Oh My God, He Turned It INSIDE OUT!!!

  • Thread starter ttystikk
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None

Am I nuts? Or, does an inside-out tree make sense to you?


  • Total voters
    44
Status
Not open for further replies.
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
i would think that slit would cause more surface area for the air to interact with the water. but what do i know may not change a thing

Following the advice of others, I raised the water level in my system, which then interfered with the split tube sprayers I was using. So, back to a regular old fitting in the top of the tub.

Not every idea is a winner, but the ability to sort through them improves one's ability to problem solve and think critically.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
have you thought about using a couple mister heads in each bucket..
aero/undercurrent

Yes I have and I'm concerned about clogs due to this being a recirculating system. Right now it's pretty clog proof since the smallest orifice is 3/8".
 
monkeymun

monkeymun

755
93
Anyway, I wanted to thank all those with the patience to wait this long- nevermind the slog thru 12 pages of theory and 'are we there yet?'

You know you're on to a good idea when it attracts 12 pages of discussion on the technical feasibility and details of it.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
You know you're on to a good idea when it attracts 12 pages of discussion on the technical feasibility and details of it.

It's even better when that idea actually works, too!

The main holdup with this approach is the veg stages, and so that's where I've been focusing my attention lately.

I'm thinking of making trellises that angle some 45 degrees from vertical and hanging my bulb(s) at an angle in the crease between wall and ceiling. The idea is to get the plants growing on a flat plane early, so they develop the correct structure from the beginning.

I was thinking about solar panels following the sun and came up with this. Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Yeah, I can see vegging will be some serious work. The payoff will be worth it fortunately.

I think the trellis will do most of that work for me.

One of the things I tell people looking for more yield is to properly train their plants for the space. Those who take this suggestion seriously and follow it assiduously always thank me for showing them how to double their output. Or more.

I'm more convinced than ever that the secret to success in growing is the veg. SOG, ScrOG, espalier, even pollarding are all techniques used throughout agriculture to improve the yield of plants on an individual basis, which adds up fast across a whole garden, orchard- or growroom.

In my case, I'm using espalier techniques to grow the plant flat against a trellis to optimize the relationship between it and its light source. I am certain this will lead to some surprising results.

The main thing I've learned with my cylinder grow thus far is that the plants need to be READY for the system; they need to be hardened off to deal with a bare thouie blasting right in their face all day and they need to have the right shape to properly fill a big trellis.
 
monkeymun

monkeymun

755
93
I've seen a diverse and something odd bunch of plants being grown using the espalier technique. From grapes to plums and peaches! Cannabis is a fast growing annual, so should suit the technique well.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
I've seen a diverse and something odd bunch of plants being grown using the espalier technique. From grapes to plums and peaches! Cannabis is a fast growing annual, so should suit the technique well.

I'm far from the first to exploit this in cannabis- I'm stealing from the best here, including @Capulator and @Jalisco Kid !
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
So now I'm coming at this from the other end; I've been running ebb n flood tables in my veg for years, but now I think that has been a long unrecognized mistake. Why put my plants on a hard surface if I want them to grow roots from the bottom?

So, having recognized the problem, I devised a solution to run my entire veg in RDWC- all except the rooted clones/little moms/bullpen area. I now have not one, but two RDWC in my veg tent; one with 12 sites of 4 gallon square buckets, and the other a six site unit made up of five gallon buckets. Tables in my veg tent have been put out to pasture!

The twelve handles two stages of vegetative growth, and sits in one end of a 4'x8' grow tent. A 130W LED lights the group of smaller ladies. The other side is lit by a 400W hps, which lights the next larger group. A thousand watt MH in an adjust-a-wing lights the six serving as the prebloom veg. This is going to make a real difference in the quality of plants I deliver to the bloom room.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Flipped on Turkey day, the girls are really enjoying their new home. Not much to show in pics as yet, they're just growing in all directions, green and lush.

I have yet to build a light mover and that may be contributing to some light burn on some bigger fan leaves. I have fans blowing across the plants, temps in the low 80s, RH 60-65%, CO² 1500 ppm.

