Synthetic Vs. Organic: Not So Black And White

[DrFever]

When you break it really down pretty simple look at a organic grown plant,, vegged 4 - 5 weeks then look at a chem grown plant :) were growing weed here folks lol were trying to get the most yield possible and again Chem will always win in that field ..
If organic gardening was so good put it this way if tomorrow all farms switched to organic grown how much more people would starve to death in the world ,,
Simple as that
2 plants same strain one grown organic one chem vegged same amount of time which plant do you think would win in yield , size , and health ,,
People tend to use the excuse well so much N or other chemicals are being leached away when conventional farming ,,,
As compared to organic this is not True folks this is where mathematics horticulture comes into play ..
Even when growing indoor problem is people tend to overdose there plants thinking its going to do better
Give them right amounts and things will be in check..
Organic farming or even organic Grown MJ most people at best have major issues .. Plants at beginning of growth suffer and at end where soil is depleted , Hence the tea craze
Also people tend to think organic farming is so much better when in fact its not more land needs to be used to compete with conventional, leaching issues also occur actually even more then conventional .
You get the grower saying guano lol well true organics is really using natural products from your geological area ..
organics is great for when your growing veggies fruits out door in door you do not get the insects to help with the actual cycle
the soil is man made not natural with additives so really who the hell are we fooling insects are a important part of the organics,, but of course we took that out of the equation lol
ITs funny sometimes when you read threads in organic section ,, deficiencies add epsom salt make a tea this is not done in nature so again were screwing around
I grow organics out door only and my soil consists of 40 percent compost, 40 percent top soil , 10 percent fresh grass clippings 5 percent cardboard , and 5 percent worms
Rain water fed only like mother nature intended no teas no fertilizer , no additives .
Only what mother nature throws down on the plants as for water and plants are growing true organic state .. how mother nature intended and with even one in force flower she is healthy and green only thing i do is add fresh grass clippings on top soil rain water only ..
This is organics no teas no ferts nothing plants open to the elements of insects you name it
But indoor we cannot duplicate it 100 percent so why bother there for chem in door organic outdoor

 

[DrFever]

PS the ones in bush are almost 8 footers the flowering plant is almost day 30 from forcing into flower

 

[gardnguyahoy]

When you break it really down pretty simple look at a organic grown plant,, vegged 4 - 5 weeks then look at a chem grown plant were growing weed here folks lol were trying to get the most yield possible and again Chem will always win in that field ..

2 plants same strain one grown organic one chem vegged same amount of time which plant do you think would win in yield , size , and health

Not all growers are strictly looking for much as i can fast as i can kind of crops. A lot of mj growers and smokers are real medical patients suffering from an array of symptoms and dont want to force synthetic drugs down their throat (chemical based) and the whole reaaon they smoke is to stay away from chemicals going in their body via pharma pills and mood stabalizers. I understand that theres organic mixtures out there that are a lot more poisonous and dangerous then most organic enthusiasts would like. And that guano and pete extraction is fucking up our enviorenment. But truthfully theres a lot worse shit happening in the world that i cant do anything about. So im not gonna let some shitty things in the world stop me from AT LEAST ATTEMPTING to be health conscious.

Theres people out there dying of starvation, the mexican cartel is hacking women apart with pickaxes. It doesnt mean im gonna stop eating, and never use a pickaxe again. But i certainly wony support it.

So i think its absurd for you to knock on organic growers just becuase you arent one. Have you grown a plant organically AND chemically in perfect health and found this statement to be true? Why say that unless you have documented proof of two identical plants seeded at the same time in perfect health one organic one chemical. And even then, plants all grow differently. Some are stronger some arent. The only real way to tell is for you to become a full time organic grower, and report yield over a long period of time.

Im not knocking chemicals by any means. Im all for folks doing what they want and being happy. But one sided onslaughts trying to take a multitide of bad points to the organic side while letting slip all the negatives of the chems make no sense. Did you bring up how much poison goes into the air while their brewing all this chem fertilizer? No, of course not. Just knocking on organics and saying they are possibly having an effect on our eco system simply isnt a big enough point to mask all the horrid shit introduced to our eco system with chemical ferts being made. But the fact is, thats not the point. I dont support bat guano or pete moss. Im doing my part. What are you doing to help the eco system? Buying as cheap as possible and trying to squeeze every gram per watt you possibly can? Im simply not that kind of grower i dont grow for money. I grow to make meds. This isnt adding to a debate, simply stating an opinion. Im here to learn, not listen to uneducated biast points of view.

