Smallzz's 5 Steps to bigger outdoor plants

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caregiverken

caregiverken

Fear Not!
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couple more Great posts from Blaze!

The wood boxes with wire bottoms are Fast and easy and can be cheap!
I was worried about critters chewing those smart pots till I saw Seamaidens photos
My cats like to use the smart pots as a scratching post too!:p

So I guess Im sticking to the wood boxes
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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Yeah it is amazing how fast they will fill up their space. Most of my beds are the equivalent of a 500 gallon pot and I still find roots out to the edge of the bed within a few weeks of planting. I thought they were plenty big enough when I first built them, but my plants have still ended up pretty root bound by the end of the season the last few years. When I re-do my garden I will probably put it a single 84' x 8 or 10' wide bed for 6 plants (equivalent to 10,000+ gallons).


I remember hearing stories about the "kings of the mountain" in humboldt, some guys who owned their own little hill. Apparently they built raised soil beds on a hillside that were four feet tall, and ten foot by ten foot. South facing hill, plants that got over two stories tall. I would like to test some of this out in person some year to see how much of it was fable and how much was fact, but I suspect that the biggest limiting factor for most outdoor growers is soil capacity (so I'm inclined to believe some of it anyway!).
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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@Blaze-

I hear you on the heat of the smart pots, that's why I prefer to insulate mine to keep from heat pruning the roots. I still prefer smart pots for the air pruning over raised beds.

I also kind of disagree with the LST outdoors point, but that could be my inexperience talking. I see lots of similarities between outdoor and indoor growing, and to me the sun is nothing but a giant 1000W HPS/MH on a huge light mover. That being the case, unless you have sun exposure from dawn till dusk, it seems to me like you better utilize the available sunlight by LSTing your plants in such a way that they can take advantage of the available light. Now if you did have perfect exposure from dawn till dusk, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, so I think it comes down to whether or not your plants have optimum exposure.
 
Blaze

Blaze

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I suspect that the biggest limiting factor for most outdoor growers is soil capacity (so I'm inclined to believe some of it anyway!).

I suspect the same, I am pretty sure you could have a plant fill a 10' x 10' bed if all the conditions were just right. It is definitely possible to get plants two stories tall, I've got a buddy that had a few that were almost 18' this year. His sunlight isn't the best though, so the yield wasn't as much as you would think for how big they were, and part of the reason they go so tall is that they were reaching for sunlight. Still was pretty amazing to see the tops of his plant over the roof of his house when you pulled up though LoL.

Now if you did have perfect exposure from dawn till dusk, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, so I think it comes down to whether or not your plants have optimum exposure.

My garden is about as close as you can get from dawn till dusk, so yes I do have very optimal exposure. Which reminds me of a very important, if not the most important point to getting big plants outside:

Solar exposure and location! The location and orientation of your garden is the single most important factor to consider in my opinion. The more sun you get, the bigger your plants will get, the more they will yield, and the fatter and more resinous your buds will be.

Factors to consider when selecting a site:

Aspect and Slope. You want you garden on a southern aspect, ideally with a slight slope. A slight southern slope will not only help with drainage as Smallzz pointed out, but will actually increase your solar exposure. This is especially important the farther north you go. For example, a garden with a 5 degree slope to the south at 43 latitude, will actually have the same solar exposure as level land 300 miles further south. A southwest slope is preferable to a southeastern slope as it will take less direct solar radiation to evaporate dew or frost in the morning.

Air Drainage and Elevation. Plants need fresh air, even outside! A low area with no air movement will create all sorts of problems like increased mold and mildew, and will stay colder at night. Cold air is heavier than warm air, and will flow downslope, collecting in hollows and valleys. A garden that is on a hillside or near the top of a slope is better protected from frosts and cold air and will warm up quicker in the morning, and in the spring and fall when the weather is cooler. Cold air drainage can result in a longer growing season by as much as a few weeks at both the beginning and end of the season. This is one of the reasons you do not want your garden on a valley floor - the hills are definitely better for growing cannabis! Also, higher elevation will increase your solar exposure, just like aspect and slope does. Ideally you want your garden a few hundred feet off the valley floor, and if possible, above the fog line.

