Run off EC is 3.0-6.0

qupee · Nov 27, 2013

I've been helping show a friend the ropes and she's been having what appears to be a lockout/pH problem. Leaves feeling leathery and clawing upwards, looking like early magnesium and/or nitrogen deficiency.

After flushing them a few different times I've been reading sometimes around 1500ppm and last night it was over 3000ppm. I think the meter converts at 500, the instructions say to calibrate it to a 1000ppm calibration fluid, which I've done a few times.

The one thing I wonder about is the dirt is old, it was leftovers another friend gave her that had been sitting around for a year maybe two. It was really dry at first and we had to break it all up and wet it for it to be usable (wetted with city tap water that comes out at < 80 ppm and 7.5-ish pH).

She's got 4 chemy jones a bit over 3 weeks from seed. Started in plugs, now in Sunshine Advanced Mix #4. They were just transplanted from 4" square pots to I think 8" square pots, not sure of the volume but they're maybe about 10" tall, so medium-large-ish, couple gallons maybe.

A couple days later they were still showing lockout/pH type issues. So I mixed several gallons to try and flush things back to a baseline. She's using Botanicare line, so I mixed 2ml/g Silica Blast, 4 ml/g CalMag, 8ml/g Liquid Karma (that seems to raise the ppm most), and 4ml/g Pure Blend Pro Grow Soil. About 1.3ec and 6.8 pH going in (the LK raises the ec quite a bit it seems).

The run off came out at 3.0ec and 5.3pH, it was dark yellow like piss after a B vitamin. I figure, ok, we're still overfed. So right away I watered more with a fair amount of straight RO water, maybe 50% the volume of the pot in runoff, trying to clear the excess, it was fairly light yellow at that point. But when I measured the last bits of run-off I got over 3000ppm, or 6.0+ ec, and still low 5's pH.

I'm not even sure what to make of that, it's been a while since I've grown and to be honest I was never that great. But I don't understand why the run-off from a nute mix would test at 1500ppm and then right after after a good amount of runoff from RO water reading 3000ppm. What the heck is in the dirt and how can I get her to something stable. The pots are thoroughly soaked right now, as the roots are only just poking out the bottoms of the pots in a couple places. Should I just have her keep running RO through it until it's down around 1.0ec? Could old dirt somehow cause this (she has a couple more bags of it she was planning to use)?

Fresh Starts · Dec 1, 2013

If it were me- I would be less concerned with what was put into the soil previously and more concerned with removing it.
I'm not very familiar with Pro-mix but do what you can to flush the medium down to a low PPM (100-300 on a .5 conversion) That way you can reset the media to correct nutrient levels when you water again. Also, try to keep the EC/PPM low until your plants can recover-that also means keeping the lights dimmed and/or raised so you don't stress the plants out.

And a note about botanicare.
They seem to use the .7 conversion (which I don't understand why) which translates to a higher PPM/EC than .5- It can be easy to overdo it. Less is more right now.
EC 1.0 @ .7 conversion= 700 PPM
EC 1.0 @ .5 conversion=500 PPM

I know how recycling soils seems like a great idea- but for educational purposes its not the best way to learn for newbies. Imho it would have been worth the investment to start fresh. New soils that is. Hope that helps

qupee · Dec 2, 2013

So, just to update, I had her flush with a bunch of RO water, then feed with 1/3 strength of the Lucas formula equivalent using her Botanicare nutes (15ml/gal Pure Blend Pro Bloom for soil + 5ml/gal CalMag + 5ml/gal Liquid Karma). The plants responded very well to that. A couple days later the soil was still somewhat wet but water uptake appeared to be slowing, so I had her feed again with that 1/3 strength mix with plenty of runoff. Plants loved it, growth has been vigorous, and after another 2 days here the soil is mostly dry ready for another watering.

Seamaiden · Dec 2, 2013

It sounds like it's got a lotta crud built up in there, even just minerals from whatever water was being used can do it. In fact, I wouldn't give ANY more nutrients, I would give worm casting teas, that's it. I wouldn't worry much about feeding microbes at this point, either, just get that soil cleaned up and the plants going again. Castings are really your friend here.

qupee · Dec 2, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
I know how recycling soils seems like a great idea- but for educational purposes its not the best way to learn for newbies. Imho it would have been worth the investment to start fresh. New soils that is. Hope that helps

I wasn't very clear in my original post. The soil is old, but not used. Just a couple bags of Sunshine Advanced Mix #4 that had been sitting around for a year or two. That soil is a pretty light mix. If I were to compare it to Fox Farms it's much more like Light Warrior than Ocean Forrest.

