Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

mancdank · Dec 21, 2016

Ecompost said:
yes, its already happened bro, I can trap and cultivate bti, but i cant sell you any, someone else has the global rights. Its already happened that nature has been put under the constitution of IP

Give it away for minimum donation :) where there's a will brother

Ecompost · Dec 21, 2016

Protozoa is the reason diversity drops in long brewed teas. if you are brewing for longer than 36hours, something with your method is wrong. Go back and check you have all the details correct. A tea brewed for longer than 36 hours is likely to be a risk. The appearance of Cilliate protozoa are a key indicator things are going wrong with your brew.

Ecompost · Dec 21, 2016

mancdank said:
Give it away for minimum donation :) where there's a will brother

I would get sued mate

mancdank · Dec 21, 2016

Ecompost said:
I would get sued mate

Yea that's probably not a good idea for a guy in your shoes lol

Ecompost · Dec 21, 2016

mancdank said:
Yea that's probably not a good idea for a guy in your shoes lol

yeah I already had clowns feet, last thing i need is a charge for shoeshining

mancdank · Dec 21, 2016

Ecompost said:
yeah I already had clowns feet, last thing i need is a charge for shoeshining

:cry:

mancdank · Dec 21, 2016

Ecompost said:
yeah I already had clowns feet, last thing i need is a charge for shoeshining

U get your parcel I sent ?

Ecompost · Dec 21, 2016

mancdank said:
U get your parcel I sent ?

dunno mate, in spain so not back now till 29th and aint spoke to tel to ask. i will ping him later. Post is a fucking mess, I am still waiting on something we ordered on the 14th November, should have been at tels on the 5th. Your beans show yet?

mancdank · Dec 21, 2016

Ecompost said:
dunno mate, in spain so not back now till 29th and aint spoke to tel to ask. i will ping him later. Post is a fucking mess, I am still waiting on something we ordered on the 14th November, should have been at tels on the 5th. Your beans show yet?

No mate not shown yet royal mail royaly take the piss :(

Ecompost · Dec 22, 2016

For those on this thread uncertain about the viability of shop brought microbes, i thought I might include this shot of a root ball belonging to a Purple Beauty
You can clearly see the gloums are abundant, where you can see a brown, yellow tinge, this is signs of the glomus, visible due to the total poliferation, below this you can see a huge mass of actinobacteria, azotobacter and trichoderma forming a white fuzz at the base of the pot. The root pouch itself is being rapidly converted in to soil by a rampant colony of microbes. These microbes have been grown in a single season and are so virulent, it is unlikely I will get to reuse this root pouch, unless i bury it in to a larger pouch.
Just as its true with all life, not everyones microbes are created equally :-)

Happy biological growing

Ecompost · Dec 22, 2016

added, some data people might like, perhaps give some ideas on why stuff might not be working, methods etc re bio control: meta data sets, Uni of Georgia, Athens
http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1094/PHYTO-96-1168

DrMcSkunkins · Dec 22, 2016

Ecompost said:
For those on this thread uncertain about the viability of shop brought microbes, i thought I might include this shot of a root ball belonging to a Purple Beauty
You can clearly see the gloums are abundant, where you can see a brown, yellow tinge, this is signs of the glomus, visible due to the total poliferation, below this you can see a huge mass of actinobacteria, azotobacter and trichoderma forming a white fuzz at the base of the pot. The root pouch itself is being rapidly converted in to soil by a rampant colony of microbes. These microbes have been grown in a single season and are so virulent, it is unlikely I will get to reuse this root pouch, unless i bury it in to a larger pouch.
Just as its true with all life, not everyones microbes are created equally :)

Happy biological growing

Looks like mushroom mycellium, I bet if you misted it with water made sure and not let it dry completely under 12/12 it would pop out some mushrooms.

epitome · Dec 23, 2016

Ecompost said:
Protozoa is the reason diversity drops in long brewed teas. if you are brewing for longer than 36hours, something with your method is wrong. Go back and check you have all the details correct. A tea brewed for longer than 36 hours is likely to be a risk. The appearance of Cilliate protozoa are a key indicator things are going wrong with your brew.

Do you happen to have an organic hydro DWC thread or does better organix have an organic line, maybe biosynthetic line for hydro?

jumpincactus · Dec 23, 2016

I would like to start with a Happy Holidazzzzzzeeee to all my homies and friends on the other side of the Big Pond. And more specifically I want to call out @Ecompost to review this paper/report and offer his .2 cents from a old acquaintance of mind from U of W in WA State concerning another hot topic in gardening and especially cannabis grows. We have beat the mycho topic to death and its time to bring on another topic.

