Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

jumpincactus · Dec 14, 2016

So, here we are, you say the headline and said just what the hell is ole Cactusman up to now. :)

Well let me say as a preface, if this isnt a good place for this to be please be Mod friendly and I will move it to a spot/category better suited for this threads content. I did give it some thought upfront, but as such, with a category that can cover many variables, I opted to go with the smokers lounge.

I would like to start with a little history on the term "Snakeoil" I will provide the link and catch up on the term at your own leisure.

By extension, a snake oil salesman is someone who knowingly sells fraudulent goods or who is themselves a fraud, quack, or charlatan.

Dang I dont see no one like that round here. LOL....... Trust me, we / you are surrounded by them like it or not!!!

Here's the link http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/how-snake-oil-got-a-bad-rap/

Well you came back, did I get your curiosity up? I mean to tell you I have a potion, elixir and all things Snakeoil that will cure whatever ails you or your plants. :p

To be clear, this thread if allowed will run to cover all of the headliner material. If you have in the past or present wondered, or bought something that didn't perform as specified then this is where you need to share it. And to be fair to the site owner we might need to be careful on how or who we call out on services and products. We can be creative without starting a 3rd WW

Honestly tho, even tho anecdotal evidence is sort of legit in my mind, I really want to keep this thread based on science and if you bring something to the table, please do your due diligence to at least do some homework and have a study paper or link to back up your claim.

Now I know trolls are gunna love this shit, but really if you are going to call BS on something someone else or myself post's then at least be troll worthy and have some data to back you up!!!

I am going to kick this off with some research that has been done concerning the viability/efficacy of Mycorrhizae inoculations. You know that pretty stuff with fancy labels that all the AG companies tell you you can do without to grow good cannabis. Yea thats right, the stuff you can pay 25 or more for a few ounces of powder you have no idea what the hell is in it., or if it even works. Yup the stuff you put around your rhizosphere with the promise of healthier, stronger root ballz and such.

What I am talking about is the fact that study upon study I have researched has shown that very few inoculates sold in nurseries and grow shops or online very rarely or never germinate and create the web of life your told they do. So to back up my claim to this nonsense here is just 1 of the studies I have found that don't paint a pretty picture of the magic powder we/you all put into your transplants. You be the judge I'm just trying to share the love and save you some dinero$$$ You want mycho goodness, then inoculate with Native borne soils around where you live. The chances going with this route are much better for success using your own native soils. Just what the hell do great white sharks have to do with growin weed anyway. LOL Here is the myko study below

jumpincactus · Dec 14, 2016

I will post em as I see em and I welcome anyone with a legit concern and willingness to participate to do so and as mentioned in the season opener, please back your claims up as best you can. Terpinator anyone...... LOL

I swear by jesus my plants had no terps at all. Monday night I used terpinator and by Tuesday mornin my carbon filter couldn't keep up. It was clogged with trichomes... He he

I am callin on some of my old time amigos here at the farm to come inside and have a looksee, Hope to see you all soon,

@Ecompost @mancdank @rmoltis @stonestacker @thunderfudge @epitome @diamond2.0 @Bulldog420 @blazer @Seamaiden @LocalGrowGuy and to any one else that wants to join in. But please be verwwwy verwwwy careful, Dont rock the damn boat.

epitome · Dec 14, 2016

"I known all about what you want to know all about"

^^^ I suck at cut and paste but can someone add in the The House of a Thousand Corpse Rob Zombie gif in here ?

epitome · Dec 14, 2016

jumpincactus said:
So, here we are, you say the headline and said just what the hell is ole Cactusman up to now. :)

Well let me say as a preface, if this isnt a good place for this to be please be Mod friendly and I will move it to a spot/category better suited for this threads content. I did give it some thought upfront, but as such, with a category that can cover many variables, I opted to go with the smokers lounge.

I would like to start with a little history on the term "Snakeoil" I will provide the link and catch up on the term at your own leisure.

By extension, a snake oil salesman is someone who knowingly sells fraudulent goods or who is themselves a fraud, quack, or charlatan.

Dang I dont see no one like that round here. LOL....... Trust me, we / you are surrounded by them like it or not!!!