I did also top-dress each container with a fat tablespoon of dolomite lime the night I first posted this, wondering if perhaps the old soil wasn't buffering pH well.

Between the added lime, good flush, and different nute mix things have been looking really good

Fresh Starts · Dec 2, 2013

Lucas formula equivalent with Botanicare? Interesting.
Dolomite lime is good stuff. I would err on the lower side of cal-mag dosage if you are amending with dolomite.
Are you using Botanicare PBP Bloom or Grow? I thought you were still vegging the ladies out..

qupee · Dec 3, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
Lucas formula equivalent with Botanicare? Interesting.
Dolomite lime is good stuff. I would err on the lower side of cal-mag dosage if you are amending with dolomite.
Are you using Botanicare PBP Bloom or Grow? I thought you were still vegging the ladies out..

Yes, just trying to implement some regimen with feeding. My friend was kind of just throwing varying amounts of PBP Grow, CalMag, LK at the plants trying to feed once, water next, and running into issues, so I suggested trying to stick closer to a well-known ratio. With Botanicare you can get close to the 100-100-200-60 (NPKMg) Lucas ratio by using 15 ml/g PBP Bloom Soil + 5 ml/g CalMag (that's full strength, I've got her feeding 1/3 strength right now). I was looking at nute ratio calculators and adjusted that up to 17ml/g Bloom and 7ml/g CM plus a pinch of epsom to bring the ratio a bit closer to Lucas and make sure the Mg isn't lacking.

I was never a great grower, but I'm trying to help this gal set up to take care of herself using what supplies and little knowledge we have. I'll be checking out the garden again later this evening.

Fresh Starts · Dec 3, 2013

qupee said:
Yes, just trying to implement some regimen with feeding. My friend was kind of just throwing varying amounts of PBP Grow, CalMag, LK at the plants trying to feed once, water next, and running into issues, so I suggested trying to stick closer to a well-known ratio.

What your friend was doing was trying to implement a watering schedule and that is definitely an important thing to nail down! Also it sounds like you're remedying the watering schedule with a nutrient profile- two different things that are related. Get that watering schedule down and start with something that is not hard for your pupil to copy. Make sure that PPM/EC meter is calibrated correctly and set to the .5 and/or .7 conversion- whichever you are aiming for.

qupee said:
With Botanicare you can get close to the 100-100-200-60 (NPKMg) Lucas ratio by using 15 ml/g PBP Bloom Soil + 5 ml/g CalMag (that's full strength, I've got her feeding 1/3 strength right now). I was looking at nute ratio calculators and adjusted that up to 17ml/g Bloom and 7ml/g CM plus a pinch of epsom to bring the ratio a bit closer to Lucas and make sure the Mg isn't lacking.

I love love love the lucas formula so don't get me a twist here- but there ain't nothing wrong with Botanicare recommendations per back of the bottle. What I hear is that you are showing some one else the ropes because she doesn't have the advanced growing knowledge down like you do- right? Well this profile you are shooting for may be complicating things further than you need to be right now. Keep it simple stoner (K.I.S.S).

Here is the advanced Botanicare recipe for PBP Grow/Bloom. Clicky--->HERE
If you want to minus the PPM of an overall recipe be sure to adjust all ratios of additive's by the same denominator. AKA cut it all back by 1/2, 1/3, etc. That way you are sticking to a tried and true nutrient profile and all you are doing is adjusting the concentration of it. Now all you need is a watering schedule that maintains moisture and nutrient levels in the grow media! PBP Grow/Bloom with Cal/Mg and Liquid Karma is a winner. Seen it done many a time.
You should be shooting for PPM ranges of 350-400 when they are recovering and 450-650 when they are doing good and 700-1000+ when they are raging with plant vigor. That is all @.5 conversion and those numbers should be tested from runoff.

Fresh Starts · Dec 3, 2013

qupee said:
I wasn't very clear in my original post. The soil is old, but not used. Just a couple bags of Sunshine Advanced Mix #4 that had been sitting around for a year or two. That soil is a pretty light mix. If I were to compare it to Fox Farms it's much more like Light Warrior than Ocean Forrest.

I did also top-dress each container with a fat tablespoon of dolomite lime the night I first posted this, wondering if perhaps the old soil wasn't buffering pH well.