Sorry about that no harm intended, just frustrated that some folks cant see how one sided they think. I don't knock chemical ferts. I just try not to use synthetics. Im not a believer in taking pills to cope with society and life. So ill stand by my organics all day! But yeah, ill never knock chem ferts or those who use them. To each their own.

Anyways. Enough of that. Back to learning.

 

[Bulldog11]

Nobody has mentioned how we get chemical fertilizers. That alone should be enough for environmentally friendly people to choose organics. I would think, since popular belief seems to be oil is evil and all.

 

[hiiipower]

PLEASE!!! No one be discouraged from this thread by any people who may be getting a sore bum over this topic. I truly only brought this up because I know the people at the Farm here interested in learning(more than anywhere else), however hard it may be at times. I'm definitely not trying to discourage anyone from growing organically. I am also concerned with creating the highest quality medicine, and just wanted to point out that a perfectly legitimate way of creating that medicine(synthetics) COULD BE getting unjustifiably bashed in general in the growing community/entire world right now, due to a lack of knowledge. Key word is could be, I''m asking everyone who has any knowledge on this subject to contribute, then we can all decide what's good info and what's bad info. Isn't that what we do on this site every day! Read the full thread, read all the links, there is a lot of learning going on here, at least I think so.

I never knocked any organic growers or the style itself, and certainly didn't intend for it to come off that way, as I am an organic grower myself(I started growing my medicine organically and was blown away by the product, only recently have I started dabbling in dwc). I am currently playing around and having a blast with my new hydro setup, but I also have some living soil that's about to be planted in for my next round. Would really love for @squiggly to drop in. I honestly didn't know there was a resident chemist here at the Farm. That's so kick ass. Would've definitely just asked him directly about this had I know he existed. I did quickly search the Farm(and google) before typing the op, couldn't find anything related, my bad.

Not really trying to prove one is better than the other, I just wanna know what is what. Like the thread title says, I only wanted to show that this debate is many shades of gray, not black and white. So please, post everything you know about organics and synthetics, pros and cons, and let the learning continue!

 

[MrBelvedere]

"organic" vs "synthetic"... Surely if we could harness the forty million stoner man hours (myself included) have been spent on this "no clear winner" decision we could have (as a collective) engineered ourselves a UFO LED panel to fly all us growers to the moon and finally grow Space Weed.... :)

 

[Sativied]

Nobody has mentioned how we get chemical fertilizers. That alone should be enough for environmentally friendly people to choose organics. I would think, since popular belief seems to be oil is evil and all.

Fair enough. Synth fertilizer commonly includes socalled petroleum-based fertilizers. That is a misnomer though ( ). And while a "40-pound bag contains the equivalent of 2.5 gallons of gasoline" that would last me a lifetime, saving me quite a few trips to a garden center or hydro store.

Like @Seamaiden said, "Organic can be done right and it can be done wrong."
For example doing it wrong by buying lots of bags and buckets with socalled organic fertilizers from hydro stores and having those shipped from across the country or worse the planet.

For example, I used guano from some indonesian island, palm ash from another, "white virgin peat" from Sweden, perlite and hydroton from some volcano beach, bags and bags of soil (no garden, no place to compost). All for a few 3x4' mj grows... I'll spare you all the math but the nutrients I use for one round in hydro (I grow organic atm) contain the equivalent of roughly 0.3% of a gallon of gasoline. The thing is of course that synth nutes are highly concentrated and require far less "oil" than transportation of all those organic goodies.

Hydro can be done right or wrong too in this context. I think synth nutes can easily lead to higher pollution when used sloppy (ditching a hydro rez of 50 gallon at 1000ppm weekly for example) but my recirculating hydro tubes produce mostly roots and branches and leaves as waste, the minimal amount of nutrient solution I waste is barely higher in ppm than my tap water. 3 bottles of concentrated nutes last me years. That's a pretty big contrast with more wasteful synth nute grow methods.

 

[Wisher619]

From my understanding "Organic" means carbon based period...not Natural....I would think growing natural woul be way differ then organic....as well "Chemical" is man made while technically mineral salts are "Natural"....

I wish I could find the Article that I read in which I believe Cal Poly did a study by which Hydroponics destroyed conventional as well as organic gardening when it came to brix as well as nutrition density....

