Sick plants, needs professional help please. Using Heavy16 line

[Roxyheart420]

I am hoping an advanced grower can help me with my problem. I'm getting really bad feed back from other people. Here is the line up:
Strain: Purple Punch
Stage: first week of flower/ this is not a new problem. Problem all through veg
Medium: Happy Frog
Nutrients: Heavy16 line /I use the whole line and follow the feeding schedule online
I do not over water, I use a meter and wait until they are ready
I flush about every 2 weeks
I use Sea Green 1ml per gal. with every feeding
I use Heavy16 Foliar twice a week with 1ml of roots and 1ml fire added
I don't have to adjust my ph because the Heavy16 line does it for you. So going in is 6.5ph Coming out is 5.5ph
Because I'm in soil it's hard to determine the PPM coming out. But it's always around 2500ppm

Now onto the problem. After reading numerous articles it looks like Nitrogen deficiency. Lower to mid leaves are turning yellow then brown and crisp, then falling off.
But how is this possible if I'm using the line exactly as directed?
A few people I have talked to say to Flush. That is always there go to answer on everything. Well, I've done that and it has not cleared up. I have tried lowering nutrients, nope, that didn't work. Someone suggested watering more often, nope, that didn't work.
Nitrogen deficiency looks like the logical answer from all the pictures and articles. Lower to mid leaves turning yellow, then crispy, then falling off. Tops are nice and green (lime green) not dark. They say it steals nitrogen from the bottom for the top, but eventually working its way to the top.

So if this seems to be the problem, how do I fix it? To top it all off one article said if you are using a nutrient line and feeding to schedule it's probably NOT a Nitrogen deficiency. So now I am at a loss.
Thank you so much for any feed back.
PS. I hate to say this but my gut tells me I got some bad clones from the start. The clones looked weak. Genetics could be bad. I could be wrong.

Attaching photos.

 

[az2000]

Because I'm in soil it's hard to determine the PPM coming out. But it's always around 2500ppm

For me (my soil and nutes), that would be where lockout occurs. I try to keep my runoff ppms around 1800 in mid to late flower. If it goes above 2000, I reduce strength, increase runoff volume (mini-flush). Above 2200 I'm in the danger zone.

Your plants don't look like salt buildup/lockout to me. They look good. Have you calibrated your TDS meter? You can mix 1g ordinary salt (from the kitchen) in 1 liter distilled water. That's 1000ppm. Not as precise as calibration solutions. But, for growing/hobby stuff, it's good enough.

Now onto the problem. After reading numerous articles it looks like Nitrogen deficiency. Lower to mid leaves are turning yellow then brown and crisp, then falling off.

It's normal for plants to discard lower leaves in flower, when all the growth is concentrated in bud development. It may suggest the plants aren't getting enough light, the lower leaves might not be receiving enough (not enough penetration or coverage). People often pluck all the lower growth off (lolipop). I don't. But, that is a common practice and suggests it's not a huge problem to lose lower leaves.

What kind of light are you using? Maybe the plants would benefit from sidelighting, or something different. Maybe it's not intense enough, or a great spectrum.

(BTW: I don't consider myself an advanced grower. I hope my thoughts don't add to your frustration with the suggestions you've received.).

 

[Beachwalker]

I gave you your answers back in your "Ice Ice Baby" thread but you had other ideas so on it goes I guess? I don't mean that in a bad way, I tried to help you then and I'm trying now, same issues, you can go back and reread your thread if you wish I believe I've pointed out your main issues

Feed and flush feed and flush lol you know what too much flushing does to a plant's roots? Your problem is your newts, and/or how you're using them.

2500 PPM runoff is ridiculous, cut what your feeding by half and start properly pHing everything you give the plant and your problem will stop, good luck

 

[Jack og]

The soil is depleted , over flushing, never flush soil during veg, only flush is you suspect heavy nitrogen at end of flower, indications would be green leaves that won’t yellow out at final flowering.
So roots are dying. Why? It’s constantly fighting for nutrients that have been depleted via excessive moisture/flush.
Fix:
Re pot the plants, go to a larger pot add new soil cut fix farms with perlite to help drain , it’s a very clumpy soil. And restart the nutes. Start at 1/4 dose and gradually increase to full day by 5th feed it’s should be at full dose. Let it dry in between feed. And I mean dry, why? You add nutes, soil stores it. While wet less is available, as the root zone dries out, the feeder roots will keep seeking more nutes, this allows the plant to uptake the nutes and use it up. Dry means the once u go to lift the pot it’s light, but plant isn’t wilting. Then water , let that dry to half of dry, then feed 1/2 dose and let it dry again, rinse and repeat this formula. Only flush if there is a need but don’t arbitrarily flush. It’s counter intuitive and bad for the plant.
TLDR: version
Soil is dead, over flushed, over watered, roots in trouble. Repot. Don’t flush. Dry in between feeds/water.