Between the added lime, good flush, and different nute mix things have been looking really good

If the sunshine mix was new then I'm thinking that the high PPM readings were coming from the dolomite lime you had top dressed. With a product like Cal/Mag there's really no need for dolomite in the sunshine mix if you are watering it consistently with the product.
I am all over this thread like white on rice. Ok back to work..

qupee · Dec 4, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
If the sunshine mix was new then I'm thinking that the high PPM readings were coming from the dolomite lime you had top dressed. With a product like Cal/Mag there's really no need for dolomite in the sunshine mix if you are watering it consistently with the product.
I am all over this thread like white on rice. Ok back to work..

I appreciate the input; I certainly wouldn't label myself advanced. Had some success but can't run my own show right now so I enjoy helping others experience the growing side. True what they say about growing being more addictive than toking. The high PPM runoff was prior to adding lime.

Feeding was one thing I always had trouble getting a good rhythm with. Using bottle label strength PBP recipes results in pretty high EC. Even at just 6ml/g Bloom, 2-3ml/g CalMag, and 5ml/g LK I get 0.8 ec (400ppm on freshly calibrated meter at 0.5 conversion).

Had a look at the girls last night. Looking alright, but there was a little chlorosis on newer growth. Gave 2 gallons of pH adjusted only RO water. Run off was back up around 2.0 ec and down around 5.5 pH so we left it with just water (last two were 1/3 strength Lucas feeds).

Growth rate seems reasonably fast, but they are getting quite some distance between spots where shoots branch off. Topped all the main shoots for the second time, took a few clones off each. I figure give them a day or two recovery from the topping then flip to 12/12, the roots are likely going to be getting crowded in their pots before too much longer.

After topping:

qupee · Dec 6, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
Here is the advanced Botanicare recipe for PBP Grow/Bloom. Clicky--->HERE

Something odd I notice on Botanicare's site. On the web page with their recipes, the print button downloads a PDF that has slightly different amounts from what's on the web page.

My young padawan thought the girls were looking hungry for N so tonight we gave them the Botanicare veg recipe at 550ppm. 3 gallons worth, had 1 gallon of runoff that measured 6.1 pH and 500ppm.

They need to get flipped soon, but they got topped several days later than they should have waiting for enough growth to take more clones. I think the first batch may have been kept too wet because they ended up rotting.

The little room is working very nice, though. She had a closet under some stairs, not huge but enough. Wired in some outlets tapping off a circuit in the adjoining room and put an air register in for intake, was able to easily tap into the duct return for the exhaust. The lamp is a 600w MH in a cool tube with a reflector wing, and I have an old 1kw hps with maybe 6 months use she might use for the first bloom round. Room temps are 70-72 at night w/ 55-60% RH and 77-80 in the day w/ 45-50% RH. That's using a cool mist humidifier. Damn thing has a bright blue led that shines out of every side on the bottom and right through the water out of the top, need to take it apart and disconnect that.

Fresh Starts · Dec 6, 2013

I think they look great dude. And it looks fairly clean in that room- bravo.

I'm not sure what to say about the high botanicare PPM. Honestly when I asked a rep who came to my hydro store I frequent he said that PBP cannot be read accurately by a PPM pen because of the organic nature of the nutrient.

qupee · Dec 6, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
I think they look great dude. And it looks fairly clean in that room- bravo.

I'm not sure what to say about the high botanicare PPM. Honestly when I asked a rep who came to my hydro store I frequent he said that PBP cannot be read accurately by a PPM pen because of the organic nature of the nutrient.

Thanks, it was a fun little space to setup. At first the bulb was open under a reflector wing, but temps were running more like 84-85 during lights on and even hotter at the canopy, RH was down in the 20's. Found the cool tube on 1000bulbs.com for fairly cheap, under $60 shipped iirc, and environment's been on point since.

I have also read in a few threads that botanicare doesn't measure accurately on ppm meters.

Seamaiden · Dec 6, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
I think they look great dude. And it looks fairly clean in that room- bravo.

I'm not sure what to say about the high botanicare PPM. Honestly when I asked a rep who came to my hydro store I frequent he said that PBP cannot be read accurately by a PPM pen because of the organic nature of the nutrient.

Ah... if only it were 100% organic and certified, then someone like me might be willing to use it. That said, he's right, you cannot accurately measure the electrical conductivity of various organic molecules because of their conductivity, or lack thereof.

qupee · Dec 8, 2013

Seamaiden said:
Ah... if only it were 100% organic and certified, then someone like me might be willing to use it. That said, he's right, you cannot accurately measure the electrical conductivity of various organic molecules because of their conductivity, or lack thereof.