Here's the link http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/how-snake-oil-got-a-bad-rap/

Well you came back, did I get your curiosity up? I mean to tell you I have a potion, elixir and all things Snakeoil that will cure whatever ails you or your plants. :p

To be clear, this thread if allowed will run to cover all of the headliner material. If you have in the past or present wondered, or bought something that didn't perform as specified then this is where you need to share it. And to be fair to the site owner we might need to be careful on how or who we call out on services and products. We can be creative without starting a 3rd WW

Honestly tho, even tho anecdotal evidence is sort of legit in my mind, I really want to keep this thread based on science and if you bring something to the table, please do your due diligence to at least do some homework and have a study paper or link to back up your claim.

Now I know trolls are gunna love this shit, but really if you are going to call BS on something someone else or myself post's then at least be troll worthy and have some data to back you up!!!

I am going to kick this off with some research that has been done concerning the viability/efficacy of Mycorrhizae inoculations. You know that pretty stuff with fancy labels that all the AG companies tell you you can do without to grow good cannabis. Yea thats right, the stuff you can pay 25 or more for a few ounces of powder you have no idea what the hell is in it., or if it even works. Yup the stuff you put around your rhizosphere with the promise of healthier, stronger root ballz and such.

What I am talking about is the fact that study upon study I have researched has shown that very few inoculates sold in nurseries and grow shops or online very rarely or never germinate and create the web of life your told they do. So to back up my claim to this nonsense here is just 1 of the studies I have found that don't paint a pretty picture of the magic powder we/you all put into your transplants. You be the judge I'm just trying to share the love and save you some dinero$$$ You want mycho goodness, then inoculate with Native borne soils around where you live. The chances going with this route are much better for success using your own native soils. Just what the hell do great white sharks have to do with growin weed anyway. LOL Here is the myko study below

Is it too late to add a poll? Lets say who would be willing to side by side hydro test this snake oil...ever herd of a mycoryzhae for hydro roots, endo or ecto? Sorry no cannabis studies that i know of that prove that hydro provides the substrate necessary for mycoryzhae to grow?

Blaze · Dec 14, 2016

I have generally thought the same but take a look at what the Jungle Boyz down in SoCal are doing. They have the most professional hydro set up I have ever seen and obviously what they are doing. They apparently use mycos and other bennies with great results.

rmoltis · Dec 15, 2016

epitome said:
Is it too late to add a poll? Lets say who would be willing to side by side hydro test this snake oil...ever herd of a mycoryzhae for hydro roots, endo or ecto? Sorry no cannabis studies that i know of that prove that hydro provides the substrate necessary for mycoryzhae to grow?

I use mychorizae in my aerated nutrients. And I can visibly see fungal activity (on the walls of the jug, and free floating around.)

It turns my topsoil into a cracked clay desert looking thing as it dries lol. But just looks like a fungus mat when wet.

Drying cycle

Watered/fed today

rmoltis · Dec 15, 2016

Wentworth said:
I've seen that before too. The top inch or so of the medium looks like a giant mushroomy sponge. It only happens when I use AN mykes/bennies. I bet it's an ecto or some other fungi that doesn't even associate w cannabis roots tho. Someone smart will know the answer lol @Ecompost

Mycoryzhae is not just something that binds to roots. It is a cocktail of various fungi species.

They all look, propagate and act differently. It is their interaction with the soil that you want. The benefits are from them working the living soil.

They live, they die, they leave behind proteins and acids for the plant to absorb.

Just having them in my soil makes me happy. Whatever the species it is lol.

Ecompost · Dec 15, 2016

rmoltis said:
I use mychorizae in my aerated nutrients. And I can visibly see fungal activity (on the walls of the jug, and free floating around.)

It turns my topsoil into a cracked clay desert looking thing as it dries lol. But just looks like a fungus mat when wet.

