EZ Cloner Collars - is there a re-usable option?

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PermaClone

PermaClone

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It's hard to recommend a method for making hypochlorous acid from unknown water. I wouldn't recommend tap.

I'll put it in jargon, and if you're a chemist, you can map it out.

Buffer RO water to a pH such that upon the addition of alkaline hypochlorite salts the pH lands around 6.0. Further, I'd recommend buffereing you cloner rez to pH 6.0.

Even as a chemist I'm like, fuck that! ...just use hypochlorite at their effective strengths.
0.5 - 2 ppm when exposed to roots

OR

4 ppm for water treatment (particularly if you're on a well)

Man, I hate feeling like an antagonistic, but my manual stays the same.

I got a good, simple recipe with hypochlorite salts and it works well and it's standard dosages. Tested over-and-over again by me and TONS of customers.

-Michael@PermaClone
 
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FooDoo

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@PermaClone our of curiosity, if I take pool shock and toss it into water, how can I then test how successful it was into binding into hypochlorous acid
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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@PermaClone our of curiosity, if I take pool shock and toss it into water, how can I then test how successful it was into binding into hypochlorous acid

Honestly, I think pool shock is the best way to roll, but I wanted to recommend a method that was easy and bleach is already in solution with well known free chlorine strength...so easy to recommend. For making your own calcium shock here's the math (give me a second, I actually avhe to write this out to make sure I don't deliver false info).... BRB w/ a response.
 
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FooDoo

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Honestly, I think pool shock is the best way to roll, but I wanted to recommend a method that was easy and bleach is already in solution with well known free chlorine strength...so easy to recommend. For making your own calcium shock here's the math (give me a second, I actually avhe to write this out to make sure I don't deliver false info).... BRB w/ a response.

No rush. I have 4 packets of pool shock left over from a year ago when we made a thread showing UC roots was a rip off. It's on these forums and on icmag . Ill search it really quickly
 
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FooDoo

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icmag is a thread called "cloning fail? Tried everything?"

Roll it up http://www.invalid.com/t/make-2200-worth-of-clear-rez-for-4.423650/

And there's one on here for it as well in undercurrent section
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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Ok, I played with some numbers. Here's the answer first, then I'll explain why next:

8.25 grams/gal (70% Pool shock) => 1,520 ppm free chlorine. Use opaque container, I have to double check, but I pretty sure light degrades hypochlorite.

Hit me up if you have another strength pool shock...I know there's 30%, 50% or another dosage. Still, remember, at 2 - 4 drops per gallon bleach, you're only exposing the roots to 1 - 2 ppm sodium. Still, it's nice that pool shock is Calcium, a plant essential.

Here why this is my favorite dose. After playing with the numbers the treatment are easy numbers and volumes to work w/:

Water Treatment:
10 mL/gal of this above solution would yield 4 ppm free chlorine. This is easy to measure and great for guys on well or in cities that use chloramine which is ~10x less oxidizing than hypochlorite salts (yikes, another topic)

For cutting before root formation:
5 - 10 mL/gal would yield the 2 - 4 ppm

One you got roots:
2 - 5 mL/gal would yield 0.5 - 2 ppm free chlorine and wont stress your roots; stay conservative unless you're seeing browning or problems.

I hope I wasn't too intense tonight (a frequent complaint about my personality) ...honestly, I have a lot of love for this community and @FooDoo Thanks for calling me out...my methods are definitely unorthodox and counter to the latest theme. I've just been 'cracking out" on cloning since I creating PermaClone and have really dug deep into all the variables that make cloners an ART. I appreciate you calling me out, better than thinking it and not saying it. ANd I'm the first to recommend "question everything" . I'm also learned over time to be ready to be wrong.

BTW: excited to be on THC farmer and NOT paranoid. I've been staying in Colorado a while now and feel much safer as a political refugee.