The way I understand measuring Botanicare, borne out by observation, is that while the absolute number isn't accurate, relative measurements are. That is, if I mix a consistent amount of Botanicare I get consistent ppm readings, and if I double or half the amount I get double or half the ppm reading.

But I seem to think that's somewhat true of any nutrient because the meters measure EC, not ppm. I calibrate the meter with a NaCl solution but does a mixture of any nutrient brand have the same conversion factor from EC to ppm as NaCl? I would guess they are all at least a bit different, Botanicare moreso than others.

Anyway, the plants seem to be doing good. Today they got 3 gallons of veg mix at 6.6pH and a bit under 700ppm. Runoff was 6.3pH & 600ppm. They're starting to shoot back up after the last topping so we'll flip them starting tomorrow.

There is one little thing that looks a bit off. The new growth was yellowing, like maybe a zinc deficiency. It doesn't stand out well in the pic. It was starting last week and has improved over the last two feeds. Could be they were just underfed, they were N hungry too and have a much lusher green over the last two feeds as well.

Shot of the space. We'll probably turn the light 90° should be easier to work in the room that way.

ttystikk · Dec 8, 2013

Stick with the dolomite lime in the coco, I've had lots of people comment on their success with this. Lose the cal-mag at that point, because you've already added it. Add .5g/gal epsom salt for mag and sulfur. Go with the rest of your program and increase the ec/ppm with the base nutes to match their recommendations.

Seamaiden · Dec 9, 2013

qupee said:
The way I understand measuring Botanicare, borne out by observation, is that while the absolute number isn't accurate, relative measurements are. That is, if I mix a consistent amount of Botanicare I get consistent ppm readings, and if I double or half the amount I get double or half the ppm reading.

Yes, and this may (should?) be true of anything that's not entirely accurately measured via conductivity. The real problem arises when you can't get a reading at all, IME.

qupee said:
But I seem to think that's somewhat true of any nutrient because the meters measure EC, not ppm. I calibrate the meter with a NaCl solution but does a mixture of any nutrient brand have the same conversion factor from EC to ppm as NaCl? I would guess they are all at least a bit different, Botanicare moreso than others.

It's not the nutrient that has a conversion factor, it's the meter. The relative accuracy occurs when chemical salt-based fertilizers are used. What you discuss is also the reason why I've stopped using ppm/TDS entirely and stuck with EC.

qupee said:
Anyway, the plants seem to be doing good. Today they got 3 gallons of veg mix at 6.6pH and a bit under 700ppm. Runoff was 6.3pH & 600ppm. They're starting to shoot back up after the last topping so we'll flip them starting tomorrow.

And THAT is what is really most important, with all living organisms. How are they looking, how do they feel, are they living or thriving? Sounds like you've got this gal back on track.
:D

Fresh Starts · Dec 9, 2013

If the plants are still yellowing I would try a light Cal/Mag folair spray and watch the results. The most common problem behind yellowing new growth is calcium.

That makes me wonder if you are still using Botanicare's product or depending on the dolomite lime for the calcium.

qupee · Dec 10, 2013

Fresh Starts said:
If the plants are still yellowing I would try a light Cal/Mag folair spray and watch the results. The most common problem behind yellowing new growth is calcium.

That makes me wonder if you are still using Botanicare's product or depending on the dolomite lime for the calcium.

Still using calmag.

Last watering on Sunday was 5ml calmag, 4ml silica blast, 10ml grow, 10ml liquid karma per gallon. Watering before that on Thursday was 3ml calmag, 4ml silica, 8ml grow, 8ml lk.

They've been thirsty. She tells me they are already getting light and should need a watering tomorrow. 12/12 started today too. Conventional wisdom (alternate water/feed) would suggest it might be time to just give plain pH'd water... any opinions on that?

qupee · Dec 10, 2013

Also, I haven't seen them since sunday, but she said the yellow new growth was actually looking worse again. I suggested a foliar but couldn't find any recommendations for dosage of calmag for foliar application, so I erred on the side of caution and suggested 1ml/g + 4ml/g LK. That was applied a few hours ago and word is they don't look any better.

The discoloring is worse at the center of the leaf where it's become very light yellow, the tips are greener. There's no rust like spotting. The affected leaves are canoeing up and twisting a little. Newer growth that's lower and shaded exhibits the same symptoms. Established growth shows no symptoms. I was thinking it looked like a zinc def. but maybe it's more like iron def. the way the yellowing is from the center of the leaves out...

Run off EC is 3.0-6.0

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