Drying cycle
View attachment 652759 View attachment 652760

Watered/fed today
View attachment 652761

you may more likely be seeing aggregates and or colonies of actinobacteria. many of which form filamentous structures which often times are mistaken for fungus. Actino are extremely abundant in nature, esp in compost piles and anywhere in fact where there might be bark, leaves, cellulose, lignin but it should be noted, any drop in DO2 levels may well switch up the benefits of this microbe family, they are in fact facultatively anaerobic. On the very real plus side, Actinobacteria, like Actionmycetes, Streptomyces, Frankia etc can both secrete powerful antibiotics, restricting many other common root molds etc, and or reduce root eating nematode populations and upper soil laying insect pests, whilst providing a shot of Nitrogen for many of our non legume plants.
many common meds such as Streptomycin, the first antibiotic to cure tuberculosis are found in this group :)

You will likely not be seeing Myco root fungus, not with the naked eye, sorry to disappoint you. Mycorrhizal are symbiont only, no plant, no root, no glomus, anything else you are seeing in the fungal world is not a mycorrhizae, unless the group is reconstructed as can be the case with any new science and data research. No plant, no Myco matey. Perhaps trichoderma or some other DSE fungus, Yeast etc, but not likely a mycorrhiza.

It has to be acknowledged, Mycos have stolen the thunder of things like Actinobacteria, which actually may be more critical to plants long term from a direct ag use case. Mycos are great, but they are plant specific and dependent, where bacteria, and other DSE types etc may well be symbiotic too, but can exist on their own, and ultimately, it may be this that allows us more use cases in the end.

Ecompost · Dec 15, 2016

jumpincactus said:
So, here we are, you say the headline and said just what the hell is ole Cactusman up to now. :)

Well let me say as a preface, if this isnt a good place for this to be please be Mod friendly and I will move it to a spot/category better suited for this threads content. I did give it some thought upfront, but as such, with a category that can cover many variables, I opted to go with the smokers lounge.

I would like to start with a little history on the term "Snakeoil" I will provide the link and catch up on the term at your own leisure.

By extension, a snake oil salesman is someone who knowingly sells fraudulent goods or who is themselves a fraud, quack, or charlatan.

Dang I dont see no one like that round here. LOL....... Trust me, we / you are surrounded by them like it or not!!!

Here's the link http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/how-snake-oil-got-a-bad-rap/

Well you came back, did I get your curiosity up? I mean to tell you I have a potion, elixir and all things Snakeoil that will cure whatever ails you or your plants. :p

To be clear, this thread if allowed will run to cover all of the headliner material. If you have in the past or present wondered, or bought something that didn't perform as specified then this is where you need to share it. And to be fair to the site owner we might need to be careful on how or who we call out on services and products. We can be creative without starting a 3rd WW

Honestly tho, even tho anecdotal evidence is sort of legit in my mind, I really want to keep this thread based on science and if you bring something to the table, please do your due diligence to at least do some homework and have a study paper or link to back up your claim.

Now I know trolls are gunna love this shit, but really if you are going to call BS on something someone else or myself post's then at least be troll worthy and have some data to back you up!!!

I am going to kick this off with some research that has been done concerning the viability/efficacy of Mycorrhizae inoculations. You know that pretty stuff with fancy labels that all the AG companies tell you you can do without to grow good cannabis. Yea thats right, the stuff you can pay 25 or more for a few ounces of powder you have no idea what the hell is in it., or if it even works. Yup the stuff you put around your rhizosphere with the promise of healthier, stronger root ballz and such.

What I am talking about is the fact that study upon study I have researched has shown that very few inoculates sold in nurseries and grow shops or online very rarely or never germinate and create the web of life your told they do. So to back up my claim to this nonsense here is just 1 of the studies I have found that don't paint a pretty picture of the magic powder we/you all put into your transplants. You be the judge I'm just trying to share the love and save you some dinero$$$ You want mycho goodness, then inoculate with Native borne soils around where you live. The chances going with this route are much better for success using your own native soils. Just what the hell do great white sharks have to do with growin weed anyway. LOL Here is the myko study below

without testing, we are going to inoculate with unknown soils? Which mycos are you associating with? Any or are you being specific? In order to produce meds for others, this randomness just wont work mate, sadly I wish it would, but we live in a world where you can sue me for the most daft of things. Accidentally introducing microbes of a nefarious nature, is too large a risk, and this is why Myco companies exist. It is very true to say most of it is crap, but this is method usually and a lack of understanding surrounding fungus more generally. EG if you see a company that has never had biology, suddenly start supplying mycos, i would be suspcious that this is 3rd party.
Sometime ago the Cz put loads of bum mycos out on the market. This brand was the same one promoted by the large national tree society and has been seen on TV etc on gardening shows, but its about the worst we have tested against.

