Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

[Hermitian]

I believe being able to fully control the ratios and ppms/ element is the way to dial in the diet of a strain. If you want to truly master a strain, then knowing how to combine the formulas is a must IMHO.

It is already well understood -- and not just for Cannabis strains but for 100's of other strains of economically viable crops. Further, it is not a simple matter that you can determine from experimentation unless you have mastered bio-chemistry at the college level. In this short article, the author describes the "tip of the iceberg" that awaits you: Guide to Micronutrients.

 

[Capulator]

Not all strains feed the same. I dont have to be a chemist to know that. I can tell you that from experience. OUt of the bag formulas can be awesome, and still not be perfect. They need to be tweaked for your specific strain, for OPTIMUM plant health (same with temps, RH, light spectrum, direction etc..). Im not trying to be a master at bio chemistry, but I do enjoy learning about plants and the physiological process they go through in order to produce flower.

 

[Hermitian]

Not all strains feed the same.

True.

OUt of the bag formulas can be awesome, and still not be perfect.

If you want an out-of-the-bag formula for tuned for specific strains and environments, they already exist. But you'd better know what specs you want and don't expect the bag to be labeled for Cannabis. If you don't know what specs are ideal for your strain, then go talk to an agricultural scientist who specializes in budding annual dicots.

If all other factors in your environment are near-ideal, then in comparison to the best available standard formula for the crop, a specially tuned formula may improve your crop quality by 5%. Dosage is key. Professional growers will have leaf samples analyzed about every 15 days by a lab or purchase a mass spectrometer for this purpose. Typically this is only economically viable for large-scale production.

I don't recommend a trial and error approach, especially when coupled with here-say advice. To do so is to embrace the European Middle Ages.

 

[Capulator]

isnt trial and error the basis for all we know?

EXAMPLE: plant x is showing a specific symptom. I believe that this symptom is caused by not enough (insert element/mineral here). I adjust the next time, and give plant x a little more of said element/mineral. It improves. I add more yet again the next time. I get another symptom that looks like toxicity. I back off.

Isnt this trial and error? I am not going to have tissue sample analysis done every 2 weeks. I would rather pinpoint and troubleshoot, until my plants are uber healthy.

I understand that this is very complex, especially due to how the micros and macros play off eachother. However, I dont think I need to have a degree in micro biology or chemisty to understand it eventually. Experience is far better than school. Plus, I have all the tools to research whatever I want right here at my desk.

 

[Capulator]

Here is mulders chart. Fat arrows show stimulation, and skinny ones are antagonism.

Basically, all of the nutes play off of eachother. If you have too much of one it leads to unavailability of another, or if you have some of one, it can lead to even more uptake of another. Thats why RATIOS are so important.

Are all plants similar? sure... but surely they do not all require the same needs. I have worked aroudn plants in the nursery industry for 10+ years. Azaleas have a different diet than say... palm trees.

I am sure you know about this hermitian, but I thought I would post it here for everyone.

I realize that you have to hit the tip of the iceberg first. This is just a start for me.

 

[Tony69]

Hello Capulator,
You mentioned using a Brix mix made by Groworganic.com I see you can measure the Brix of a plant by using a refractometer. I believe these would help with a quantitative number you could use to judge the sugars in your plants. $80.00

I greatly appreciate all of your input. I find myself researching so many topics because of the entries you make. Thanks again.

 

[Hermitian]

I am constantly amazed at the reluctance of some people to seek out the assistance of a person or persons who spend a good portion of their professional life pursuing exactly the subject at hand. Marketing professionals absolutely love this sector of society because it allows them to create focus groups and an entire culture based on avoiding more cost effective answers. It is also these same group of "avoiders" who are the first to cry foul when someone points out they are the victims of usury marketing practices. In particular, look at the title of this very thread!!!

isnt trial and error the basis for all we know?

EXAMPLE: plant x is showing a specific symptom. I believe that this symptom is caused by not enough (insert element/mineral here). I adjust the next time, and give plant x a little more of said element/mineral. It improves. I add more yet again the next time. I get another symptom that looks like toxicity. I back off.

Isnt this trial and error? I am not going to have tissue sample analysis done every 2 weeks. I would rather pinpoint and troubleshoot, until my plants are uber healthy.

I understand that this is very complex, especially due to how the micros and macros play off eachother. However, I dont think I need to have a degree in micro biology or chemisty to understand it eventually. Experience is far better than school. Plus, I have all the tools to research whatever I want right here at my desk.

