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Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

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Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

jumpincactus 207 Replies 25,445 Views
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Here is some more data from a reputable source on the myths and farce used to lighten your wallet.

ODA finds big problems with little organisms

Although a product may promise special ingredients, would you be willing to pay $150 if you knew all it contained was colored water? To help keep this from happening, the Oregon Department of Agriculture’s Fertilizer Program samples and analyzes products as part of its consumer protection role. Most recently, the program has looked at products that contain microorganisms– or at least claim to have them. The results of the analyses are less than encouraging.

“Some products have met the claim and have passed, but the percentage is very low,” says fertilizer enforcement specialist Toby Primbs.

A’s Fertilizer Program is the only one in the nation checking on ingredient claims made for microbiological products. The program began testing products claiming to contain beneficial bacteria and one type of beneficial fungi (Trichoderma) in 2013. Of the 51 products tested for bacteria, only nine met their guarantees. Of the 14 products tested for Trichoderma, none met their guarantees. Last year, the program began testing products with mycorrhizal fungi, which form partnerships with plant roots for mutual benefit. Of the 17 products tested, only three met the guarantees made on the product label.

“Many of these products are being sold at a premium price, yet nobody was looking to see if these microbes were actually in the product,” says ODA fertilizer specialist Matt Haynes. “We had anecdotal information that some products had nothing added despite what was said on the label. Once we started looking, more often than not, the companies making these products were not able to back their claims.”

As an example, a one-liter retail container of a fertilizer product that claimed to have both fungi and bacteria sold for $87.50, yet testing did not indicate the presence any of the microbes.

For the past three years, ODA has sampled end use products claiming to have these living organisms– whether they were found in bags of potting soil purchased at a garden center, taken off the shelf of a hydroponics store, or pulled from a 275 gallon container at a commercial fertilizer dealer.

“For us, it’s basic consumer protection, and the consumer isn’t just a homeowner or a farmer– it’s also the Oregon manufacturer who is buying these microbial ingredients to add to their product,” says Don Wolf, another ODA fertilizer specialist.

Once samples are collected, ODA’s Plant Health Laboratory does standard microbiology work to determine if the organisms exist at viable concentration as claimed on the label, or even if they exist in the product at all. In some cases, the organisms might have been there at one time but die off before the expiration date listed on the product label.

ODA’s Fertilizer Program has not been able to determine if intentional fraud has taken place or if the microbial products have simply been mishandled.

“There are many steps along the way before it gets to the end user,” says Primbs. “There could be problems with the original batch, with the mixing of the product, maybe it wasn’t stored correctly. These are living organisms, so a lot of them won’t do well under high heat or without food for long periods of time.”

Microorganisms are very important to agriculture. A spoonful of fertile soil typically has at least 50 billion microbes of 10,000 different species. Many of these bacteria and fungi are critical to vibrant plant growth, some help process nutrients to feed plants, while others may form partnerships with plant roots, providing raw materials and water to the plant, in return for carbohydrates.

Microbial inoculants aren’t new to agriculture. Since the nineteenth century, researchers have isolated microbes from the soil and plants with the goal of increasing crop production. Legume inoculants, to increase the growth of nitrogen-fixing bacteria so plants can grow their own nitrogen fertilizer, have been commercially available to farmers since 1897. Today, researchers have identified species containing a variety of characteristics with the potential to be even more useful to agriculture. Over the past several years, there has been great interest in, and a rapidly growing market for, microbiological ingredients. At least one published report estimates this rapidly developing market will be worth more than $4.45 billion worldwide by 2019.

il now, the results of the product sampling and analysis have been shared with the companies that produced them, as part of an educational approach undertaken by ODA.

“We have had a wide range of reactions by those who find out their product doesn’t meet the specifications that are claimed,” says Wolf. “Some are very concerned, very responsible, and want to do things right. Others seem to have only an interest in profitability and the bottom line.”

The educational approach is now transitioning to a regulatory one. Moving forward, any fertilizer product containing microorganisms found deficient by ODA will face enforcement action, ranging from a notice of violation to a potential civil penalty. The basis for ODA’s action is that the product would be deemed mislabeled if it can’t meet its claim.