-Michael @ PermaClone.com
 
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FooDoo

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The pool shock recommended and that I currently have in hand is the "hth shock 'n swim" #3 shock. Calcium hypochlorite 47.6% with minimum available chlorine of 45% in a net weight of 454 grams
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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The pool shock recommended and that I currently have in hand is the "hth shock 'n swim" #3 shock. Calcium hypochlorite 47.6% with minimum available chlorine of 45% in a net weight of 454 grams


So for yours I would do 12.8 gram/gallon to yield 1,520 ppm free chlorine. For good measure, mix at the 10 mL/gal and see if it lands at 4 ppm w/ Chlorine test strips.

You'll notice the math is proportional, so I took:

70%/45% x 8.25 g for 70% ==> 12.83 g/gal of 45%.
 
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FooDoo

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So for yours I would do 12.8 gram/gallon to yield 1,520 ppm free chlorine. For good measure, mix at the 10 mL/gal and see if it lands at 4 ppm w/ Chlorine test strips.

You'll notice the math is proportional, so I took:

70%/45% x 8.25 g for 70% ==> 12.83 g/gal of 45%.

Indeed your math is spot on. I used canna stats calculator for cl value at their minimum guarantee of 45% (which means it could be even higher by a smudge) and plugged it in and got back a value of 1521.79xxx ppm chlorine so right on par with your numbers.

Now here's the point being made, your instructions say UC roots will sterilize at .05-0.5 free chlorine but pool shock has to be at .05-5 ppm to sterilize However we just established pool shock in water IS UC roots plus some extra calcium which makes it even better.

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/calcium_hypochlorite#section=Top

"Calcium hypochlorite is a white solid that readily decomposes in water releasing oxygen and chlorine."

Easily dilutes in water and quickly releases o2 and cl which we knows will bond with h in water to form UC roots aka hypoclorous acid.

"Hydrogen Bond Acceptor Count: 2"

"It is decomposed by water with evolution of chlorine gas and heat"

This translates to "it is broken down by water with the the gradual development of chlorine gas and heat" *for evolution look up second meaning in dictionary which is "
the gradual development of something"


Meaning once pool shock is in water chlorine gas is developed and just like Michael said when chlorine gas travels thru water you get hypchlorous acid.

Here's his quote

"You can bubble chlorine gas through water and get hypochlorous acid. But we're not talking about using chlorine gas, we're talking about home-made hypochlorous acid from hypochloritesalts and it's tedious, different from water-to-water supply and unnecessary."

Clearly this reaction is natural and happens on its own and there for not tediuous
 
DrMcSkunkins

DrMcSkunkins

Dabbling in Oil
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Couldnt you just buy a pool noodle from the dollar store and cut it in slices with a hot knife or electric carving knife?
pool_noodles_large_diameter_1821_852_640.jpg
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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Couldnt you just buy a pool noodle from the dollar store and cut it in slices with a hot knife or electric carving knife?
pool_noodles_large_diameter_1821_852_640.jpg

Good idea! Poly-ethylene foam will be a product you could use and thraw away for cheap. Not heat sterilizable AND chemical sterilization would be hit-or-miss.

But, seriously, one of those noodles will fill your cloner round-after-round. I'd recommend tossing them after each run...which isn't my personal goal with PermaClone. I want a product that is as infinitely re-usable as possible. I've been able to offer 5 years guaranteed w/ Perma...but am approaching longer with my prototype set.

I took a lot of LSD in my time..sometimes for funzies, other times for spiritual growth...or just for to feel synchrony w/ molecules--I'm weird. One of the biggest messages (I admittedly may be delusional) was all about ecology, land-fills, sustainability.

That's my goal with PermaClone. BUT, I'm not dogmatic, I agree, you can make a lot of collars from those for cheap...cycle-after-cycle just cut off another chunk." And, our landfill, in time will llikely break-down into usable/arable land (probably not for food) but other product like hemp fibers, textiles, building material...things where heavy metals and plasticize rs aren't an issue...so maybe land-fills aren't a problem.

For now, I feel re-usability is key.

Michael @PermaClone
 
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PermaClone

PermaClone

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8
Indeed your math is spot on. I used canna stats calculator for cl value at their minimum guarantee of 45% (which means it could be even higher by a smudge) and plugged it in and got back a value of 1521.79xxx ppm chlorine so right on par with your numbers.