 

[Roxyheart420]

I gave you your answers back in your "Ice Ice Baby" thread but you had other ideas so on it goes I guess? I don't mean that in a bad way, I tried to help you then and I'm trying now, same issues, you can go back and reread your thread if you wish I believe I've pointed out your main issues

Feed and flush feed and flush lol you know what too much flushing does to a plant's roots? Your problem is your newts, and/or how you're using them.

2500 PPM runoff is ridiculous, cut what your feeding by half and start properly pHing everything you give the plant and your problem will stop, good luck

Thank you for your reply, and btw I did look at what you sent me. What I realized after a test is when you use Heavy16 you start with filtered water at 7.5 but after adding nutes it ph's by it's self. What I didn't before writting that tread was ph "after" adding nutes. Therefore it's not the PH. What I'm wondering is why a line like Heavy16 have a feeding schedule that would be way to high to feed your plants? Oh and by the way after I read your reply back then I did as you said completely backed off to where I was feeding 900ppm and my run off was still 2300ppm The problem is still there.

 

[az2000]

What I'm wondering is why a line like Heavy16 have a feeding schedule that would be way too high to feed your plants?

FWIW: Many products are like that. It's customary to advise people to feed half what the label/schedule says, unless someone's used the product and knows what works. It's more the norm than the exception, from what I've seen. I don't know why they do that. People say it's sell more product. But, it leads to bad experiences which you'd think would cause fewer sales, bad reputations, etc.

It appears to me that 250-400 ppm nutrient strength (not counting water ppms) is the typical range for soil. Hydro & soilless are typically twice as strong. (And then, if the soil already has nutrients you'd use less.).

 

[Roxyheart420]

The soil is depleted , over flushing, never flush soil during veg, only flush is you suspect heavy nitrogen at end of flower, indications would be green leaves that won’t yellow out at final flowering.
So roots are dying. Why? It’s constantly fighting for nutrients that have been depleted via excessive moisture/flush.
Fix:
Re pot the plants, go to a larger pot add new soil cut fix farms with perlite to help drain , it’s a very clumpy soil. And restart the nutes. Start at 1/4 dose and gradually increase to full day by 5th feed it’s should be at full dose. Let it dry in between feed. And I mean dry, why? You add nutes, soil stores it. While wet less is available, as the root zone dries out, the feeder roots will keep seeking more nutes, this allows the plant to uptake the nutes and use it up. Dry means the once u go to lift the pot it’s light, but plant isn’t wilting. Then water , let that dry to half of dry, then feed 1/2 dose and let it dry again, rinse and repeat this formula. Only flush if there is a need but don’t arbitrarily flush. It’s counter intuitive and bad for the plant.
TLDR: version
Soil is dead, over flushed, over watered, roots in trouble. Repot. Don’t flush. Dry in between feeds/water.

As I was reading your reply I stopped at my "soil was depleted" because of over flushing. I only flushed once to see if there was a lockout or salt build up. Therefore I don't think my soil is depleted by only one flush.
Now I already repotted the plants 1 week ago into 7gal pots with new soil cut with perlite, I started watering with only 20% of what it says and slowly working my way up. The problem is there. I understand that in flower leaves turn yellow and fall off, but these plants look as though I lolly popped them. I have not had to deleaf because they fall off. There is plenty of light hitting them.

 

[Roxyheart420]

FWIW: Many products are like that. It's customary to advise people to feed half what the label/schedule says, unless someone's used the product and knows what works. It's more the norm than the exception, from what I've seen. I don't know why they do that. People say it's sell more product. But, it leads to bad experiences which you'd think would cause fewer sales, bad reputations, etc.

It appears to me that 250-400 ppm nutrient strength (not counting water ppms) is the typical range for soil. Hydro & soilless are typically twice as strong. (And then, if the soil already has nutrients you'd use less.).