“We hope these companies will look at their process and their final end use product so that they can ensure the customer is getting what is claimed on the label, all the way until the expiration date,” says Primbs.

ODA’s three-person Fertilizer Program continues to look at products for chemical and mineral content, also verifying label claims. With 10,000 fertilizer products registered by ODA for use in Oregon, and about 700 specifically containing microbial material, there is more than enough to keep the program busy. A dozen years ago, ODA registered only about 4,000 products and the program consisted of two people to cover the entire state. While the number of products grows in proportion to increased demand, the consumer protection function of the Fertilizer Program will only become more important.

ODA protects consumers through programs for food safety, animal health, pesticide use, invasive species, and weights and measures standards, among others. Add the fertilizer program to the list.

For more information, contact Toby Primbs, Don Wolf, or Matt Haynes at (503) 986-4635.
 
Great White "bennies" is a perfect example for it has both beneficial and detrimental bacteria and fungus in the same fucking bottle, they admit they don't know which hostplant specific bacteria and fungus are beneficial for cannabis so they put whatever in there knowing it's crapshoot and if your lucky their will be a dominant fungus or bacteria taking over your rootbal....great white is blatant snake oil, at least AN lies and says they develop there cannabis loving species in a vat, but what's to say our myco buddies aren't pickier or maybe even less picky....start making better buddies with the microscope owning gardeners who take immaculate notes and have superior organizational and labeling skills...
Cannasseur Quality has been hijacked by wackass commercial business men whom don't even smoke their own companies shitweed

LOL nice one. I knew I would find a like believer here. Good to see you man. Mitakuye Oyasin
 
So here is more information that is relevant to those of you that are trying to germinate and have a thriving mycorrhizal network. As you will see there is no such thing as a pretty package and you can just throw some magic dust on shit and reap massive results. A basic understanding of growing and chemistry goes a long way to keep you from being fleeced!!! One way to start is to know whats in your soil from a mineral/chemical standpoint before you add this or that hoping for miracles. Always do a soil test before adding anything but water homies. And yes you can have your soil tested even if its from a bag of soil from Home Depot.

Phosphate and Mycorrhizae: A Love/Hate Relationship
One of the many benefits of mycorrhizal colonization is that plant root uptake of phosphate—especially “unavailable” forms—is greatly increased. Yet numerous studies have demonstrated that phosphate fertilizer is deadly to mycorrhizal associations. How can these two realities coexist? When a plant senses that its tissues or the soil contains enough phosphate, it no longer needs its mycorrhizal partner and so becomes less receptive to infection by mycorrhizal spores. Phosphate amendment—especially soluble forms—will inhibit mycorrhizal development on many economically important plants. In non-agricultural systems, such as grasslands, wetlands, and forests, phosphate addition has a similar inhibitory effect on mycorrhizal infection. This negative interaction has been experimentally demonstrated and repeated in laboratories, greenhouses, nurseries, fields, forests, and managed landscapes. Often this inhibition is an issue of moderation. High levels of soluble phosphate nearly always squelch mycorrhizal activity, while lower levels are sometimes syngergistic with mycorrhizae, especially if phosphate is unavailable due to soil alkalinity. One form of this mineral—rock phosphate—can be particularly difficult for plant roots to mobilize. Mycorrhizae, however, can easily solubilize this mineral and transport it to the plant roots. Since plant roots perceive a lack of available phosphate, they are receptive to mycorrhizal infection and subsequent uptake of this phosphate source. But, as with any other fertilizer, rock phosphate should never be added to a landscape unless soil tests indicate a nutrient deficiency.

https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf
 
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So here is more information that is relevant to those of you that are trying to germinate and have a thriving mycorrhizal network. As you will see there is no such thing as a pretty package and you can just throw some magic dust on shit and reap massive results. A basic understanding of growing and chemistry goes a long way to keep you from being fleeced!!! One way to start is to know whats in your soil from a mineral/chemical standpoint before you add this or that hoping for miracles. Always do a soil test before adding anything but water homies. And yes you can have your soil test even if its from a bag of soil from Home Depot.