Not all things are crap, just because things that sound the same arent actually equal, everyone should understand this right? Which mycos associate with Cannabis, which with Carrots, which with legumes, which with grasses, which with citrus, which with oak? can you access the sources so that you can grow anything you might like with the right partners, or are we just hoping?
http://www.amjbot.org/content/98/3/426.full

Ecompost · Dec 15, 2016

Evidence from recent molecular studies, however, indicates that cryptic species with higher levels of host specificity than previously realized will increase the number of known AM fungi (Selosse et al., 2006; Smith and Read, 2008). More than 6000 species, mostly of mushroom-forming basidiomycetes, form ectomycorrhizae with about 10% of all plant families. Greater host specificity usually occurs in the ectomycorrhizal fungus–plant associations than in AM associations (Smith and Read, 2008). Vast parts of the world remain to be sampled (Mueller et al., 2007), and it is expected that barriers to interbreeding have led to high genetic diversity among these fungi (Petersen and Hughes, 2007)

One drop · Dec 15, 2016

Ok I did a small home trail with GW 1st 2 pics is a cutting with no GW used at all , 2 nd pics cutting with GW used as well as root hormone , 3rd pics cutting with GW in coco pearl mix and like pic #2 incorporated into the cutting hormone , all cuttings were done at same time and as you can see there is some deference in the growth , I'll keep using it .

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2016

rmoltis said:
Mycoryzhae is not just something that binds to roots. It is a cocktail of various fungi species.

They all look, propagate and act differently. It is their interaction with the soil that you want. The benefits are from them working the living soil.

They live, they die, they leave behind proteins and acids for the plant to absorb.

Just having them in my soil makes me happy. Whatever the species it is lol.

you are missing my point. I dont need to be educated what purpose mychos serve as that is well documented. If you really read and understood the study it shows that a lot of times what you think your getting doesnt even germinate and serve its function. When over 50% of samples tested failed to germinate I would say that there is cause for concern and ways to save money rather than buy something based on it makes me feel good.

GT21 · Dec 16, 2016

This is gonna get good.... im pullin up a chair.... boats will be rocked lmfao

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2016

Ecompost said:
you may more likely be seeing aggregates and or colonies of actinobacteria. many of which form filamentous structures which often times are mistaken for fungus. Actino are extremely abundant in nature, esp in compost piles and anywhere in fact where there might be bark, leaves, cellulose, lignin but it should be noted, any drop in DO2 levels may well switch up the benefits of this microbe family, they are in fact facultatively anaerobic. On the very real plus side, Actinobacteria, like Actionmycetes, Streptomyces, Frankia etc can both secrete powerful antibiotics, restricting many other common root molds etc, and or reduce root eating nematode populations and upper soil laying insect pests, whilst providing a shot of Nitrogen for many of our non legume plants.
many common meds such as Streptomycin, the first antibiotic to cure tuberculosis are found in this group :)

You will likely not be seeing Myco root fungus, not with the naked eye, sorry to disappoint you. Mycorrhizal are symbiont only, no plant, no root, no glomus, anything else you are seeing in the fungal world is not a mycorrhizae, unless the group is reconstructed as can be the case with any new science and data research. No plant, no Myco matey. Perhaps trichoderma or some other DSE fungus, Yeast etc, but not likely a mycorrhiza.

It has to be acknowledged, Mycos have stolen the thunder of things like Actinobacteria, which actually may be more critical to plants long term from a direct ag use case. Mycos are great, but they are plant specific and dependent, where bacteria, and other DSE types etc may well be symbiotic too, but can exist on their own, and ultimately, it may be this that allows us more use cases in the end.

Gosh dang, thank you for clarifying the difference. See we already have one user who believes what he is seeing in mycorrhizal colonization when indeed it isnt.