Wind Protection: Excessive wind cause physical damage to the plants, slowing their growth. It also will contribute to soil erosion. Use windbreaks as needed, and don't put your garden in a windy location if you can help it. A general rule of thumb is that a windbreak will improve growing conditions for a distance of up to 20 times the height of the break. So a 6' fence/windbreak will improve growing conditions of up to 120' from the windbreak itself. This is the main reason you will notice in pics I post of my garden, there is always a 6' tall fence around the edge with reed screening. It's not to block the view - it's to block the wind. Don't overdo the windbreaks and shade out your garden though - trading less wind for less sun is usually not a good idea.

Sunshine. Every effort should be made to take full advantage of you sunlight. If you have a tree shading your garden, cut it down and plant two more elsewhere. Even a passing shadow for a few hours will reduce your size and yield considerably.

Water. Make sure it is of good quality (get an ag water test!) and there is plenty of it. Don't rely on seasonal springs of streams, they are too unreliable. Ideally you want year-round spring or stream, or a pond. Wells can also work well, but the require a pump, and can have pH and excessive mineral issues. A gravity feed system for irrigation is always preferable - no pumps or moving parts to break or maintain. Gravity does all the work for you, and gravity never fails.

Security. Your garden should never, ever be visible from public roads. The more out of view it is, the better. The more people that see your garden, the more likely you will be busted or ripped off. This can sometimes be hard to balance with the other aspects to consider, since having a garden in a shady hollow will obviously be more out of view. Use your judgement on this one.

If you aren't using smart pots or beds, then the native soil is something to consider. However I can speak from experience that growing in ground or in native soil is not ideal, so this is not something I consider anymore when selecting a site since I know the soil will be imported.
 
Confuten1

Confuten1

exploitin strengths - perfectin weaknessess
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I suspect the same, I am pretty sure you could have a plant fill a 10' x 10' bed if all the conditions were just right. It is definitely possible to get plants two stories tall, I've got a buddy that had a few that were almost 18' this year. His sunlight isn't the best though, so the yield wasn't as much as you would think for how big they were, and part of the reason they go so tall is that they were reaching for sunlight. Still was pretty amazing to see the tops of his plant over the roof of his house when you pulled up though LoL.



My garden is about as close as you can get from dawn till dusk, so yes I do have very optimal exposure. Which reminds me of a very important, if not the most important point to getting big plants outside:

Solar exposure and location! The location and orientation of your garden is the single most important factor to consider in my opinion. The more sun you get, the bigger your plants will get, the more they will yield, and the fatter and more resinous your buds will be.

Factors to consider when selecting a site:

Aspect and Slope. You want you garden on a southern aspect, ideally with a slight slope. A slight southern slope will not only help with drainage as Smallzz pointed out, but will actually increase your solar exposure. This is especially important the farther north you go. For example, a garden with a 5 degree slope to the south at 43 latitude, will actually have the same solar exposure as level land 300 miles further south. A southwest slope is preferable to a southeastern slope as it will take less direct solar radiation to evaporate dew or frost in the morning.

Air Drainage and Elevation. Plants need fresh air, even outside! A low area with no air movement will create all sorts of problems like increased mold and mildew, and will stay colder at night. Cold air is heavier than warm air, and will flow downslope, collecting in hollows and valleys. A garden that is on a hillside or near the top of a slope is better protected from frosts and cold air and will warm up quicker in the morning, and in the spring and fall when the weather is cooler. Cold air drainage can result in a longer growing season by as much as a few weeks at both the beginning and end of the season. This is one of the reasons you do not want your garden on a valley floor - the hills are definitely better for growing cannabis! Also, higher elevation will increase your solar exposure, just like aspect and slope does. Ideally you want your garden a few hundred feet off the valley floor, and if possible, above the fog line.