Phosphate and Mycorrhizae: A Love/Hate Relationship
One of the many benefits of mycorrhizal colonization is that plant root uptake of phosphate—especially “unavailable” forms—is greatly increased. Yet numerous studies have demonstrated that phosphate fertilizer is deadly to mycorrhizal associations. How can these two realities coexist? When a plant senses that its tissues or the soil contains enough phosphate, it no longer needs its mycorrhizal partner and so becomes less receptive to infection by mycorrhizal spores. Phosphate amendment—especially soluble forms—will inhibit mycorrhizal development on many economically important plants. In non-agricultural systems, such as grasslands, wetlands, and forests, phosphate addition has a similar inhibitory effect on mycorrhizal infection. This negative interaction has been experimentally demonstrated and repeated in laboratories, greenhouses, nurseries, fields, forests, and managed landscapes. Often this inhibition is an issue of moderation. High levels of soluble phosphate nearly always squelch mycorrhizal activity, while lower levels are sometimes syngergistic with mycorrhizae, especially if phosphate is unavailable due to soil alkalinity. One form of this mineral—rock phosphate—can be particularly difficult for plant roots to mobilize. Mycorrhizae, however, can easily solubilize this mineral and transport it to the plant roots. Since plant roots perceive a lack of available phosphate, they are receptive to mycorrhizal infection and subsequent uptake of this phosphate source. But, as with any other fertilizer, rock phosphate should never be added to a landscape unless soil tests indicate a nutrient deficiency.

https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf
nice kicking down knowledge....it is peculiar to me when someone/salesmen implies that questions always mean doubt...I usually think twice when I'm told oh don't worry about understanding it, just cash the checks once you harvest the monster max yields...
 
No matter what, a certain amount of faith is necessary, just take notice of recent finding in that quarum sensing @jumpincactus @Ecompost is it possible that the host plants pick and choose their myco-allies according to the existing environment/threats/co-benefactors below and above ground? This is what I'm working on as far as the epigenetic symbiosis between my living recycled soil and my bx's and clones coupled with companion gardening of specific phenotypes known to repel spider mites and prevent aphids and powdery mildew and blossomrot and so on....I need to quarum sense some caterpillar predators and grasshopper predators next....talk about anecdotal novelty...so the common denominator is my snake oil piss that I inoculate my wormfarms with....sorry OP I haven't found any studies on this, I'm not that scientific YET. Loving the thread, has anyone mentioned all the substrate filler talc shit in myco products, is that kitty litter talc shit really necessary...if i accidentally posted this in the wrong thread feel free to move it jajajajaja
 
Really great to have someone trying to make sense of all these statistics. I read this over and come to the conclusion that it`s still way over my head. Either that or this 69 year old head is too hard for the new info to enter. Keep up the good work. Like always, I try something and if I like the results, I use it, if not it gets shit canned. It`s bros like you who help us hard headed old farts to understand somethings. Thank You.
PS, I still remain a hard headed old fart.
 
I will post em as I see em and I welcome anyone with a legit concern and willingness to participate to do so and as mentioned in the season opener, please back your claims up as best you can. Terpinator anyone...... LOL

I swear by jesus my plants had no terps at all. Monday night I used terpinator and by Tuesday mornin my carbon filter couldn't keep up. It was clogged with trichomes... He he

I am callin on some of my old time amigos here at the farm to come inside and have a looksee, Hope to see you all soon,

@Ecompost @mancdank @rmoltis @stonestacker @thunderfudge @epitome @diamond2.0 @Bulldog420 @blazer @Seamaiden @LocalGrowGuy and to any one else that wants to join in. But please be verwwwy verwwwy careful, Dont rock the damn boat.
Come on bro I'm from England we don't rock boats we sink the cunts :)
 
I will post em as I see em and I welcome anyone with a legit concern and willingness to participate to do so and as mentioned in the season opener, please back your claims up as best you can. Terpinator anyone...... LOL

I swear by jesus my plants had no terps at all. Monday night I used terpinator and by Tuesday mornin my carbon filter couldn't keep up. It was clogged with trichomes... He he