I'll look for the Article and post it when I can

But from my understanding of said article...Hydroponically grown produce is always in a sterile enviroment so pests are not a concern and they can control the + - ion exchange the greatest because of the controlled and monitored enviroment upping one element and or lowering another based on the plants needs

 

[hiiipower]

@MrBelvedere That might be the most accurate statement so far hahaha

@Wisher619 You're right organic means carbon based, not natural, necessarily. That's in the article I posted
"Organic is widely perceived to be of natural origin, yet organic compounds can be
synthesized, often with characteristics superior to those which are natural. Organic is the
chemistry of carbon, not the chemistry of natural. An organic compound that occurs
naturally in urine, urea (NH2)2CO, was first synthesized from inorganic components in 1828
by Fredrich Wohler. His work disproved the theory that organic compounds could only be
synthesized in living organisms through a vital “life force,” a mystic philosophy known as
Vitalism."

@Sativied yup agreed!

Also I misspoke in my last comment. Don't post pros and cons of organic and synthetic. I don't wish to debate which is better. @gardnguyahoy was right this is mostly a conversation of biology/chemistry(or something close to that). Let's try to keep it on track and talk about the science of nutrients and how they are applied in organic and synthetic, and how they may or may not be so different in the grand scheme(that is, elements being altered by either microorganisms or in a laboratory).

 

[Sativied]

.as well "Chemical" is man made while technically mineral salts are "Natural".

That would be mixing up "chemical" with "synthetic". Chemicals are naturally occurring as well, synthetics are man made though by a chemical process, in case of fertilizers to mimic naturally occurring chemicals.

Here's a good article specifically about the difference and "chemofobia"
http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/05/19/natural-vs-man-made-chemicals-dispelling-misconceptions/
Excerpt: "In these graphics, I wanted to emphasise the point that whether a chemical is natural or man-made tells us nothing about its toxicity. There are many chemical compounds, found naturally in plants, that are poisonous to humans in small amounts; similarly, there are many man-made compounds which are perfectly harmless unless ingested at very high doses."

 

[SpitXFire]

@Sativied bang on. I think it's pretty commonly held misconception that synthetics will necessarily leave something in the meds or is petrol derived. If anything it is natural gas not petrol, my whole point of knowing the basis of synthetic nutrients. I'm not here to bash, but I can't bite my tongue when (I believe) the majority of growers now are organic, and not just that they hold on to misconceptions, that led them to that decision and then use those misconceptions as points of contentions towards synthetics, when those are baseless.

And I meant hectares per individual, Ala grain grain growers/orchards. We're just seeing that now with legalization, people utilizing hectares for cannabis. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[SpitXFire]

And organics/synthetics imo are not mutually exclusive. You can utilize both. They are not diametrically opposed...

And @gardnguyahoy you're creating a false dichotomy and straw Manning synthetics. The cartel analogy was pointless, no one stated just because organics could be harmful to the environment means you are necessarily are included, just how you blanketedly stated that all synthetics are "terrible" for the enviroment doesn't make it so... Ie Potash is derived from pumping hot water and letting it evap off leaving the Potash, not altogether harmful to the enviroment, if that was the case might as well stop sea salt production. .. And I've seen tons of enviro harming runoff from organics as well, it's about the user application not the vehicle.

Also, we are as growers looking for speed, yield, and vigor within a squarefootage/time-frame. That's why we benchmark units per light, or measure by Sq footage, bc we have to be realistic, we usually have a minimum quota in order to make it worth growing, personal or commercial, if one thing lacks in yield or speed we try to make up for it by increasing plant counts or lighting or Sq footage, that absolutely applies. Thus the lower you could yield per plant means more medium, more ammendments,more fertilizer you use per grow. I doubt Amy of us would be happy with a lb vs 2 given the same parameters... That figures into what he meant.