 

[Capulator]

I am constantly amazed at the reluctance of some people to seek out the assistance of a person or persons who spend a good portion of their professional life pursuing exactly the subject at hand. Marketing professionals absolutely love this sector of society because it allows them to create focus groups and an entire culture based on avoiding more cost effective answers. It is also these same group of "avoiders" who are the first to cry foul when someone points out they are the victims of usury marketing practices. In particular, look at the title of this very thread!!!

Yo herm,

WTF are you talking about? Are you implying that I am reluctant to seek assistance from professionals, or are you just making generalizations?

By sourcing your own salts and mixing yourself, which is not that hard once you understand how it works... aren't you making it as cheap as possible?

I have another thread here where I found a source of bennies, found out that pretty much all the "hydro companies" (ie AN, plant success, botanicare etc), are issuing a 1000% markup.

I talk to chemists, biologists, horticulturalists, and people who have been growing for a LONG time. I was reading books when I was 14, about Dr. Resh and his hydro tomatoes. I like to learn. I like hands on learning if it is safe to apply myself.

I am not sure, but it seems that you are trying to insult me.

Going back, what I said was that a rep at jr peters said it woudl be a good idea if you are using RO water to add back some HIGH QUALITY SUPPLEMENTS. I called and asked, nobody was marketing it to me.

This ^^^ is perfectly relevent to this thread. CHEAP ALTERNATIVES TO OVERPRICED NUTES, given the thread immediately steered us to Jacks, which a few of us here are using (and documenting) with great success. Cost- a fraction of the bottled shit.

The rest of the bullshit after and this weird pissing contest I seem to have found myself in for no apparent reason is not relevant.... so lets get back on topic. :banana1sv6:

 

[Capulator]

Hello Capulator,
You mentioned using a Brix mix made by Groworganic.com I see you can measure the Brix of a plant by using a refractometer. I believe these would help with a quantitative number you could use to judge the sugars in your plants. $80.00

I greatly appreciate all of your input. I find myself researching so many topics because of the entries you make. Thanks again.

Thanks man. I am trying to get all the ingredients for the dry brix mix. I'm going to look in to the meter, so I can run side by sides.

The user Yosemitesam said that this product was one he swore by. By all the reading I have done on his threads, I feel that he really knows his shit... so I am just following suit.

This site you linked is the same one that used to carry the brix mix.

Here is the link for the meter for anyone who is too lazy to look through the site: http://www.groworganic.com/refractometer-atc.html

 

[kushtrees]

Im looking to try out jacks hydro and cal nitrate soon and had a couple questions thought you guys could help me out.

1. anyone use addatives with these products? i currently use HG and love root excel and multizen also protek silica, anyone have any experience with these, i figured theyd mix fine, but just checking

2. if using RO should you adjust any ratios? more cal nitrate? I figure this is more strain dependant, but curious about it. Just saw a post about the micro blend by capulator, think thats important? anyone tried it yet?

great thread everyone wonderful info here

 

[jyip]

This is not a stem this is a leaf....it was huge....this is an open tunnel for feeding the plant!!! The aromas from removing the leaves was and is stunning. Its like the leaves bleed or something because they are so full of water and life. This

snowblind

sounds impressive and looks big in pic,,,i'm writing tho cuz yrs back my brother had some outdoor sativa plants goin ( way back in early 1980's so i kno they were sativas, actually still have pics
but with his, when he piched off a sunleave or snipped a branch top red sticky goo came out of it,,, i will get back here witha a smell it had cuz i dont kno @ moment
just thought youd appreciate uniqueness as your's are too

 

[Tony69]

Capulator and Snowblind,

I just received Jack's Hydro Herb which I'm planning on running with 7 gallon airpots, Canna coca and perlite. What is the correct amount to use? Veg and Flower. I spoke with someone at Jack's and she recommended running the Herb and then alternate between the Bloom. What are your thoughts?

Thanks again.

 

[Capulator]

Capulator and Snowblind,

I just received Jack's Hydro Herb which I'm planning on running with 7 gallon airpots, Canna coca and perlite. What is the correct amount to use? Veg and Flower. I spoke with someone at Jack's and she recommended running the Herb and then alternate between the Bloom. What are your thoughts?

Thanks again.

Tony,

I am not using the hydro herb. I am using the jacks hydro blend and the CaNO3.

I think SB is doing the same at the moment, but regardless he will have better info than I will on it.

 

[Capulator]

Im looking to try out jacks hydro and cal nitrate soon and had a couple questions thought you guys could help me out.