Thank you for that reply because no one has ever told me that. Now that makes since to me. OK so when your plants color is lime green what does that indicate?

 

[az2000]

Now that makes since to me. OK so when your plants color is lime green what does that indicate?

I'd have to see a specific example. Could be new growth. Could be Mg or N def. Zinc or iron def.

What did you think about my lighting questions? Are you under T5 (or T5HO)? Or, under HPS? How many hours do those bulbs have on them?

If they've suffered lumen deprecation (many hours of use), that could explain some things. Plants won't use the nutrients in the soil without adequate light (in terms of PAR, not what you see with your eyes). That could contribute to nutrient buildup even though you think you're feeding a sane amount. The lower leaves would suffer. Especially with fluorescent.

But, I don't think that explains why some clones died. Unless they were crowded around the periphery and not getting enough light.

It all sounds strange. I agree with you that soil depletion doesn't sound right when the runoff is 2500ppm. Unless the ppms are some kind of garbage (sulfates and sodium?). Did you mention what the ppm is of your tap water? Mine is 600-800. If I make my nutrient solution with that I could have the kind of problem you're having. The garbage ppms would interfere with the good ppms. The runoff would be high ppm, even though it's not useful salts.

 

[oldskol4evr]

I am hoping an advanced grower can help me with my problem. I'm getting really bad feed back from other people. Here is the line up:
Strain: Purple Punch
Stage: first week of flower/ this is not a new problem. Problem all through veg
Medium: Happy Frog
Nutrients: Heavy16 line /I use the whole line and follow the feeding schedule online
I do not over water, I use a meter and wait until they are ready
I flush about every 2 weeks
I use Sea Green 1ml per gal. with every feeding
I use Heavy16 Foliar twice a week with 1ml of roots and 1ml fire added
I don't have to adjust my ph because the Heavy16 line does it for you. So going in is 6.5ph Coming out is 5.5ph
Because I'm in soil it's hard to determine the PPM coming out. But it's always around 2500ppm

Now onto the problem. After reading numerous articles it looks like Nitrogen deficiency. Lower to mid leaves are turning yellow then brown and crisp, then falling off.
But how is this possible if I'm using the line exactly as directed?
A few people I have talked to say to Flush. That is always there go to answer on everything. Well, I've done that and it has not cleared up. I have tried lowering nutrients, nope, that didn't work. Someone suggested watering more often, nope, that didn't work.
Nitrogen deficiency looks like the logical answer from all the pictures and articles. Lower to mid leaves turning yellow, then crispy, then falling off. Tops are nice and green (lime green) not dark. They say it steals nitrogen from the bottom for the top, but eventually working its way to the top.

So if this seems to be the problem, how do I fix it? To top it all off one article said if you are using a nutrient line and feeding to schedule it's probably NOT a Nitrogen deficiency. So now I am at a loss.
Thank you so much for any feed back.
PS. I hate to say this but my gut tells me I got some bad clones from the start. The clones looked weak. Genetics could be bad. I could be wrong.

Attaching photos.

off subject,if you had a fifty acre corn field,worked all winter testing and getting your soil nutes right on cue,you plant corn,they comeup fast and strong,then about 2ft tall rain sets in and rains for several days to weeks,were does all those nutrients go? answer down and into water table right?how can you flush soil,i hear it all the time and most times i just scroll right past the thread,look you cannot flush soil period period,it cannot happen,even when you water to the 20%runoff again folks say,it flushes every thing from the pot not even your bennies are there you washed them away,taking ppm reading from runoff how?its soil it buffer the ph and ppm itself,okay off that horse take it and run cause all the folks telling you to flush has fucked your plant up,those plant could be transplanted i would because im sure you have compacted soil doing this every other week,so that is my opinion and just mine,you tried there way now try mine,transplant them into happy frog or ocean,yes they might stress but thing is in compacted soil whats it gonna hurt the roots cant exchange because of lack of air if you dig,good side is that your not in 150 gal pots and done as you have,that be drastic disaster,think im full shit,take just one plant and do as recommended and see what it gonna hurt

 

[Seraphine]

This is from the nutrient website:

I would do what the manufacturer recommends since you said pH going in is 6.5 and the runoff is 5.5.