I am callin on some of my old time amigos here at the farm to come inside and have a looksee, Hope to see you all soon,

@Ecompost @mancdank @rmoltis @stonestacker @thunderfudge @epitome @diamond2.0 @Bulldog420 @blazer @Seamaiden @LocalGrowGuy and to any one else that wants to join in. But please be verwwwy verwwwy careful, Dont rock the damn boat.
Yea I belive terpinator has got something in there that works but I just belive it's well over priced for what's actually in there which I belive is about 90% water some vit c and some other cheap ass shit :) are we rocking yet :)
 
Yea I belive terpinator has got something in there that works but I just belive it's well over priced for what's actually in there which I belive is about 90% water some vit c and some other cheap ass shit :) are we rocking yet :)
I think pgr's are responsible for bloom boosters plus heavy metals and silica additives coupled with synthetic chelates forces elements into our medicinal flowers and those elements are not always used by the plant, just moved through plant and accumulated in the vegetation...snake oils cannot substitute for environmental conditions, genetics and gardening skills ;^}
 
Yea I belive terpinator has got something in there that works but I just belive it's well over priced for what's actually in there which I belive is about 90% water some vit c and some other cheap ass shit :) are we rocking yet :)
And nothing is natural about adding harpin proteins and arabidopsis pht4 to an organic grown plant hahaha
 
Start off by saying, excellent subject, and rookie grower here to learn... I'm poor and obviously naive. I don't have much of a budget to try everything, and your sharing of knowledge is priceless to me.

I got better results from molasses & milk, and a little bit of 0-10-10 hydroponic nutes (a gallon gifted to me), than other local gardeners using bloom boosters of all sorts, (mostly similar proportions). I was just lucky, but I'm wondering if there's something to the molasses and milk thing. I got it off of YouTube. Terpinator is potassium sulfate, right?
 
Start off by saying, excellent subject, and rookie grower here to learn... I'm poor and obviously naive. I don't have much of a budget to try everything, and your sharing of knowledge is priceless to me.

I got better results from molasses & milk, and a little bit of 0-10-10 hydroponic nutes (a gallon gifted to me), than other local gardeners using bloom boosters of all sorts, (mostly similar proportions). I was just lucky, but I'm wondering if there's something to the molasses and milk thing. I got it off of YouTube. Terpinator is potassium sulfate, right?
That might be it lol potassium and vit c :)
 
No matter what, a certain amount of faith is necessary, just take notice of recent finding in that quarum sensing @jumpincactus @Ecompost is it possible that the host plants pick and choose their myco-allies according to the existing environment/threats/co-benefactors below and above ground? This is what I'm working on as far as the epigenetic symbiosis between my living recycled soil and my bx's and clones coupled with companion gardening of specific phenotypes known to repel spider mites and prevent aphids and powdery mildew and blossomrot and so on....I need to quarum sense some caterpillar predators and grasshopper predators next....talk about anecdotal novelty...so the common denominator is my snake oil piss that I inoculate my wormfarms with....sorry OP I haven't found any studies on this, I'm not that scientific YET. Loving the thread, has anyone mentioned all the substrate filler talc shit in myco products, is that kitty litter talc shit really necessary...if i accidentally posted this in the wrong thread feel free to move it jajajajaja
That is a very good opening question bro. :D

Concerning "Quorum Sensing", yes the research so far has shown that the plant is able to call in the troops so to speak thru the release of specific exudates in the rhizosphere. The chemical markers signal the appropriate bacteria to come to their aid. It is my understanding that this is a form of communication that is under intense study and not fully understood due to the vast complexity of the chemical compounds in the exudates in the rhizosphere.

Yes I am aware of the various fillers that companies use to bulk up their powdered mixes. Bottom line is with mycho additives, there is very little evidence that they even contain viable spores and half the time they don't even germinate to begin building the network we are hoping to build. Take a minute an read that report from the State of Oregon if you haven't already and they have found the efficacy of these types of products fall way short of what the mfgr's claim. What I don't care for with this report, is due to liability from potential law suits they don't give a list of the mfgrs whose products failed, which limits the transparency of the studies
 
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