You are looking for bud sites before flip and overall size at the end. This takes some experience but over time you will see it. Once the plant shifts to flower and depending on strain they can stretch a good amount, esp if light is not adequate. Some strains stay five leaf for the most part....Some plants get 13-15 sets per leaf.... How big of an area do you have to flower in? How much yield are you looking for?

PhoenixFlower said:

This is my first grow, please pardon my ignorance.

I'm assuming that ALL cannabis plants develop leaves at the same rate. First it's two leaves, the 'cotyledons' then from there, two leaves sprout on each side. Then, from where the one leaf sprouted, two more sprout on each side. And this goes on and on, with two additional leaves sprouting as the plant matures, five fan leaves per leaf, then seven. I've witnessed my plant sprout as many as nine fan leaves. I'm assuming it can go all the way up to eleven fan leaves (or more).

Does this development of additional fan leaves correlate to my overall yield at the end? What I mean by this is say I flip to flower while only having five fan leaves per bud site, will my overall bud size be smaller than say, if I were to allow that bud site to develop nine or more blades per leaf? I'm trying to get back as much bud as possible. Logically this makes sense, but because I've never done this before, I do not know.

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Leaflets per leaf don't matter.

Homesteader said:

You are looking for bud sites before flip and overall size at the end. This takes some experience but over time you will see it. Once the plant shifts to flower and depending on strain they can stretch a good amount, esp if light is not adequate. if Some strains stay five leaf for the most part....Some plants get 13-15 .... How big of an area do you have to flower in? How much yield are you looking for?

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I'm working in roughly a 2x4ft area (my closet). I'm trying to MAXIMIZE my return, I want as much as I can get back as possible.

I want the fattest buds, I don't want to run out for a long while. Just trying to get back as much as possible.

So you will probably want to maximize your plane and flatten out the plant so is hit uniformly with light. Personally I only grow for the top buds. ANything below is rabbit food for the most part. Lots of people use scrog to achieve this though Probably lots of examples here if you want to look.

mysticepipedon said:

Leaflets per leaf don't matter.

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Are you absolutely sure? What you're saying is my bud size will be the same if I flipped to flower after developing three leaflets as it would if I waited until that same plant would have developed five or more elaflets? IS there ANY benefit to waiting until the plant gros more leafs, any at all? Perhaps a thicker stalk that can withhold all the weight of the bud during flower?

Homesteader said:

So you will probably want to maximize your plane and flatten out the plant so is hit uniformly with light. Personally I only grow for the top buds. ANything below is rabbit food for the most part. Lots of people use scrog to achieve this though Probably lots of examples here if you want to look.

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I've done this, I've got a mostly populated canopy of bud sites, I was just waiting for a couple of them to develop more leaf blades before making the official 12 hour switch. I cut off most of the undergrowth that wasn't getting any light.

If you guys say the leaf blade count doesn't matter, I guess I'll switch tonight :) Wish me luck.

Bud sites are what is important. Im not so sure I can answer your question though or maybe I didn't understand it correctly. The longer the veg the bigger the plant generally. Bigger plant bigger roots bigger yield.

Homesteader said:

Bud sites are what is important. Im not so sure I can answer your question though or maybe I didn't understand it correctly. The longer the veg the bigger the plant generally. Bigger plant bigger roots bigger yield.

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I'll try and explain a little bit better (sorry for the confusion).

Most of my 'bud sites' have leaves consisting of seven fan blades, some of these sites only have leaves consisting of five fan blades. I want the fattest buds, I'm assuming that the overall circumference of my buds will be bigger on the bud sites that I allow to develop 7-9 fan blades as opposed to the ones only consisting of 5 fan blades. This might be a negligible difference, say, half an inch,or say in diameter of bud. I would still like to push the limits to get back as much bud as humanly possible.

I will have many bud sites, yes. But I want big, thick, fat buds, if that makes sense. I don't want to have wasted as much time as I have in veg only to come out with a yield that could have been a lot more had I waited for these sites to develop those 2-4 extra fan blades.

Genetics and nutrition are bigger factors imo but Ill let someone else chime in. Once you flip to flower, you are most likely to have a growth explosion. If that plant you have in your pictures is the one, I would flip as long as they have a healthy amount of food.

The only thing I could see making a difference is leaf surface area, which is not necessarily dictated by number of leaflets. That's also with the assumption that those leaves are receiving equal amounts of light - a leaf with n surface area receiving less sunlight than a leaf with a smaller surface area may result in about the same photosynthetic production.

Basically... I don't think it's something to get hung up on.

Number of blades on a leaf doesn't mean much. Bud sites will grow buds, the longer you veg, the more branches will sprout. The more leaves you have, the more light the plant can absorb. The plant will stretch after flip as well. 2x4 isn't a huge space so I wouldn't push it, do you have a pic of the plant in question? Your end yield will depend mostly on genetics and how well you care for the plant, give it the nutrients it needs and keep the environment as good as you can get it. Do you have environmental controls? What's your plan for air exchange and such in your closet? Humidity will be a factor.

TSD said:

Number of blades on a leaf doesn't mean much. Bud sites will grow buds, the longer you veg, the more branches will sprout. The more leaves you have, the more light the plant can absorb. The plant will stretch after flip as well. 2x4 isn't a huge space so I wouldn't push it, do you have a pic of the plant in question? Your end yield will depend mostly on genetics and how well you care for the plant, give it the nutrients it needs and keep the environment as good as you can get it. Do you have environmental controls? What's your plan for air exchange and such in your closet? Humidity will be a factor.

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This was the most recent photo taken (less than 12 hours ago).


I have a dehumidifier I intend to put into service 24/7 once the buds start pushing through.

As for ventilation, it's a walk in closet so I have the sliding door partially ajar at most times during the day.

PhoenixFlower said:

I'm working in roughly a 2x4ft area (my closet). I'm trying to MAXIMIZE my return, I want as much as I can get back as possible.

I want the fattest buds, I don't want to run out for a long while. Just trying to get back as much as possible.

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I’m running in my closet, which is a 2’x6’.
I think the light you choose will be crucial to your end result.
For my rectangular area I went with a rectangular shaped light, an HLG 320xl r-spec LED. It covers my 2x6 perfectly and would really “shine” in a 2x4.
I would grow 2 plants in a 2x4…..3 plants might work depending on how your train them. I have 3 in my space (3 different strains) and could not fit another.
The pics are my current run and the buds are hard as rocks and still have some swelling to do before they’re ripe.
I’m sure there are plenty of other great lights, I know Timber makes a helluva light, but make sure you choose one that emits the best footprint for your specific space.
Good luck.

Bullmark69 said:

I’m running in my closet, which is a 2’x6’.
I think the light you choose will be crucial to your end result.
For my rectangular area I went with a rectangular shaped light, an HLG 320xl r-spec LED. It covers my 2x6 perfectly and would really “shine” in a 2x4.
I would grow 2 plants in a 2x4…..3 plants might work depending on how your train them. I have 3 in my space (3 different strains) and could not fit another.
The pics are my current run and the buds are hard as rocks and still have some swelling to do before they’re ripe.
I’m sure View attachment 1281040View attachment 1281041View attachment 1281042there are plenty of other great lights, I know Timber makes a helluva light, but make sure you choose one that emits the best footprint for your specific space.
Good luck.

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I'm using a Mars Hydro TSL2000, it's a rectangular growlight similar to yours (although the quality not up to par with yours). It was designed for a grow of 2x4.

My closet area isn't exactly 2x4, it's about 2 1/2 x 4 feet, but I have the light centred right in the middle.

Your canopy is already full. Flip them

N1ghtL1ght said:

Your canopy is already full. Flip them

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Pulling them off of the 18-6 schedule and putting them on the 12-12 tonight.

Phoenix Flower, what Homesteader said, I agree with,

Homesteader said:

Bigger plant bigger roots bigger yield.