 

[oldskol4evr]

just read threw some the comments,believe me im no expert grower ,let put it this way,right from the hannah scale documented from years gone back
seedling 100-250ppm 0.2-0.8 ec
early veg 300-400ppm 0.6-0.8 ec
full veg 450-700ppm 0.9-1.4 ec
early bloom 750-950 ppm 1.5-1.9 ec
mature bloom 1000-1600 ppm 2.0-3.2 ec
so soil for cannibis look at the chart for soil,6.5 is dead in the middle for all nutrient uptake after adding all your nutes ph to 6.5,if your using silica add it first then add your nutes,silica will raise that ppm way up,adjust by using less nutrients or dont use silica and feed more nutes ,watch your numbers ,soil buffers but you need to go threw the basics first using meters when you got smoke to sit on then you can try your luck without meters ,we all do ,but how many of we gardeners went threw same thing you are until we figured it out,moisture meter is gonna be your best friend until you can feel a pot are just look at leaves and tell when they need feed,them cheap ass meters that do light ,moisture and ph dont bother,a digital soil moisture probe go around 30 bucks do a digital,slurry test easy as shit to do and should do every couple weeks to tell salt buildup your ph pen will give you the score on it,keep your ph 6.5 moisture in pot 45 to 55 percent and ppm for stage of growth and your gold,like i said no expert but i bet you can rock them with this info,hope this helps

 

[Seraphine]

IMO opinion, I would reduce PPM too. 2500ppm is crazy high. In addition to getting more run off when you feed, get those plants on stands so they are not sitting in runoff. Add a fan blowing gently over the top of the soil too.

 

[Seraphine]

I would still get a pH meter and test that pH before you feed. I know you said it’s 6.5 going in but have you actually checked it yourself? I don’t trust anything that self adjusts pH. But that’s just me. also, like others have said, cannabis does not like “wet feet” so it’s best to feed deeply (get lots of run off) and let the soil dry (which is why I recommended adding the fan to help dry that soil out).

 

[Seraphine]

One last thing. The website said it adjusts to 5.5 - 6.5 because it can be used for soil and soiless media. Say for example, it’s self adjusting itself to 5.5, the roots won’t be able to uptake the nutrients. I don’t think that line has a magical ingredient that will change your plants biologically to miraculously uptake all its nutrients at a 5.5ph in soil. Now soiless media would be fine at 5.5-5.9 but the pH at the root zone needs to be 6.0-6.8 in soil.

 

[az2000]

One last thing. The website said it adjusts to 5.5 - 6.5 because it can be used for soil and soiless media. Say for example, it’s self adjusting itself to 5.5, the roots won’t be able to uptake the nutrients. I don’t think that line has a magical ingredient that will change your plants biologically to miraculously uptake all its nutrients at a 5.5ph in soil. Now soiless media would be fine at 5.5-5.9 but the pH at the root zone needs to be 6.0-6.8 in soil.

It's puzzling why he had a good grow, followed by two bad ones. How would his ph be good once, and then change?

From what I can tell, the only thing that changed was Happy Frog the first time, Ocean Forest the next two times. Maybe the soil's ph is off. Something about those OF bags.

I agree with you that 2500ppm is high, and suggests overfeeding. But, the plants don't look burned or in lockout. They look underfed, not the kind of overfed deficiency you'd expect.

When I grew the first time, and didn't understand the significance of my 600-800ppm tap water, I had results like this. It was like the garbage ppms interfered with the roots accessing the good ppms. I didn't know to check runoff ppms then. But, I imagine they would have been high, even though the ppms weren't nutrients (didn't burn). The plants didn't thrive, but didn't look too bad. The sort of thing when people keep the soil too wet.

 

[Roxyheart420]

I'd have to see a specific example. Could be new growth. Could be Mg or N def. Zinc or iron def.

What did you think about my lighting questions? Are you under T5 (or T5HO)? Or, under HPS? How many hours do those bulbs have on them?

If they've suffered lumen deprecation (many hours of use), that could explain some things. Plants won't use the nutrients in the soil without adequate light (in terms of PAR, not what you see with your eyes). That could contribute to nutrient buildup even though you think you're feeding a sane amount. The lower leaves would suffer. Especially with fluorescent.

But, I don't think that explains why some clones died. Unless they were crowded around the periphery and not getting enough light.

