No Til Amending Question

[shemshemet]

I'd like to start a discussion about re-amending a no-til container garden.

My mystery is rock dust.

After adding the initial spur of rock dusts to my mix, first when does the rock dust break down to the point more is needed?

Second, how much rock dust should be added to a no-til container after a harvest?

Third, and most important to me, what is the best way to incorporate rock dusts to a no-til container?

The mystery is that the soil needs mineralization at some point, these types of amendments are not mobile in the soil, and if we were to til the rock dust in, there will be a disruption of the soil I have been tending.

What gives?

 

[Kronikcowboy]

Water it in with spikes?

 

[shemshemet]

With spikes? So don't til it in but, get it down there with a tube?

Still feel as though it would clump up in the areas applied, but may be the only way

 

[Seamaiden]

Some tilling is necessary, and frankly I personally don't get the ideas behind using no-till methods in containers. The whole idea behind no-till is to build up soils, outside, not store-bought soils that will exist entirely bereft of contact with the earth. It is, or at least should be in my mind, a response to the damage done to the larger soil food web, which by definition is most important where it really matters--on land.

That said, in my experience almost everything needs to be 'tilled' (in pots I scratch it in) into the soil, at least at the very surface because if you don't it has a real tendency to crust up. Something like bat guano, for example, absolutely MUST be tilled or scratched in because if you don't there's a very real possibility of it crusting up and causing big problems further down the road.

Another answer is to mix it into a solution, keep it suspended as well as possible and water in. However, in my experience, this leads to a layer being formed just the same as if you top-dressed without scratching it into the soil.

 

[alaskind]

Lmfao..... this ems to be just another chapter in the "holier than thou" growers club. Why no till? Cause all the uber-hippys are doin it! Wait is is even cool to say Uber-hippy? I dunno? Maybe I need to consult my cage free, vegan, fair trade, extra organic, zero karmic load product seller and see if they are marketing a bottled nute line yet... hmmmmmmm...

 

[shemshemet]

Lmfao..... this ems to be just another chapter in the "holier than thou" growers club. Why no till? Cause all the uber-hippys are doin it! Wait is is even cool to say Uber-hippy? I dunno? Maybe I need to consult my cage free, vegan, fair trade, extra organic, zero karmic load product seller and see if they are marketing a bottled nute line yet... hmmmmmmm...

Seriously? I tried to make a real discussion, and I'm holier than thou?

Why no till for me?

1. Its easier. I don't have to bother mixing my soil every harvest. Main reason right there for you. Because I am lazy.

2. Greater Microbial Biomass.


3. This is new territory, and it is exciting to stand behind something that is not only beneficial to the plant I am growing, but to agriculture in general. Conventional farming needs to be pushed and pushed into the background so that methods like this can shine.

You can go be an asshole to those who inquire, I'll keep searching.

Thanks for contributing seamaiden, I guess this brings us in a circle to the first part of the mystery. How long do rock dusts take to become useless? Is it possible the initial application will do its job for years to come? And then my worries of disrupting the soil (that I have my own personal reasons for) should go away?

To add more over time one could simply mix amendments with compost/worm castings/medium, and top dress with that?

Or could they be added slowly, mixed into suspension as best as possible and watered to the plants in small amounts? One could try to water in from the top of the pot, or attempt to water from underneath and hope that at least some of the dust was brought into the container?

 

[Seamaiden]

Thanks for contributing seamaiden, I guess this brings us in a circle to the first part of the mystery. How long do rock dusts take to become useless? Is it possible the initial application will do its job for years to come? And then my worries of disrupting the soil (that I have my own personal reasons for) should go away?

The answer to that is as much a function of the soil biota as the type of rock dust itself, which I cannot state as empirical fact but is my opinion. I'm going off memory here, based on Eliot Coleman's recommendations, and IIRC it's either greensand or... SRT? (soft rock phosphate) that takes a couple of years to become bioavailable, but IIRC that is not necessarily true of all rock dusts. What I do is add it in with the idea being that it will become useful in a couple of years' time, and I continue to add very small amounts as I harvest plants. If you were returning the bulk of the harvested plant material back to the soil then you would be returning those amendments. Since we harvest the whole plant and return little to no material, I feel reamending is appropriate.

To add more over time one could simply mix amendments with compost/worm castings/medium, and top dress with that?

