higher concentrations than 1:100 and that we can now checkout the final composition of the concentrated solutions (the percentages of each element)

I'll start playing with this new version :)
 
H

HydroRookie

14
0
we learned WHY hydro buddy is right, and how to add nutrients to our res. now we know, and knowing is half the battle.

You are VERY right there Crysmatic, knowing is half the battle and now that we know how nutrients should be prepared we will have much more accurate results :) I am amazed at how fast he updates and works on HydroBuddy, perhaps we should contribute to the online database so that more and more people use this software :)
 
MeJuana

MeJuana

320
43
I am sure he would only appreciate food contributions I too have been planning on doing a food grow. I wanna grow a few things at once tho, low lighting mixed with natural lighting I have the perfect bathroom for it... So much work in my other grow tho..

Nice thread Cysmatic!!
 
MeJuana

MeJuana

320
43
I was having a hard time getting too many salts in concentrate warnings on Hydrobuddy trying to make concentrate A+B trace mixes today. Then I realized I don't have to mix the same Concentrate for Iron and the remaining trace elements. Iron can be 500 to 1, the remaining can be 3000 to 1 for example.

If I want to make a concentrate A+B for traces I am limited by the Iron Fe solubility. Say I instead made Iron by itself at "1 gallon container" 500:1 for 10ppm for me at 11% FeDPTA I get 171.833g (0% error over all) and instructions to add 2ml per liter of final solution... But now this frees me to get into the thousands to one ratios on the remaining trace elements here's some examples.. Both 1 Liter examples and neither give you an error in Hydrobuddy

5000 to 1 Mix (0.2mL of B per liter of final nutrient solution) **500g / .01g ***
B 5 ppm Error is 0% +/- 0%
Zn 4.9998 ppm Error is -0.004% +/- 0%
Mn 5 ppm Error is 0% +/- 0%
Cu 1.001 ppm Error is 0.1% +/- 0%
Mo 0.0899 ppm Error is -0.1111% +/- 1%

MgSO4 mass = 0 g
ZnSO4 mass = 109.925 g
MnSO4 mass = 76.917 g
CuSO4 mass = 19.667 g
H3BO3 mass = 143 g
Na2MoO4 mass = 1.133 g


I like this 1000 to 1 because it fits my 30g / .001g scale but I do realize 3% error on Mo, meh

1000 to 1 Mix (1mL of B per liter of final nutrient solution)
B 5 ppm Error is 0% +/- 0%
Zn 4.9998 ppm Error is -0.004% +/- 0%
Mn 5 ppm Error is 0% +/- 0%
Cu 1.001 ppm Error is 0.1% +/- 0%
Mo 0.0899 ppm Error is -0.1111% +/- 3%

MgSO4 mass = 0 g
ZnSO4 mass = 21.985 g
MnSO4 mass = 15.383 g
CuSO4 mass = 3.933 g
H3BO3 mass = 28.6 g
Na2MoO4 mass = 0.227 g
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
Mejuana, I originally posted this in the Fatman DIY thread:

The solubility is @ 25C. Solubility increases with higher temp, decreases with lower temp. i didn't find the solubility of iron eddha.

Boric acid 57 g/L
Zinc sulfate 220 g/L
Copper sulfate 320 g/L
Manganese sulfate 393 g/L

I thought your precipitate problem might be due to your 1000:1...but your boric acid is well below the solubility limit (the least soluble salt). Did you dissolve each salt, one by one, from least soluble to most soluble? (start from salts at the top of the list and go down) perhaps all those sulfates don't like being confined together? note that the error on Mo is 0.111%!! you can use your solution at 1/3 strength...which is triple digit variation :)
 
MeJuana

MeJuana

320
43
So then falling to the bottom is majorly bad, I have been using it still lol Also I thought 3% was over all on the 1000:1..

I don't email Daniel Fernandez like was suggested to me I will work it out myself. I guess I will try mixing more water and seeing what happens, I hope these salts were sold to me correctly.. My Iron isn't precipitating out but it is all by itself.. I guess I will work on mixing a new batch this weekend..
 
MeJuana

MeJuana

320
43
I decided to just concentrate each trace one by one into their own container. This gives me a lot of power for example with Mo I have a couple of values I use .03 and .09 so I can make a mix that is .03 and then just tripple it to get to .09.. Overall I see a 0% error at 50,000:1..




Edited (had question about error but I think I got it now)
 
MeJuana

MeJuana

320
43
Also 50000:1 is too little of an amount of your trace mix to measure out so I didn't go that high
 

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