Now here's the point being made, your instructions say UC roots will sterilize at .05-0.5 free chlorine but pool shock has to be at .05-5 ppm to sterilize However we just established pool shock in water IS UC roots plus some extra calcium which makes it even better.

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/calcium_hypochlorite#section=Top

"Calcium hypochlorite is a white solid that readily decomposes in water releasing oxygen and chlorine."

Easily dilutes in water and quickly releases o2 and cl which we knows will bond with h in water to form UC roots aka hypoclorous acid.

"Hydrogen Bond Acceptor Count: 2"

"It is decomposed by water with evolution of chlorine gas and heat"

This translates to "it is broken down by water with the the gradual development of chlorine gas and heat" *for evolution look up second meaning in dictionary which is "
the gradual development of something"


Meaning once pool shock is in water chlorine gas is developed and just like Michael said when chlorine gas travels thru water you get hypchlorous acid.

Here's his quote

"You can bubble chlorine gas through water and get hypochlorous acid. But we're not talking about using chlorine gas, we're talking about home-made hypochlorous acid from hypochloritesalts and it's tedious, different from water-to-water supply and unnecessary."

Clearly this reaction is natural and happens on its own and there for not tediuous

If you can achieve pH 6.0 in your rez, you will have hypochlorous acid and all it's enhanced reactivity.

I believe you'll end up bubble unknown amounts of chlorine gas out of solution and leave unknown amounts of hypochlorous acid in solution. BUT, maybe we can solve this with an orp meter. We would need to invest in a technique to ensure adequate dosages.

My manual (I admit) is about what I know. You could be onto something but my current state of knowledge tells me you'll end up w/ some hypothclour acid but a LOT of chlorine gas leaving solution.

The chlorine gas bubbling technique probably involves a decent dose of bubbline (and hopefully recovering of the chlorine gas OR proper facility evacuation).

BUT! We I'm down to experiment. Let's pH adjust and nail 0.5 ppm and see if we get consistant roots.

Alteratively, lets search the literature and see if we can find a good protocol.

I think you can solve this and nail the dosages that work. BUT, I think I have a good recipe and you should test it out while you work on refining producing your own hypochlorous acids solution from hypochlorite salts.
 
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FooDoo

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Couldnt you just buy a pool noodle from the dollar store and cut it in slices with a hot knife or electric carving knife?
pool_noodles_large_diameter_1821_852_640.jpg

The reason for trying the permaclone collars is I was sick of throwing the ez clone collars away after only a single use .

Main reasons for this was

1. Opening the ez collars up I would sometimes rip them

- the permaclone collars clearly solve this issue. The gap is present for the clone and only closes when placed into the cloner.

2. Roots would grow into the ez collars and rip when removing. These roots would get stuck in the collars

-permaclone literature states there's a "skin" on the collars that will prevent this. I hope the results do indeed show this.

3. I was worried about them not being disinfected completely.

-permaclone went above and beyond on how to sterilize these things. That's a really cool feature that makes them separate from all others.

If these last 5 years and work as advertised than they paid for themselves. what chlorine the company recommends to be used to clean your cloner really doesn't matter at that point.

I just hope micheal can get a lab technician to show him the chemical reaction of pool shock in water so he can either verify that his literature is correct or find out pool
Shock is indeed hypoclorous acid and he can correct his literature
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

36
8
The reason for trying the permaclone collars is I was sick of throwing the ez clone collars away after only a single use .

Main reasons for this was

1. Opening the ez collars up I would sometimes rip them

- the permaclone collars clearly solve this issue. The gap is present for the clone and only closes when placed into the cloner.

2. Roots would grow into the ez collars and rip when removing. These roots would get stuck in the collars

-permaclone literature states there's a "skin" on the collars that will prevent this. I hope the results do indeed show this.

3. I was worried about them not being disinfected completely.

-permaclone went above and beyond on how to sterilize these things. That's a really cool feature that makes them separate from all others.