I guess this could fall under elixirs or myths.

I would like to stress to all my friends and farmers, that when we garden it is paramount to the success of the grow to know what is in your base soil BEFORE throwing a lot of additives or amendments in the mix, as a lot of times the soil unless it is commercially cropped agricultural soil many times it contains everything we need to bring about a good harvest. It is when we dont know or understand the composition of our base/bulk soil that we get into trouble by randomly adding this or that amendment because someone says it increases yields or improves plant health. Often more times than not we end up creating problems for ourselves by operating this way.

So today's topic is " Bone Meal" as an amendment. I will start with Linda's paper and let the input or discussion take it natural course. Again, I would love some input from ecompost, as he is in my opinion one of the more knowledgeable farmers I have had the pleasure of knowing. :)

Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University

The Myth of Beneficial Bone Meal:
"Add a handful of bone meal to planting holes before installing shrubs and trees”

The Myth Of all the soil amendments on the market, bone meal seems to be everyone’s darling. Credited with stimulating root production and improving flowering, thousands of web sites promote the use of bone meal during transplanting and as a regular fertilizer throughout the year. We are assured that bone meal is “one of the indispensable soil amendments all gardeners should have on hand” and that usage of bone meal is “good for reducing transplant shock and promoting extensive and healthy root systems.” Bone meal, as the name suggests, is made from animal bones and is favored by organic gardeners and landscapers as a natural source of calcium and phosphorus. There are nearly 10,000 commercial web sites advertising various formulations of bone meal. How does one decide which is best?

The Reality
Bone meal is primarily calcium and phosphorus, two elements which are usually adequate in nonagricultural soils. The NPK analyses of bone meal preparations vary, but are generally in the range of 0- 12-0 to 3-20-0. Both calcium and phosphorus are required for plant growth, but both (and especially phosphorus) can cause problems if they occur in high concentrations. It is important to understand that neither element, nor any other mineral, will “stimulate” plant growth beyond what is normal for a particular plant. Why does the myth of phosphorus-induced root stimulation persist? The answer probably lies in the effect phosphorus fertilizers have on mycorrhizal relationships. When plant roots are in low phosphorus environments, they exude organic acids from their root tips. These acids allow mycorrhizal fungi to penetrate the roots and form the networks that assist plant roots in taking up water and nutrients. Mycorrhizae are particularly adept at extracting phosphorus from the soil. If phosphorus levels are too high, however, the roots do not exude the organic acids and mycorrhizal connections do not form. This forces the plant to put more resources into root growth to compensate for the lack of mycorrhizae. So in a sense phosphorus will increase root growth – but at an added cost to the plant. The resources expended by the plant in growing additional roots to take the place of mycorrhizae are not available for other plant needs. Shrub and tree species that are mycorrhizae-dependent have a difficult time surviving in soils where mycorrhizae cannot develop. In particular, seedlings and newly transplanted materials are less efficient in absorbing water and minerals from the soil and are more likely to suffer transplant shock than plants where mycorrhizae are present. Adding mycorrhizal spores to soils where phosphorus is too high is ineffective – the spores will remain dormant. Interestingly, bone meal (and other phosphorus sources) is toxic to members of the Protea family. These plants and others adapted to nutrient-poor soils and easily scavenge necessary minerals. This natural ability is compromised when fertilizers are over-applied. What can you do if you have added too much phosphorus over the years? If your soil test indicates that phosphorus levels are high, you may be able to tie up excess phosphorus by adding a mixture of other mineral fertilizers. I’ve not had to do this myself, but various web sites recommend concoctions of ammonium sulfate, magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts), iron sulfate and zinc sulfate. In any case, levels of soil phosphorus will eventually decrease if phosphorus-containing fertilizers are discontinued.

The Bottom Line
• Bone meal supplies high levels of phosphorus and calcium, elements that are rarely limiting in non-agricultural soils.
• Phosphorus, from bone meal or other sources, does not “stimulate” plant growth; it is only a mineral, not a plant growth regulator.
• High levels of phosphorus, from bone meal or other sources, will inhibit growth of mycorrhizal fungi.
• Without mycorrhizal partners, plants must put additional resources into root growth at the expense of other tissues and functions
• Before you add any supplementary nutrients to your landscape, have a complete soil test performed first.

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2016

DrMcSkunkins said:
Looks like mushroom mycellium, I bet if you misted it with water made sure and not let it dry completely under 12/12 it would pop out some mushrooms.