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2016

GT21 said:
This is gonna get good.... im pullin up a chair.... boats will be rocked lmfao

Good to have you here bro. Yea I debated for months on to do or not to do. Well let the games begin. I see we already have some that won't believe they are being duped even when facts show otherwise. It is a condition called "Cognitive Dissonance"

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2016

Ecompost said:
without testing, we are going to inoculate with unknown soils? Which mycos are you associating with? Any or are you being specific? In order to produce meds for others, this randomness just wont work mate, sadly I wish it would, but we live in a world where you can sue me for the most daft of things. Accidentally introducing microbes of a nefarious nature, is too large a risk, and this is why Myco companies exist. It is very true to say most of it is crap, but this is method usually and a lack of understanding surrounding fungus more generally. EG if you see a company that has never had biology, suddenly start supplying mycos, i would be suspcious that this is 3rd party.
Sometime ago the Cz put loads of bum mycos out on the market. This brand was the same one promoted by the large national tree society and has been seen on TV etc on gardening shows, but its about the worst we have tested against.

Not all things are crap, just because things that sound the same arent actually equal, everyone should understand this right? Which mycos associate with Cannabis, which with Carrots, which with legumes, which with grasses, which with citrus, which with oak? can you access the sources so that you can grow anything you might like with the right partners, or are we just hoping?
http://www.amjbot.org/content/98/3/426.full

I should have been more clear bro. Sorry. When I reference Native Soil I meant from flower beds that have actively growing cannabis and a strong biology already. What I do is take small donations from around the rootball of actively growing cannabis and then use it to inoculate my new starts.

Even then I dont have the gear to test to see if this is successful or not. So I am just going with what I know. You are a welcome addition to this topic as I know you really know your stuff and will be able to set me or anyone else straight with sharing your knowledge. This is for learning and sharing the love.

jumpincactus · Dec 16, 2016

One drop said:
Ok I did a small home trail with GW 1st 2 pics is a cutting with no GW used at all , 2 nd pics cutting with GW used as well as root hormone , 3rd pics cutting with GW in coco pearl mix and like pic #2 incorporated into the cutting hormone , all cuttings were done at same time and as you can see there is some deference in the growth , I'll keep using it .

I want to be clear with everyone. I am NOT saying mychos dont exist. I know and understand how important they are to plants. What I am attempting to show and the study points out, is that with a random selection of a dozen commercial samples over 50% never even germinated.

My point is until more research is done even the companies making the mixes and package them up even they dont really know what the hell is in those containers or if it is the right type for cannabis.

In closing, I would say for the money we all spend we should be getting better than 50% efficacy from our products.

chickenman · Dec 16, 2016

A bit over my head all of this..
I keep it simple..
Native soil, sun, wind, bucket of well aged goat manure mixed in at planting in each hole, a bucket top dressed now and again and off they go........
Prune em up right at flower onset all inners huge difference come time to trim...

GT21 · Dec 16, 2016

jumpincactus said:
Good to have you here bro. Yea I debated for months on to do or not to do. Well let the games begin. I see we already have some that won't believe they are being duped even when facts show otherwise. It is a condition called "Cognitive Dissonance"

Hahaha true... its a live and let live kinda thing... you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.

epitome · Dec 16, 2016

jumpincactus said:
Good to have you here bro. Yea I debated for months on to do or not to do. Well let the games begin. I see we already have some that won't believe they are being duped even when facts show otherwise. It is a condition called "Cognitive Dissonance"

Great White "bennies" is a perfect example for it has both beneficial and detrimental bacteria and fungus in the same fucking bottle, they admit they don't know which hostplant specific bacteria and fungus are beneficial for cannabis so they put whatever in there knowing it's crapshoot and if your lucky their will be a dominant fungus or bacteria taking over your rootbal....great white is blatant snake oil, at least AN lies and says they develop there cannabis loving species in a vat, but what's to say our myco buddies aren't pickier or maybe even less picky....start making better buddies with the microscope owning gardeners who take immaculate notes and have superior organizational and labeling skills...
Cannasseur Quality has been hijacked by wackass commercial business men whom don't even smoke their own companies shitweed

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Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

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