Yes, absolutely, as long as you're careful to avoid/prevent crusting over, which disallows any incorporation or bio-availability. This is, to my mind, the easiest method assuming soil volume doesn't become a problem.

Or could they be added slowly, mixed into suspension as best as possible and watered to the plants in small amounts? One could try to water in from the top of the pot, or attempt to water from underneath and hope that at least some of the dust was brought into the container?

I don't think trying to feed via bottom watering these types of substances would work. While the water will most certainly move up via capillary action, the suspended solids will drop out of suspension and thus will not be wicked up into the soil. Watering it into the soil can work, but again, be cognizant of that crusting issue.

@alaskind -- if you research the Dust Bowl, you'll learn that these methods and techniques go beyond what's cool. They are extremely important part of the soil-building toolbox, as important as keeping the soil covered with some form of plant life, as important as buffer strips, as important as erosion control.

 

[Blaze]

Good to see a no-till discussion, I've been very curious about this process as well. I think as long as you scratch whatever it is you are applying, whether it be rock dust, compost, or bone meal, you should be good to go. Most of the feeder roots as well as most of the biological and chemical activity in soil is in those top few inches anyway, so I don't think the plant will have any trouble feeding off the rock dust in that top layer.

I've actually got a pretty good sized no-till experiment going in my light dep greenhouse this year. I did half of my plants with no-till and half 'normal'. I did it every-other plant so they are spread across the entire greenhouse evenly, and with all 8 strains I've got going. So far the no-till plants have averaged a slightly higher growth rate and show no signs of nutrient deficiencies or imbalances or any other problems. I'll also be tracking yields as well once we harvest. It has already become apparent that many nutrients move down through the soil in a no till system VERY rapidly, within a matter of days.

At this point the biggest advantage I am seeing with the no till is the massive amount of labor it saves. Based off this first run, the no-till method cuts the soil prep labor by at least 50%. That alone makes it absolutely worthwhile. I guess saving labor is uber-hippy nonsense according to some. What a stupid move, saving time and money and all that, right?

@alaskind , the fact is that as of 2009, 88 million acres in the USA are now being farmed with no-till methods, with more farms, both organic and conventional, converting every year. This should tell you there is definitely something to it. Maybe you should do your research first before trash talking people and making ignorant uniformed comments.

 

[shemshemet]

Blaze-

The thing that sea so poetically pointed out (in stark contrast to alask) is that the benefits are seen in fields and not in containers. There is room for discussion, to see if it makes as much sense in containers than it may in fields. I have also seens lots of information that points to variability with no-til. In some areas improvements are great, but in a place with possibly less rainfall, no-til does no show improvement.

This is an interesting time, and I think a very exciting prospect, that the cannabis culture may have had a large part in a much more eco-friendly growing system.

So I am thinking the best way to reintroduce rock dusts is in small doses with watering, or mixed into a top dressing of castings/peat/whatever else.

Just don't "let it get crusty".

 

[kuz]

What size containers? I would think they would have to be about 200 or 300 gallons. My first plants in living soil will be coming down in about a month. I was thinking of soaking em-1 into the containers, and hope it eats up the roots.

 

[shemshemet]

Size 5 nursery pots....

2-3 hundred gallons indoors? That's a bed forsure

 

[leadsled]

Appears it takes some time for the rock dust to become available for plants, based off what I see in doing soil testing.
Added glacial rock dust and then test the soil. Lacking in trace minerals.Same goes for lettting the soil sit for 2 months. Soil is lacking trace elements.
I see the trace mineral levels climbing after a few months but have applied other sources of trace elements. (Sulfates)

Best to get a soil test, then see if you need to add more rock dust. If you have ample trace minerals no need to apply more rock dust. Best to keep track of what is being applied.
That way you do not end up in a "more-on" situation.
LEt me explain:
My concern is this. Rock dust was added. Then rock dust added again and again. Then the day comes where the minerals become available. Now you got an abundance of trace minerals. That could lead to problems, since the trace elements are directly related to availability of the antagonist cations or anions.

As far as adding rock dust to a no till setup.
Probably best to top dress the rock dust on top of your no till cover crop. Then put compost on top of that.

One word of warning about No till. Make sure to include some diversity in your tillage. Heard a story of a farmer solely using one type of grass in no till. After years of doing this treatment the fungi population exploded. There was not any diversity and then he ended up with a overpopulation of decomposing fungi. The fungi started taking over plants and decomposing them in addition to the ground cover.