I have no doubt I might see the odd cep, if I could eat it, I would let it roll LOL. I might just see, I asked the boys to keep it watered :-)

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2016

epitome said:
Do you happen to have an organic hydro DWC thread or does better organix have an organic line, maybe biosynthetic line for hydro?

I use the nutes we make for organics in hydro, using more Bio Balance Foliar to maintain a lower overall pH value. this also cleans debris from pipes etc in the event people forget to do the cleaning and then choose to blame a nutrient for a blockage.
You just cant really leave it in the tank for longer than 24 hours before things start to change mate. I have a water only system and I clip to a nutrient tank using a dosetron so I dont tank mix, but pick up the nutrients before irrigation if you get me?
Once you mix 1ml/L of water, or 1g to 2.2 pints, you barely notice it. People that imagine i am trying to pump a smoothie style mish through my pipes are not living in the real world. Mix any nutrients at 1/1000 and see if its more orange squash than strawberry thick shake. :-) Then decide for yourself if it will pass through a pipe. In terms of a gallon, mix 3/5th of a tsp in and see what you think. It wont be a gloppy soup, it will be a colored water visually. Adding organics will do less damage to your system that adding hardwater.
Hope that helps :-)

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2016

jumpincactus said:
I would like to start with a Happy Holidazzzzzzeeee to all my homies and friends on the other side of the Big Pond. And more specifically I want to call out @Ecompost to review this paper/report and offer his .2 cents from a old acquaintance of mind from U of W in WA State concerning another hot topic in gardening and especially cannabis grows. We have beat the mycho topic to death and its time to bring on another topic.

I guess this could fall under elixirs or myths.

I would like to stress to all my friends and farmers, that when we garden it is paramount to the success of the grow to know what is in your base soil BEFORE throwing a lot of additives or amendments in the mix, as a lot of times the soil unless it is commercially cropped agricultural soil many times it contains everything we need to bring about a good harvest. It is when we dont know or understand the composition of our base/bulk soil that we get into trouble by randomly adding this or that amendment because someone says it increases yields or improves plant health. Often more times than not we end up creating problems for ourselves by operating this way.

So today's topic is " Bone Meal" as an amendment. I will start with Linda's paper and let the input or discussion take it natural course. Again, I would love some input from ecompost, as he is in my opinion one of the more knowledgeable farmers I have had the pleasure of knowing. :)

Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University

The Myth of Beneficial Bone Meal:
"Add a handful of bone meal to planting holes before installing shrubs and trees”

The Myth Of all the soil amendments on the market, bone meal seems to be everyone’s darling. Credited with stimulating root production and improving flowering, thousands of web sites promote the use of bone meal during transplanting and as a regular fertilizer throughout the year. We are assured that bone meal is “one of the indispensable soil amendments all gardeners should have on hand” and that usage of bone meal is “good for reducing transplant shock and promoting extensive and healthy root systems.” Bone meal, as the name suggests, is made from animal bones and is favored by organic gardeners and landscapers as a natural source of calcium and phosphorus. There are nearly 10,000 commercial web sites advertising various formulations of bone meal. How does one decide which is best?

The Reality
Bone meal is primarily calcium and phosphorus, two elements which are usually adequate in nonagricultural soils. The NPK analyses of bone meal preparations vary, but are generally in the range of 0- 12-0 to 3-20-0. Both calcium and phosphorus are required for plant growth, but both (and especially phosphorus) can cause problems if they occur in high concentrations. It is important to understand that neither element, nor any other mineral, will “stimulate” plant growth beyond what is normal for a particular plant. Why does the myth of phosphorus-induced root stimulation persist? The answer probably lies in the effect phosphorus fertilizers have on mycorrhizal relationships. When plant roots are in low phosphorus environments, they exude organic acids from their root tips. These acids allow mycorrhizal fungi to penetrate the roots and form the networks that assist plant roots in taking up water and nutrients. Mycorrhizae are particularly adept at extracting phosphorus from the soil. If phosphorus levels are too high, however, the roots do not exude the organic acids and mycorrhizal connections do not form. This forces the plant to put more resources into root growth to compensate for the lack of mycorrhizae. So in a sense phosphorus will increase root growth – but at an added cost to the plant. The resources expended by the plant in growing additional roots to take the place of mycorrhizae are not available for other plant needs. Shrub and tree species that are mycorrhizae-dependent have a difficult time surviving in soils where mycorrhizae cannot develop. In particular, seedlings and newly transplanted materials are less efficient in absorbing water and minerals from the soil and are more likely to suffer transplant shock than plants where mycorrhizae are present. Adding mycorrhizal spores to soils where phosphorus is too high is ineffective – the spores will remain dormant. Interestingly, bone meal (and other phosphorus sources) is toxic to members of the Protea family. These plants and others adapted to nutrient-poor soils and easily scavenge necessary minerals. This natural ability is compromised when fertilizers are over-applied. What can you do if you have added too much phosphorus over the years? If your soil test indicates that phosphorus levels are high, you may be able to tie up excess phosphorus by adding a mixture of other mineral fertilizers. I’ve not had to do this myself, but various web sites recommend concoctions of ammonium sulfate, magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts), iron sulfate and zinc sulfate. In any case, levels of soil phosphorus will eventually decrease if phosphorus-containing fertilizers are discontinued.