Wind Protection: Excessive wind cause physical damage to the plants, slowing their growth. It also will contribute to soil erosion. Use windbreaks as needed, and don't put your garden in a windy location if you can help it. A general rule of thumb is that a windbreak will improve growing conditions for a distance of up to 20 times the height of the break. So a 6' fence/windbreak will improve growing conditions of up to 120' from the windbreak itself. This is the main reason you will notice in pics I post of my garden, there is always a 6' tall fence around the edge with reed screening. It's not to block the view - it's to block the wind. Don't overdo the windbreaks and shade out your garden though - trading less wind for less sun is usually not a good idea.

Sunshine. Every effort should be made to take full advantage of you sunlight. If you have a tree shading your garden, cut it down and plant two more elsewhere. Even a passing shadow for a few hours will reduce your size and yield considerably.

Water. Make sure it is of good quality (get an ag water test!) and there is plenty of it. Don't rely on seasonal springs of streams, they are too unreliable. Ideally you want year-round spring or stream, or a pond. Wells can also work well, but the require a pump, and can have pH and excessive mineral issues. A gravity feed system for irrigation is always preferable - no pumps or moving parts to break or maintain. Gravity does all the work for you, and gravity never fails.

Security. Your garden should never, ever be visible from public roads. The more out of view it is, the better. The more people that see your garden, the more likely you will be busted or ripped off. This can sometimes be hard to balance with the other aspects to consider, since having a garden in a shady hollow will obviously be more out of view. Use your judgement on this one.

If you aren't using smart pots or beds, then the native soil is something to consider. However I can speak from experience that growing in ground or in native soil is not ideal, so this is not something I consider anymore when selecting a site since I know the soil will be imported.

Blaze u get that outta book or something lol. on the real straight science right there and ther pixs to back it up!
cool thread smallz

confu
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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Thanks for keeping the positive input rolling, guys. It's this kind of discussion that keeps the community going in a positive direction. :)
 
K

kolah

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nice post for outdoor growers. thanks all..and thanks for keeping it civil.

As for specifically commenting about what I am growing and about posting pictures, I too no longer choose to go that route. Lots of great advice can be shared without putting people at risk. To each his own though.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Nobody on this forum knows how to get huge plants better than Blaze!
:woot:

Where did you get the felt cloth?

Landscape supply company, where I got my last load of organic soil because my regular guy was two full weeks out for having any. It was down in the valley. It's a professional landscaper's cloth, and I honestly cannot remember if I kept the labels or not. It's incredibly TOUGH, and 300'x3' was less than $30. $25 for the hardware cloth, and I don't know what the conduit cost, but I still have the majority of the cloth left over.

Heat is one of the reasons I have come to prefer raised beds to smart pots. That outer edge never gets nearly as hot with a raised bed. Building wooden beds is more expensive than smart pots however. They will last longer, so if you figure you will be at a spot for more than a season or two, the extra expense is worth while. The home made smart pots like Seamiaden showed are by far your cheapest container option, and they work great. They do take some extra time though, which is something that should always be kept in mind. Time is money after all!
A little extra time to build, a whole lot of time saved in ease of filling and being able to support the plants throughout the season. Each pot took a total of 15mins to build, a little longer to fill because I do teeny tiny shovels-full. I will be eschewing SmartPots themselves in favor of my homemade option from now on, assuming another raised bed won't be built instead. This homemade option is, by FAR, the least expensive option. Even less expensive than the straw bale method (4 bales, set on their sides at end to end).
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I remember hearing stories about the "kings of the mountain" in humboldt, some guys who owned their own little hill. Apparently they built raised soil beds on a hillside that were four feet tall, and ten foot by ten foot. South facing hill, plants that got over two stories tall. I would like to test some of this out in person some year to see how much of it was fable and how much was fact, but I suspect that the biggest limiting factor for most outdoor growers is soil capacity (so I'm inclined to believe some of it anyway!).