 

[SpitXFire]

And yes organic means carbon based. That's it. it is a misnomer borne out of the concept of "the farm being an organism". In fact I got 2 organic Chem books laying around, for those that think chemicals and organic are terms that are mutually exclusive

 

[DrFever]

How many people tend to forget the chemical changing in organics and even micro life to make up the Carbon cycle ..
Organics is like a religion pick one ??? but before which one is true,, or which one have you been brainwashed to believe is true
Same thing applies for organics .. Organics allowed in one country may not pass as Organic in another right ,, So again if they do not have set rule in place across the board then really WTF
Do you grow fems seeds organically ??? sorry to hurt your feelings if chemicals were used to force them then oops its not organic FAR FROM IT
There was a post above kinda mentioning me being unfair or biased if i have done a documented side by side.
I have done both organic , and chem FARMING hectors of land as far as a person can see my friend and its safe to say we saw 45 percent loss in yield come fall time ...
That my friend is the difference of keeping a 270,000 dollar tractor
or bank coming to take it when its a persons lively hood
But were talking weed So what we can do is post pictures i guess aslong as everyone is truth full .. i suppose Right pics or it never happened :)
I Am very curious on the many die hard organic gardeners here ,,,,, Growing
weed ? How do you amended your soil, you get soil tests done or just winging it ??? you add manures :)

A new study on food safety reveals that organic produce may contain a significantly higher risk of fecal contamination than conventionally grown produce.

A recent comparative analysis of organic produce versus conventional produce from the University of Minnesota shows that the organically grown produce had 9.7 percent positive samples for the presence of generic E. coli bacteria versus only 1.6 percent for conventional produce on farms in Minnesota.

The study, which was published in May in the Journal of Food Protection, concluded, "the observation that the prevalence of E. coli was significantly higher in organic produce supports the idea that organic produce is more susceptible to fecal contamination."

In addition, the study found the food-borne disease pathogen salmonella only on the samples of organic produce. There was no evidence found of the deadly strain of bacteria, E. coli, in either type of produce tested. The study looked at "preharvest" fruits and vegetables, not in retail stores.

The principle investigator of the University of Minnesota study, Francisco Diez-Gonzalez, told CNSNews.com that "organic agriculture was more susceptible to carry fecal indicators."

"In many ways it is confirming what is believed, indeed, if you are using animal manure for fertilizer, the chances that you are going to get fecal bacteria on the product are greater," Diez-Gonzalez said.

The higher incidences of fecal contamination in organic foods were linked to heavy reliance on composted animal manure for fertilizer. Though conventionally grown produce may use some manure, it chiefly relies on chemical fertilizers. Past research has shown that animal manure is the principal source of pathogens such as salmonella, campylobacter and E. coli.

PS here is a plant chem fed in soil day 36 from 3" clone wonder if anyone can post there 36 day from clone plant grown organically i bet there will no be to many that size but hey show them pictures

 

[Wisher619]

Everything in the planter beds were transplanted 8 weeks ago at 1' tall...I hit the roots with Mycorrhizae and water with 5 gallons of RO water once and at 3 weeks foliar sprayed with EWC tea.....now the 5 gallon buckets are 420 blend soil with Botanicare CNS17 with PB TEA....
The planter bed plants I would call natural....no water no nutrients no anything except supercropping.....The 5 gal I water every 3 days

This is "All Natural"

 

[gardnguyahoy]

PLEASE!!! No one be discouraged from this thread by any people who may be getting a sore bum over this topic. I truly only brought this up because I know the people at the Farm here interested in learning(more than anywhere else), however hard it may be at times. I'm definitely not trying to discourage anyone from growing organically. I am also concerned with creating the highest quality medicine, and just wanted to point out that a perfectly legitimate way of creating that medicine(synthetics) COULD BE getting unjustifiably bashed in general in the growing community/entire world right now, due to a lack of knowledge. Key word is could be, I''m asking everyone who has any knowledge on this subject to contribute, then we can all decide what's good info and what's bad info. Isn't that what we do on this site every day! Read the full thread, read all the links, there is a lot of learning going on here, at least I think so.

I never knocked any organic growers or the style itself, and certainly didn't intend for it to come off that way, as I am an organic grower myself(I started growing my medicine organically and was blown away by the product, only recently have I started dabbling in dwc). I am currently playing around and having a blast with my new hydro setup, but I also have some living soil that's about to be planted in for my next round. Would really love for @squiggly to drop in. I honestly didn't know there was a resident chemist here at the Farm. That's so kick ass. Would've definitely just asked him directly about this had I know he existed. I did quickly search the Farm(and google) before typing the op, couldn't find anything related, my bad.

Not really trying to prove one is better than the other, I just wanna know what is what. Like the thread title says, I only wanted to show that this debate is many shades of gray, not black and white. So please, post everything you know about organics and synthetics, pros and cons, and let the learning continue!