1. anyone use addatives with these products? i currently use HG and love root excel and multizen also protek silica, anyone have any experience with these, i figured theyd mix fine, but just checking

2. if using RO should you adjust any ratios? more cal nitrate? I figure this is more strain dependant, but curious about it. Just saw a post about the micro blend by capulator, think thats important? anyone tried it yet?

great thread everyone wonderful info here

The only additive I use is the protek silica. For a boost, I followd SBs advise and ran a little higher on the hydro (3.5g/Gal)

Here is a link to my journal that is all jacks.



scroll to the bottom of page 4 to see close ups. Dense buds, no airy shit. Great looking foliage. Flowers not any more leafy than usual. No flushing at all yet. Leaves look perfect since I started feeding 80% strength.

 

[Snowblind]

The only additive I use is the protek silica. For a boost, I followd SBs advise and ran a little higher on the hydro (3.5g/Gal)

Here is a link to my journal that is all jacks.



scroll to the bottom of page 4 to see close ups. Dense buds, no airy shit. Great looking foliage. Flowers not any more leafy than usual. No flushing at all yet. Leaves look perfect since I started feeding 80% strength.

Man I hope my boost technique works for you....I just need to figure what P to shoot for to stimulate flower. Im sure you can blast your plants with more P and get more swollen buds, but they might not best for your individual needs.

 

[Capulator]

SB I have no signs of deficiencies or toxicitys.

These girls are blowing up at day 30.

Im still trying to figure out the right ratios. I think I will look in to poinsettias, since they are very similar to MJ (at least as far as being a phototropic species with flowers).


In fact, Jr peters sells a poinsettia formula, and I am not sure if you know, but poinsettias are a HUGE business... every christmas they gotta roll them out to appease the masses.

 

[Snowblind]

Capulator and Snowblind,

I just received Jack's Hydro Herb which I'm planning on running with 7 gallon airpots, Canna coca and perlite. What is the correct amount to use? Veg and Flower. I spoke with someone at Jack's and she recommended running the Herb and then alternate between the Bloom. What are your thoughts?

Thanks again.

I would run this at 2.75 grams per gallon to 3.0 to see what happens. I posted above somewhere the ppm of the hydro herb. You want your N levels to be somewhere from 110-125 or 130 of N in your formula. You use the to bloom booster to stimulate flower production after 12/12. People do this after the flip always. It could be done during the first week or 2nd or 3rd. Depends on the person and none seems to no whats best. I like week three for the first P boost. Kinda after the stretch. High P during the stretch promotes stertching of the plants in my mind so I want to keep that P low in early flower.The idea is the spike in P after the stretch helps to stimulate flower production. I have not talked to Carrie at Peters labs about the exact methods yet for using the herb formula.You would feed the bloom booster while cutting back the hydro herb formula. I am still running the Jacks Hydroponic with added Calcium Nitrate as this is what I know and feel most comfortable with. Im interested in finnishing my plants with the hydro herb formula as its very low in P maybe during the last couple of weeks.. This will make for great tasting herb. I was using the hydro herb in a reso for a week but switched back to the Jacks hydro formula.

SB I have no signs of deficiencies or toxicitys.

These girls are blowing up at day 30.

Im still trying to figure out the right ratios. I think I will look in to poinsettias, since they are very similar to MJ (at least as far as being a phototropic species with flowers).


In fact, Jr peters sells a poinsettia formula, and I am not sure if you know, but poinsettias are a HUGE business... every christmas they gotta roll them out to appease the masses.

Do you think pushing the P until the leaves curl is good? What do you think that would be 50 to 60 ppm?

 

[Tony69]

Thanks Snowblind, I cracked open several beans of White Fire, LSD, Critical + and Critical Herer. They are about 3 to 4 inches right now. I'm going to start feeding them soon. As soon as I put them into flower I'll start posting pictures. I'm going to run them all the way with Jacks and your advice. I'm going to send in a water sample and have it tested at Jacks. They recommend doing these since we are running well water and would like to know if we should use any of there Trace Minerals. Thanks again.

 

[Snowblind]

The hydro herb looks to have very low calcium. If you have a lot of calcium in your water this might work out for you.

I would just dilute the flower formula a little for veg. The stronger the lights are in veg the stronger your nutes can be. You will need epsom salts!!!!

 

[Coloradofrost]

Got a cpl question for you guys using the Jacks professional. First off whats dmz as I have seen SB post it a cpl times. 2nd Do you guys also source your calcium nitrate and epsom salts from jr peters. As its my first time buying any of these products is 25lbs for $18 (epsom) and 25lbs for $29.50(nitrate) a reasonable price? ~peace