Okay, light burn. From one bulb, lighting an entire 50 square foot surface by itself, where in another room I have four fixtures doing essentially the same job over a 50ft² horizontal trellis. Where the Fuck did all this INTENSITY come from, especially considering it's so widely distributed?!

Kinda makes ya think, don't it? o_O
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Copied and reposted here, due to relevancy;

Here's the thing about innovation, and about improving as a grower; to the plants both are one and the same activity, with results for your crop that are ultimately immaterial as to whether they're the result of better technology, better growing techniques, or both.

You can be a great grower and not get good results from your shoplight. You can be a lousy grower and get poor results from a $100k room- and believe me, we've seen it here on the Farm!

There's an old theory in agricultural nutrition, the leaky barrel theory. It's the idea that your crop is constrained by the weakest nutrient in their feed (the shortest barrel stave), but I think the concept explains the whole gardening process very well. Whatever input is furthest from the ideal is the constraint- and this includes techniques not commonly thought of as 'technology', like keeping different stages of plants apart so they don't cross contaminate each other with pests. The failure of pest management is just as sure a path to ruin as sloppy practices or bad gear.

Indoors, the technology aspect takes center stage due to the totally artificial nature of the environment; without the tech, it would just be a roomful of dead plants in the dark! Talking about what's 'natural' indoors must thus be done with care, as does making basic assumptions about the best way to proceed.

I've recently had a technological epiphany; growing a flat landscape of crops inside is just a failure of the imagination- and worse, it makes incorrect assumptions about the technology involved. Outside, sunlight has had 93 million miles to attenuate; light intensity on a mountaintop versus Death Valley has much more to do with atmospheric conditions than proximity to the sun.

Inside is a whole different story; light intensity remains the prime driver of the plants we're growing all right, but everything ELSE changed! The light itself is immeasurably dimmer than the sun- yet it's extremely close- to the point where a foot or two makes the difference between insufficient light pressure and damage from too much. In spite of this, we still assume that growing plants as if we're outside is the best course. We build elaborate light fixtures to 'correct' for the basic nature of the light we've created- and they and the light they produce is compromised in every way. We create a flat farmland-like plane for the plants to be woven into, even though outdoors the plants are never level!

Well, it's time to turn such old ideas on their head, literally. Why does the light need to be overhead? The sun doesn't stay overhead, why should our lighting? Why not take better advantage of the relatively small donut shape of our light's 'goldilocks zone', just like our planet does around the sun? How many squares are there in nature- so why do our growing techniques constantly try to square off round corners?

This need not be expensive. My grow cylinders are cut lengths of field fencing, bought second hand, hung from the ceiling with nylon cord. My RDWC tubs are the very ones available at home dePot for $10 apiece. A vertical socket with 15' cord is hands down the least expensive lighting fixture you'll ever buy for your grow!

20131118_214601-jpg.356625

Sorry about the sideways, but here's the basic system; not pricey, not complicated.

You still trellis your plants- only instead of bending and chopping them as they grow upwards and spreading them out, your trellis is always next to the plant, beanstalk style. The plant grows up normally, all the while growing into place on the trellis, as the light comes from behind it.

Oh yes- that light; at a distance of 18" out less, it will burn. At two feet, it's perfect for strong, vigorous growth and production. At three feet, it's already getting too weak for peak results and production suffers. So why do we insist on lighting a flat plane placed at a tangent to it?! It's a recipe for disaster from an efficiency standpoint! We farm flat on the ground outside because that's how we've always done it- I'm not even sure it's actually the best way. Indoors, I'm damn sure it sucks- and you already know why.

So vertical trellis solves real problems associated with indoor technology and the needs and habits if the plants themselves. Because they solve these problems efficiently, I believe they represent the next frontier in the search for higher yields per square foot, and for lower costs.

The trellis I made is four feet tall- convenient since it's fencing- and I made sections 6'3" long. Each section thus totals exactly 25ft², and two of them bent end to end make a circle just 4' across. So, that makes 50ft² of growing surface inside, on a footprint of just 16ft². Does one thouie adequately light it? I'm getting leaf burn if that tells you anything! To solve the leaf burn and create the proper distribution of light inside the cylinder, I need to finish and install my light mover.