I apologize if that came off harsh. Im thorougly reading this thread trying to learn myself. Im fascinated by this and i really would like to know...

Is organic REALLY lower yielding? Whos grown at their peak with both, with an understanding of both... I bet thats a tough grower to find. lol.

Is it really BETTER for you as a human trying to put organic only into the body? I swear these days i can taste the difference when i pick up a batch of buds thats been chemically fertilized. But that could be my biast imagination haha. I really dont know.

I swear, by now someone should be popping up with a ..."im gonna try it.." response soon, ohhhh i hope!

I know a lot of people are either on one side of the fence or the other "Organic is a scam" ..."im doing better for my body.." isnt it just as possible that the "organic is a scam" is a scam? And this chemist lady from the original article is some snatch being paid off by nestle to go on pop sci.com and tell everyone chemicals are created from natural elements. Theyre perfectly fine. And that the earth organically creates poison. Duh it does. But i dont put that stuff in my soil... Its possible. Maybe not nestle but you know what im trying to say.... I dont organic pesticide my garden... Sure i get some people out there might, but i DONT.
I use organic ferts in my garden. I want to put good shit into my body not bad. Carcinogens. Fuck man. Get that shit away from me!

I want to see some studies telling me more shit!!! Im trying to track them down myself. Lets find out whats REALLY goin on haha.
Let this conversation continue. Wheres @squiggly when you need him

 

[gardnguyahoy]

From my understanding "Organic" means carbon based period...not Natural....I would think growing natural woul be way differ then organic....as well "Chemical" is man made while technically mineral salts are "Natural"....

I wish I could find the Article that I read in which I believe Cal Poly did a study by which Hydroponics destroyed conventional as well as organic gardening when it came to brix as well as nutrition density....

I'll look for the Article and post it when I can

But from my understanding of said article...Hydroponically grown produce is always in a sterile enviroment so pests are not a concern and they can control the + - ion exchange the greatest because of the controlled and monitored enviroment upping one element and or lowering another based on the plants needs

Fascinating...i would love to read that. What about hydro-organic?

 

[Seamaiden]

Nobody has mentioned how we get chemical fertilizers. That alone should be enough for environmentally friendly people to choose organics. I would think, since popular belief seems to be oil is evil and all.

That was one of the main reasons why I started doing organic in the first place. That, and xenohormones.

There are many reasons behind my own decision to change how I'm doing things, from how I medicate and treat and feed my body to how I treat my land. I personally do indeed understand that all substances are chemicals, and that a huge part of the 'battle' we're fighting isn't just ignorance, but terminology and semantics.

 

[shemshemet]

It is not just organic vs synthetic.
The debate can't be had until the parameters are set.

"Organic" as a term has a handful of meanings.

For the debate even to begin, one must determine what they mean by organic. That's only a starting point, and needs to be opposed by something. "Synthetic" or Conventional farming could be the alternative, but many forget the infinite amount of systems plants can grown in. Sustainable, conservation, aquaponics, etc.

Where I believe the focus should be is in doing our best to live synergistic with our environments, in everything we do.

It reminds me of reversing desertification, and how it gives the thought of our place on this earth. A seemingly natural process, which destroys life and ecosystems, is best overcome using agriculture (which is not very common in that industry).

Everything we do has an impact on our environment. We ourselves are part of the environment. Our impact does not have to be negative, and can be synergistic if we choose. It is amazing that we as humans can reflect, and even more amazing if we reflect on how we can best live to enhance our environment.

About reversing desertification: http://ourworld.unu.edu/en/reversing-desertification-with-livestock

 

[Bulldog11]

Fair enough. Synth fertilizer commonly includes socalled petroleum-based fertilizers. That is a misnomer though ( ). And while a "40-pound bag contains the equivalent of 2.5 gallons of gasoline" that would last me a lifetime, saving me quite a few trips to a garden center or hydro store.

I'll spare you all the math but the nutrients I use for one round in hydro (I grow organic atm) contain the equivalent of roughly 0.3% of a gallon of gasoline. The thing is of course that synth nutes are highly concentrated and require far less "oil" than transportation of all those organic goodies.

Thanks for speaking my language of mathematics. You make a great point. Yes chem fertilizers come from oil, but at super low amounts. That makes a big difference when you put it into perspective like that. Thank you for sharing that bit of info.