It all sounds strange. I agree with you that soil depletion doesn't sound right when the runoff is 2500ppm. Unless the ppms are some kind of garbage (sulfates and sodium?). Did you mention what the ppm is of your tap water? Mine is 600-800. If I make my nutrient solution with that I could have the kind of problem you're having. The garbage ppms would interfere with the good ppms. The runoff would be high ppm, even though it's not useful salts.

I'm now under HPS 1000wts and they only have 8 weeks under them. I switched them out on the last run. I use a tall boy filter for my water. When I put the ppm meter in water w/o nutes it's 000 ppms. They aren't crowed enough to not get enough light. It's just weird.

 

[Jack og]

It's puzzling why he had a good grow, followed by two bad ones. How would his ph be good once, and then change?

From what I can tell, the only thing that changed was Happy Frog the first time, Ocean Forest the next two times. Maybe the soil's ph is off. Something about those OF bags.

I agree with you that 2500ppm is high, and suggests overfeeding. But, the plants don't look burned or in lockout. They look underfed, not the kind of overfed deficiency you'd expect.

When I grew the first time, and didn't understand the significance of my 600-800ppm tap water, I had results like this. It was like the garbage ppms interfered with the roots accessing the good ppms. I didn't know to check runoff ppms then. But, I imagine they would have been high, even though the ppms weren't nutrients (didn't burn). The plants didn't thrive, but didn't look too bad. The sort of thing when people keep the soil too wet.

I’ve had trouble with happy frog, I find that it ends up rotting the root zone, it’s too dense and I’ve learned to cut it with basement mix, coco-perlite and I’ve had no issues since. Maybe that’s the issue combined with the higher ppm values coming back? Hard to say . But gut tells me from what I see that it’s related to moisture and root damage. Leaves don’t fall off that way, they yellow gradually and brown out but don’t turn and wilt like your pics show. It’s why I suspected depletion, cause that’s the first thing a plant does , saves the tops and sacrifice the lower limbs. But damage to root zone will also exhibit similar issues. But since you have repotted. Don’t water to flush or run off, cut nutes wayyyy back and let the plant tell ya when to feed. I grow 100’s k per cycle and learned quickly that the plant will let ya know when she is hungry.

 

[Seraphine]

It's puzzling why he had a good grow, followed by two bad ones. How would his ph be good once, and then change?

From what I can tell, the only thing that changed was Happy Frog the first time, Ocean Forest the next two times. Maybe the soil's ph is off. Something about those OF bags.

I agree with you that 2500ppm is high, and suggests overfeeding. But, the plants don't look burned or in lockout. They look underfed, not the kind of overfed deficiency you'd expect.

When I grew the first time, and didn't understand the significance of my 600-800ppm tap water, I had results like this. It was like the garbage ppms interfered with the roots accessing the good ppms. I didn't know to check runoff ppms then. But, I imagine they would have been high, even though the ppms weren't nutrients (didn't burn). The plants didn't thrive, but didn't look too bad. The sort of thing when people keep the soil too wet.

From my understanding, FFOF is loaded with more amendments than happy frog. Organic matter (amendments) in your soil will lower the pH of the soil. So he’s been trying to fix the issue of probably too low pH (acidic) at the root zone by flushing and messing around with other variables which just caused more root issues.

In my opinion, the root cause of his issues is the soil he is using. FFOF is too hot and too acidic for that that nutrient line, he probably needed a basic potting soil mix with no added amendments for his self adjusting pH nutrient line.

I don’t understand why use an organic soil with all the needed ammendments/inputs for a successful grow and then go mess with it by adding synthetic inputs. You don’t need all these extras, plants require only the basics. They’re not like humans where if you over feed them, they’ll get all fat and happy. Plants will die if over fed and will cause all sorts of issues.

 

[Beachwalker]

Thank you for that reply because no one has ever told me that. Now that makes since to me. OK so when your plants color is lime green what does that indicate?

I told you that in your Ice Ice Baby thread; your plant issue is very simple to see, whether you want to hear it or not seems more complex an issue!? Good luck.

Your perlite suggests over-watering and or keeping it too wet

adjust pH of everything going in to 6.5

Stop feeding; Fox Farm ocean Forest has plenty of newts for plants that size for 4 - 6 weeks and you're feeding much too strong a ppm anyway, try half what the label says when you eventually start feeding again

Follow these above steps & watch the new growth, it should get better

Eventually start to feed at half strength

and stop Flushing