The essential point is this; I'm doing a better job of lighting 50ft² with one bulb by turning the trellis into a playpen than I am with four lights in conventional fixtures covering 50ft² of standard horizontal trellis! Imagine what that does to my light bill, and as near as I can figure- watch my threads for updates- there is no reason to expect my yields per square foot to falter; in fact, I expect increases.

So how long will I have to wait for such a plant to grow into the trellis? That's what perpetual veg spaces are for; again, I've just changed the focus of training from a flattop 'do to tall and skinny mohawk style- a shape the plant takes to readily anyway. I'm all set to deliver bloom ready plants to the trellis that will slip into place and fill it in during their stretch phase.

Assuming I had room (I don't), I could fit four of these cylinders into each of four 10x10' rooms, and command a full 800ft² of actual trellis bloom space!

So let's take this a step further, say, up a stepladder. Take that same 4'x6'3" panel and turn it sideways -what's another veg stage among friends?! With the right tub it will just fit under an 8' ceiling, and three of them together have the same twelve foot circumference that makes a four foot circle. Now each cylinder has 75ft² inside... Perfect for two 600W bulbs? In the four room example above, that means a four bedroom house could theoretically boast a full 1200ft² of trellised blooming space! AND STAY ON A 100A BREAKER.

Four panels upright make 16 feet, divide by pi and you get a cylinder just over 5' across- with a staggering 100ft² inside. I bet this one kicks ass with a couple thouies in it!

The future looks bright. Now, what did I do with my shades?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Copied n pasted because I get off on a riff- on the wrong thread.

There's another important aspect to consider, the one which originally drew me to vertical in the first place; light distribution.

In a standard setup, the light is strongest- even too strong- in the middle directly under the fixture, but lacking long before one gets to the corners. Worse, there's a huge amount of energy that's lost just because it missed the target and went off sideways- including into your face.

In the vertical cylinder, there is no place that's either too far, or too close- it's all perfect. And the only way light can escape without crossing the plane of foliage is through the top or bottom- and I'm working with a master metal fabricator to create curved metal bounce cards to fit in the ends and reflect otherwise wasted light back inside to the adjacent plants. Another way to think about it could be that I've made the reflector so big all the plants fit inside it.

Part of this light direction system will be little disks that fit into the mogul socket base of the lights and redirects light that's otherwise at too oblique an angle to be useful. Between the end caps and the disk, there will be no way light can escape the end of the cylinder alive!
MUAHAHAHA!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
New photos today, flipped on Thanksgiving. They're growing as fast or faster than I've ever seen anything else grow, I think it's the enforced distance between plant and light source that's doing such a great job of giving the plant all it wants without letting it grow itself into trouble.

Recently had a consult with a friend and he pointed out some deficiencies in my nutrient program- the new formula is obviously working out well, wouldn't you say?

The second pic is actually the larger of the two plants, the picture was taken at more of an oblique angle.

This raises a point; part of the efficiency here is the fact that the plant only grows in the goldilocks zone- it doesn't have to grow up to it first, as in traditional ScrOG. This accelerates the process of filling out the screen, and it does something else; now, the whole plant grows and lives in the goldilocks zone of proper distance from the light- and every part of it gets prime illumination. There is no longer any real depth to the plant in terms of distance from the light, it's become two dimensional.

20131207 123457
20131207 123534
 
Last edited:
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Looks like you're losing a lot of light bro.

If you're talking about what's coming through the empty trellis, yes. On the other hand, these are the best plants I had at the time and they've adapted well. They're four feet across and almost three feet tall, they just look small in the 6x4 trellis. They also have some time yet to go in stretch, so they'll spread out even a bit more yet. Meanwhile, this isn't bad for two plants- and think critically about how much light is lost/wasted in your own setup? I can promise you that although this looks wasteful, its productivity will be just as apparent.
 
donmekka

donmekka

358
93
Also how do you maintainence it ie access the inside ? This is something I have been giving a lot of thought to lately as I am gonna set up a new room and wanna get the most bang for my buck. I can post pics of my sketch if you like.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom