Biocanna not exactly ideal for cannabis???

az2000 said:

Photos would help (natural light). It sounds like you're hydro?

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BobaJob said:

Ok so I'm on my 2nd grow and I have now come to the conclusion that biocanna might not be ideal for cannabis and I'd really appreciate it if anybody could help out with this one because it has left me with what I'm 95% sure is a phosphorous deficiency. I had the same problem with my first grow and bought canna mono trace mix to help but I'm not sure it did (saying that, I got 16oz dried and cured off a 600w HPS 1st try :). Anyway, I've looked at what the ideal NPK ratios are for cannabis in flower, and looking at the NPK rations in the biocanna flores and bioboost it seems to be lacking quite a lot in 'P' and quite high in 'K' in respects to what the ideal should be for cannabis, then if you add boost it raises the 'P' quite a bit but then it raises the 'K' quite a bit too so you're left with something like 2.22-2.12-5.58. I read that "A highly effective NPK formula is 1-3-2 for early to mid-bloom, followed by 0-3-3 for late bloom ". As far as I can tell, what I am using isn't ideal for either stage of flower. Also, before I switched to flower, I had what looked like a slight Mg def' but I wasn't sure, so I added the trace nutes and flipped, (it was a lot worse before and I still got 16oz of good bud soooo???) then as soon as I flipped bang, from what I can tell, the typical 'P' def' symptoms, and what looks like a Mg def got worse, which stands to reason because, correct me if I'm wrong, a 'P' def' can hinder the uptake of Mg? Anyway, if I am correct please for the love of all that is green, help me because this is driving me round the twist and no amount of bong hits are helping to calm me lol. Seriously if anything it's making it worse because i'm sitting here like a philosopher trying to work it out.

Thanks for any help, info' and advice given


Peace

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az2000 said:

The ratios you mentioned as ideal sounded like hydro. I grow in soil and 1-3-2 in mid-flower would cause serious N def (unless I was overfeeding to get more N into the plan).

That's why I wondered what your plants look like. Early- to mid-flower is a common time for salt buildup to appear. Too much P can look like P def. It can cause a lockout (along with too much everything else). Maybe it's not a ratio problem? (It's harder to believe that BioCanna has a problem with their franchised ratios than it is to believe it's something about your second grow?).

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BobaJob said:

What do you think?

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az2000 said:

Salt buildup (from overfeeding) happens in soil all the time. I think soil ph problems are a result of overfeeding (the salts accumulating). From what I've seen (myself and others), if you don't overfeed you don't need to ph your nutrient solution. When I first overfed, I did the same thing you're doing. I looked at *everything* other than feeding less (with more volume runoff). I was convinced it was the soil ph. I would raise the ph of the nutrient solution. Ph-up is salts, a nutrient (potassium). It's not labeled as such because it's not sold as a fertilizer. So, I was adding salts, feeding even stronger, by raising the solution's ph. It was a vicious cycle. The more the salts became locked out the less the plant ate -- as I kept pouring them in, add to the buildup. It really spirals out of control quickly.

Maybe that's not your problem. But, I think that's where the greatest possibility lies. Cannabis will grow easily. You don't need lots of bottles. I think the bottles add to the tendency to "kill with kindness" (trying to take care of too much, with too many bottles. The old saying... "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." When you have a bottle for "calmag" deficiency, you start seeing reasons to use it. When you have a bottle to adjust ph.... And another bottle to....).

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BobaJob said:

These girls are exactly 14 days in to flower today

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az2000 said:

I think I see N-def more than the spots that you're seeing as P-def. Tell me exactly how much you mix of each bottle, and each bottle's NPK number. I can tell you the ratio you're creating. (Or, you can do it yourself. I have a spreadsheet (<<link) that does it. Read the README file first, and it will be completely clear how to use it.).

It's common to cut N too soon in flower. So, I wonder if you're (via the franchised program your using) creating a ratio like that. But, I'm more interested in the strength. My spreadsheet will estimate the PPMs. That would be a sanity check.

Do you measure the PPMs of your final nutrient solution? (Do you know the initial water's ppms too?). Both of those would be good to know. Also, if you measure your runoff ppms, that could prove useful (if you do it over time, and know how the ppms track your nutrients, if at all.). I grow in a light soil, and found the runoff ppm closely tracks the strength of what I feed, and the soil ph as the too-strong feedings accumulate in the soil. It's a perfect measurement for me. But, it sounds like it's hit and miss whether it is for other people. It may have to do with the soil. But, it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on your runoff ppms and see if you can make use of it.

For me, 2400-2500ppm runoff is where lockout occurs. In flower, I have my nutrient strength (and runoff volume) dialed in for 1600-1800ppm runoff. Before I found that balance, things would start spinning out at 2000-2200. That was the tipping point where, if I didn't feed half-strength and 100% runoff, it would go higher (and lockout). In veg, I don't pay attention to them. They're 500, 900, 1200. I don't know. It's not until early flower that things become volatile and it easily spikes. (It seems touchier than in veg.). I hardly look at my runoff ppms anymore because I know the amount I feed (and the runoff volume of 10-20% keeps it in check.).

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BobaJob said:

If you would do that for me I'd be eternally greatful. And yes I am using their program - I have followed it to the number.

the chart/program: http://www.canna-uk.com/biocanna_growguide

NPKs:

Vega: 3.5-1.0-5.5
Flore: 2.2-2.0-5.5
Boost: 0,02-0,12-0,08

I am using normal feeding regime and followed that chart to the number

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BobaJob said:

I get a good run off that gets soaked up after

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az2000 said:

Here's a how-to to manually calculate the resulting NPK when mixing bottles. (<<link. Archived <<link). When you have that number, then you can reduce it to a 1-based ratio.

Ultimately, that would be like buying a product with that label (and implied ratio in the label's strength). But, I'm still puzzled how %-w & %-v relate to each other when talking about ratios. You could end up with a different ratio (working from labels that reflect "percent of volume") than I would working with labels that reflect %-weight.

Whenever I see "oh, 3-1-2 is an awesome ratio for veg," I think they're talking about %-w. In fact, I never think about it at all. If I were going to do that, I would use a product like 24-8-16 (MiracleGro All-Purpose, for example). But, if you had the same product, I don't know what it's label would say. It sounds like if you reduced that label to a 1-based ratio, it would be different my 3-1-2 ratio I get from my %-weight label.).

This topic has always been perplexing to me. (If I lived somewhere that they obfuscate labels that way, I'd be pissed off. Or, maybe I'd understand it better, and it would make sense.).

Another confusing topic is how hydro growers think in terms of ppms. They'll talk about 300-100-200 NPK. That relates to %-weight pretty well because 1g in 1L creates 1000ppm, by definition. (But, P & K are typically supplied as K2O and P2O5 (I forget, something like that). If's not entirely clear if they're talking elemental P & K, which you have to convert to some weight of those compounds.

Oh well... I'm probably talking about stuff that doesn't matter to you.

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az2000 said:

That doesn't sound good. I think runoff serves two purposes. It helps you know the soil is fully watered (less chance for dry spots). And it washes away excess salts each feeding. The more runoff, the more protected you are (which is important if you're feeding heavy). If you leave the runoff in the saucer. That can drown roots, keep the soil too wet too long, and (worse, IMO) reabsorb the salts as if no runoff occurred.

So, you're not using any Vega now? You're pretty much using Flores & Boost equal parts. So, just eyeballing your labels: ratio 1.05-1-2.63.

That sounds like a nice ratio. For your stage of growth, I would be about 1-1.2-1.8. But, I've grown ratio 1-1-1 all the way through. I don't think the between my ideal ratio and what you're creating is substantial enough to cause a problem (like N def, which I thinking I see.).

Also, again, I don't know how your %-v relates to ratios (as I'm describing). I don't think it has anything to do with the metric system. Ultimately, N weighs different than P. How do you get to the amount of P (by weight) from its percentage of volume? (Something seems different because the labels are different are different. I've struggled to understand this topic for years. I sort of get so far with it. If N is 10% of the volume of a product, then you take 10% of the weight. But, then you have work out all the other minerals' volumes, and how much of the weight that is. I get lost there, how to get to how they relate to each other by weight. Each mineral weighs differently.).

Can you take the photos under natural light, larger? You've said you're using HPS. I've seen photos that looked N def that, when taken under natural light looked very green. So... with your ratio (if I understand your products, what the labels mean), I wouldn't expect N def.

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