I recall hearing John Kempf speak about that problem during a conference.
No till is also discussed in the book nutrition rules by Graeme Sait. Some talk about the pros and cons of no till.
Hope that helps, great topic!

 

[shemshemet]

@leadsled

Awesome post! Thanks for the no-till tips.

With rock dust, I believe, there is more to them than just their trace mineral value.

-Increased Water Retention
-Increased CEC
-"foothold" for fungi - Is this even true?

I can't find any others at this moment.

Will rock dusts lose effectiveness over time, if not just their trace mineral values are important, but their physical properties are a big part?

 

[LadyL.Bean]

from what I'm understanding is that you apply the rock minerals once and only reamend with your fertilizers. the rock minerals are fertilizers but like said above, they take a long time and are mainly for increasing microbial activity somehow. the plant gets its micronutrients from the TM7 they apply mainly along with the kelp meal. so they mainly focus on EWC or compost topdressings with kelp, crab, and neem meals all mixed up with rice hulls or pumice to help with crusting. I like to add worms to my containers and then dust on meals to the surface and cover it with compost, comfrey, and neem. they leave piles of castings and I haven't had any compaction issues like I was using other stuff to top dress with.

indoors, its really all about being lazy and finding new ways to be lazy. SST has now become a malted barley flour top dress then you just water in the rest of the recipe. hydrated kelp paste to add to water for a ready to go kelp tea. you can even top dress the aloe powder so all you water in is fulvic, silica, etc.

 

[Seamaiden]

Hi LadyL.Bean! What's TM7?

I love reading about the malted barley folks are using, I really think I was the first one to try it, to excellent results.

 

[kuz]

TM-7. A product from bioag. humic acid and micro nutes. What is SST?

Paramagnetic rock creates an electromagnetic field that somehow benefits the microbes. Thats what I read anyway, no clue really, but I figured it couldnt hurt. I wasnt going to bring it up because it does sound like some weird hippie voodoo. I found a lot of info from a company out of Australia called nutri-tech.

 

[rubthe nub]

Paramagnetic rock creates an electromagnetic field that somehow benefits the microbes. Thats what I read anyway, no clue really, but I figured it couldnt hurt. I wasnt going to bring it up because it does sound like some weird hippie voodoo. I found a lot of info from a company out of Australia called nutri-tech

Yeah man, you need to get some dilithium crystals in there
then build a pyramid over the top
combination of pyramid power and dilithium crystals they'll go crazy:rolleyes:

 

[shemshemet]

SST is sprouted seed tea. There are lots of articles and blogs on it. Basically lots of enzymes. Depending on the seeds you use, plenty of growth hormone as well (alfalfa for triacontinol** as example)

A buddy of mine is cousins with the guy who invented the grounding things. You plug them into the wall (not using electricity, just grounding the probe) and stick the probe into your soil.

I wonder if it is the same at all? With the para-magnetic rocks?

 

[50YardLine]

I agree with lead slead.

I like to just sprinkle whatever I am topdressing right on top of my cover crops and water in. It's as simple as that. I do however till in the off season. I grow green manure cover crops in the winter that get tilled to add organic matter to the soil.

 

[LadyL.Bean]

Super Sprouted Teas can shorten flowering by 7-10 days, improve growth, and bud onset. Two of the enzymes in malted barley grain are chitinase to break down chitin and phosphatase for phosphorus. Fungi also love barley grain. Using malted whole barley grain seeds make everything easier cause it's pregerminated and preserved ready to use. 2 row and 6 row barley is best and you buy it at a home brew store for beers. Well these enzymes help as a go between in building processes and these can be sped up using fulvic acid.

I like to add malted barley ground into a flour using a coffee grinder and sprinkle on the soil. I use four cups every 4x4 bed or a 100 gallons every two weeks. Then I just water with 1 teaspoon silica, 10 ml fulpower, and 1/4 cup of aloe. If you want to use it as a tea you just use 1 oz of the ground grain and bubble no longer than four hours. Add aloe at the end. You can use alfalfa at half rate cause it's strong or corn which has cytokins. Quinoa and chia have been used too. Alfalfa and corn have to be sprouted first, water drained, then filled again to soak. I think that's how it's done but one should look that part up as I've only use the flour as a top dress or tea so it was already sprouted.

TM7 is applied every other week but some like to do it monthly as it can be over applied easily. :)