The Bottom Line
• Bone meal supplies high levels of phosphorus and calcium, elements that are rarely limiting in non-agricultural soils.
• Phosphorus, from bone meal or other sources, does not “stimulate” plant growth; it is only a mineral, not a plant growth regulator.
• High levels of phosphorus, from bone meal or other sources, will inhibit growth of mycorrhizal fungi.
• Without mycorrhizal partners, plants must put additional resources into root growth at the expense of other tissues and functions
• Before you add any supplementary nutrients to your landscape, have a complete soil test performed first.

totally agree with Linda here and the sentiment to test before do. phosphates are unstable and will look to bind with whatever they can within a pH tolerance. Too much P causes all kinds of headaches in soil systems. It should be added with a much greater understanding first. Most Cananbis needs about 80-100ppms P total, so now how much are you adding?
know that it is unstable, so any not being used is doing something, typically this is moving from water soluble to active and to fixed pools, binding with Calcium, Iron, Aluminum etc etc the more you add the larger the fixed pool the more you need to add to maintain 80-100 at water soluble.

By far a more rounded approach to the additional of P and indeed Ca which is also abundant, would be to use a liquid treatment where and when needed. Rather than adding the calPhos in Bonemeal form, try to get it as a liquid, where you can better control its additions and timings.
If you have clean egg shells, you can char these, brown for Calcium, Grey Black for Phosphates. Add these char shells to an equal amount by volume of Brown Rice Vinegar, where by the mixture will fizz. Once this fizzing has stopped, you will have water soluble Calphos/ Cal or Phos as you blend and char. there are about 170 forms of phosphates as i recall, it is a healthy soil food web that gets access to the all for our plants.

Lots of P, dont bother with mycos, but lose bud value since you are wasting time on your roots. its no wonder everyone vegs for months.... :-)

if you must, bury your phosphates deep in your soil profile. Away from direct contact with transplants and roots. Try spiking feeds of N,P annd S deep in to your soil systems, rather than mixing it across a whole. If you get this right, Mycos will tap the reservoirs leaving your plant free to grow with everything it needs un bonded.

GT21 · Dec 24, 2016

Ecompost said:
I would get sued mate

The law suits would come hard and fast hahaha

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2016

GT21 said:
The law suits would come hard and fast hahaha

innit, they love an IP related law suit, it is the symbol of a failure to innovate when companies and nations start to sue each other. Thats how it is that the police, allegedly there to protect and serve humans, end up protecting and serving a pipeline, which isnt a person.

jumpincactus · Dec 24, 2016

Ecompost said:
I use the nutes we make for organics in hydro, using more Bio Balance Foliar to maintain a lower overall pH value. this also cleans debris from pipes etc in the event people forget to do the cleaning and then choose to blame a nutrient for a blockage.
You just cant really leave it in the tank for longer than 24 hours before things start to change mate. I have a water only system and I clip to a nutrient tank using a dosetron so I dont tank mix, but pick up the nutrients before irrigation if you get me?
Once you mix 1ml/L of water, or 1g to 2.2 pints, you barely notice it. People that imagine i am trying to pump a smoothie style mish through my pipes are not living in the real world. Mix any nutrients at 1/1000 and see if its more orange squash than strawberry thick shake. :) Then decide for yourself if it will pass through a pipe. In terms of a gallon, mix 3/5th of a tsp in and see what you think. It wont be a gloppy soup, it will be a colored water visually. Adding organics will do less damage to your system that adding hardwater.
Hope that helps :)

So if I read you correctly mate, you use clean ph'ed water only in your rez and then with a doser pump add nutes post rez? What an excellent idea. Why the hell didnt I think of that. Well actually I have but the cost of the dosing systems kept me at bay. You know of any affordable systems you could recomend. I understand the term affordable is subjective.

BTW I want to thank you for participating in this thread. You bring a lot to the discussion table. Happy Holidaze mate.

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Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

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DrMcSkunkins

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I like soup

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