If these last 5 years and work as advertised than they paid for themselves. what chlorine the company recommends to be used to clean your cloner really doesn't matter at that point.

I just hope micheal can get a lab technician to show him the chemical reaction of pool shock in water so he can either verify that his literature is correct or find out pool
Shock is indeed hypoclorous acid and he can correct his literature

Adding hypochlorite salts doesnt yield
Hypochlorous acid. (Period).

I accepted your theory about the Chlorine gas Leaving solution possibly forming hypochlorous to be gracious bc i'm sure there's a ppb (parts per billion) of HCLo left behind...and your fighting the subject like your ego is on the line. Ergo, i'll be gracious.

But, ultimately, it doesn't work, go do the experiment, report back. But giving me a bunch if luke-warm kuddos about PermaClone to then insult me is not cool.
 
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FooDoo

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Adding hypochlorite salts doesnt yield
Hypochlorous acid. (Period).

I accepted your theory about the Chlorine gas Leaving solution possibly forming hypochlorous to be gracious bc i'm sure there's a ppb (parts per billion) of HCLo left behind...and your fighting the subject like your ego is on the line. Ergo, i'll be gracious.

But, ultimately, it doesn't work, go do the experiment, report back. But giving me a bunch if luke-warm kuddos about PermaClone to then insult me is not cool.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hypochlorite

"Other names
Hypochlorous acid, calcium salt
Bleaching powder, Calcium oxychloride"

@squiggly can you shine any light on this matter ?
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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Hydrogen Ions will outcompete Na or Ca to produce HClO at the right pH.

That pH around 6.0 w/o ammonia or other reactive soecies around.

Therefore, you must buffer solutionto to pH 6.0 w strong enough buffer to out compete the alkalizing affects of NaClO (bleach) or Ca(Clo)2 (pool shock).

That why municipalities choose 4 ppm ClO

AND pools are kept at 3 ppm Clo.

Now, Salt water pools CAN do this w hypochlorous acid generstors in-line and no ammonia or other molecules to react. New subject. Bro! Trust me, i know all about it. And i put in the tim
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hypochlorite

"Other names
Hypochlorous acid, calcium salt
Bleaching powder, Calcium oxychloride"

@squiggly can you shine any light on this matter ?

From your wiki article:
"A calcium hypochlorite solution is basic. This basicity is due to the hydrolysis performed by the hypochlorite ion, as hypochlorous acid is weak, but calcium hydroxide is a strong base. "

Same wiki source about hydrochlorius acid:
"The composition of the resulting solution depends on the pH at the anode. In acid conditions the solution produced will have a high hypochlorous acid concentration, but will also contain dissolved gaseous chlorine, which can be corrosive, at a neutral pH the solution will be around 75% hypochlorous acid and 25% hypochlorite. Some of the chlorine gas produced will dissolve forming hypochlorite ions."

It all about pH look here they suggest at pH 7 you'll be 75% hypochlorous. That's pretty good. Targets is moving (we need to verify source bc although wiki is cool, it's just a good starting point).

Gotta adjust pH do achieve hypochlorous. It must be done w righr source of Hydrogen ion (pH down) bc some woll react and form corinated molecules like chloramine.

I'm getting sleepy. I love a good debate. Your def challenging me, but pH adjust is tedious, jist nail 2-5 ppm free chlorine for water treatment and 0.5 - 2 for plant tissue.

No tedious pH adjustment.
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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Ok, possibly being rude is worrying me. Before I can sleep gotta say, just try the conventional 0.5 - 5 ppm chlorine strength and stop trying to be hypochlorous acid.

Treat your water a 3 - 5 ppm. Add you cuttings, then after all your cuttings are in place, do a 0.5 - 2 ppm boost before adding your favorite cloning mix. It works like a charm w/ everything else sterilized.

Lots of love! ..crashing HARD all medicated and snuggly.

-Michael
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

36
8
PS: definitely interested in rapping w/ @squiggly

And I promise, if I"m wrong, I'm going to totally write a whole page on my website about how I was wrong and owe @FooDoo an apology.

M @ PC
 
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