There ya go. Now, here's an observation I've made every year since I started doing this, and it contradicts conventional wisdom (including that often shared by Blaze). I see my best plants in the deepest planters. Conventional cannabis cultivation wisdom says they need width, not depth. My experience says they really need depth with sufficient width. And they cannot penetrate my clay to sufficient depth, so I make that depth by my planter boxes/pots. My very first raised bed is just over 2' deep, and it reliably gives me 4lb apiece plants, even with zero care (I love that I can just ignore the plant and still get my flowers). They always hit a minimum of 8' tall in that bed, usually closer to 10'. I can no longer use that bed because it is in what the county has deemed a legal 'viewshed', though, and since it's visible from the road/driveway, I'm relegated to the shallow beds. In these beds I have yet to get a plant hitting 8' tall. They are 18" deep as recommended to me by pretty much everyone I know who does this thing well.
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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I think 18" is too shallow personally, despite as you said common knowledge. Of course on of the problems you run into when the soil gets much deeper is the soil above it compacting, and creating a runoff to the side of the container before the water you're using gets low enough to saturate the soil below. That's why I built my own drip emitters that were a mix of a fine misting spray, and a soaker, and used four per 100 gal smart pot (I'd recommend even more for you and your size/volume). The soaking function works good for counteracting the problem I mentioned.

You can test it for yourself sometime, just water one of your home built smart pots like you normally would, but without a plant in it. Then when you're done, use a shovel to till it until you find dry soil. It wont be too far down unless you use a soaker in my experience anyway.

How i got a soaker and a mister at the same time was to use a home built mister head that was rated for a much higher pressure capacity than I was putting through it, and then let 'er rip. Having the lower pressure going through the higher capacity head creates the soaking function where you place the dripper, so just spread 'em out where you want the soil to be saturated and adjust your mist from there. Hope this all makes sense, it's early for me. =P
 
Blaze

Blaze

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Blaze u get that outta book or something lol. on the real straight science right there and ther pixs to back it up!
cool thread smallz

confu

Most of that post was para-phrasing my notes on land selection from "The New Organic Grower - A Master's Manual of Tools and Techniques for the Home and Market Gardener" by Eliot Coleman. It is an excellent book, I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in organic growing.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Oh! I COMPLETELY forgot to mention that this year I cover cropped, and it made a HUGE difference in a whole bunch of things, especially keeping the soil moisture even and where cannabis likes it. I used a mix of clover, amaranth, fenugreek... and I think that's it. Yeah, I use a lot of fenugreek because it stays low to the ground and sets seed pretty quickly/easily, the greens are delicious and so is the seed, and it's easy to keep going. Bet the amaranth is, too, and it's very pretty when it gets big. Just make sure the seed heads are pointing AWAY from your girls!

I have that book. The problem for me is applying stuff like the row spacing, simply for the lay of our land and not having enough flat. That's where using permaculture principles can be far more helpful, creating edges, water sinks, etc.
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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You'll have to go more in depth on the cover cropping, it's something I was really interested in this year and want to continue to learn about for future years to come!
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I just did it. I also had Dave get me some cordless hedge shears and I used those through the growing season to keep the cover crop from coming up through the cannabis. I let it get, oh... maybe a foot high? Then, took it down to 8" or so and kept it to between 6"-8". It died in some pots because the cannabis grew so wide it shaded out too much sunlight, but the point was to keep the soil evenly moist, and the shading did that. In the raised beds the effect was much more noticeable. I fed maybe.... six times? Just chopped & dropped.
 
K

kolah

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I thought MJ roots (if they have choice) tend to grow out more laterally than deep. In my Greenhouse (and this is only my observation) even though I dug all my beds down 3 feet the roots seem to spread out a lot more than they go deep. . Thoughts?
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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@ Sea- See, I managed to gleam more information from you. Muahahaha
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I thought MJ roots (if they have choice) tend to grow out more laterally than deep. In my Greenhouse (and this is only my observation) even though I dug all my beds down 3 feet the roots seem to spread out a lot more than they go deep. . Thoughts?

Are you sure you watered enough to soak all the way through all three feet of soil? Roots go where they find moisture, so your results may say more about your watering regimen than any preference of the plant's.
 

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