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I would like to add to what he said.
While the number of fingers on a leaf do not have any direct effect on the bud size, it is a good indicator of the overall general health of a plant just as the overall size of the leaves indicate the same. The number of fingers on a leaf is determined by multipal factors that include genetics, the age and stage of growth, and health.
Genetics: just as the genetics of a plant determine how wide (Indica) or narrow (Sativa) the leaf fingers will be, the same is true for the overall leaf size and number of fingers. As you gain experiance with differant varieties, you will see these genetic differances. Some plants rarely produce leaves with more than 5 fingers, while others produce 9-11 fingers regularly.
Age and stage: You are correct with your observation of the plant through the seedling stage. It begins with the 2 rounded cotyledon leaves followed by the first true leaves. Normally, those first true leaves are a single finger followed by a pair of 3 finger leaves and then 5 finger, as you saw, but not always. I have had seedlings produce a first set of true leaves with 3 fingers, and wait until you have a seed sprout that has 3 or 4 cotyledon leaves and true leaves, but that's another subjest. In the veg stage your plant will generally reach it's maximum leaf size and number of fingers around the 6-10th set without topping or LST. That size and number can/is also goverened by topping and other LST (low stress training) like tying down the growing tips to allow the branches to grow into an even canopy. After you flip the lights and as the plant goes into full flower production, the large leaves began to get smaller untill at the tips of the flowers, the leaves are back to single, very short leaves known as follicle leaves, that will be covered in beautiful trichomes.
Health: the health of you plant will also determine the size and number of fingers each leaf has, especially during the veg stage. The bigger the leaf at flip. IN GENERAL, the healthier the plant and the bigger the flowers. You may have noticed that after topping, the first set of leaves from the new growth is smaller and has fewer fingers than the old sun leaf at that growth node. NOTE, you never will hear of an experianced grower topping a plant after flipping the lights to 12/12 and the reason is because the plant can't fully recover to produce as much, or as large a flower, as it could have if it had not been topped in/at the flip to flower. IT WILL NEED TIME TO RECOVER and yes, the size and number of fingers on a leaf can be a good indicator of when you plant has recovered and is ready for you to flip it into bloom. (personally, I will not top within the last 7-8 days of veg)

I would also like to commend you on your forthought and planning for heavy colas and if the branches will support them. In general, the same genetic factors come into play. Some varieties will support their buds just fine while other varieties need serious support. IN GENERAL again, the shorter broad leaf (Indica) varieties have smaller and more dense buds with thick stems to support them. Tall and thinner fingered plants like Sativa's will almost certainly need support, so you can plan accordingly. And as for your concern over putting a plant into flower when it is only in it's early veg stage, there is a style of growing that does exactly that. It's callse a Sea of Green (SOG). It is the ultimately fastest way to get a harvest, but requires covering your grow space with dozens of tiny plants and because of state plant counts, not exactly legal as far as I know in any state, so I'll leave it at that. But to answer your question, yes, those very young and small plants support their single bud and each other in a SOG very nicely.
Hope that helps and keep growing! N2

PhoenixFlower said:

I'm working in roughly a 2x4ft area (my closet). I'm trying to MAXIMIZE my return, I want as much as I can get back as possible.

I want the fattest buds, I don't want to run out for a long while. Just trying to get back as much as possible.

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I think you're going about this with the wrong idea. Yield will increase with experience & the genetics of the plants you're growing. Just keep it healthy with good watering and feed schedules.

Closets can be an issue because they're not designed to be 100% dark inside, light leaks will kill your yield unless you count seed weight. If its not 100% black inside the closet you are likely to hermi and end up with seeded weed.

Once you flip they're going to stretch and you'll quickly run out of room unless you take that into consideration, Too crowded leads to mould with limited air flow around your plant.

Good luck lots of help here if needed.

PipeCarver said:

I think you're going about this with the wrong idea. Yield will increase with experience & the genetics of the plants you're growing. Just keep it healthy with good watering and feed schedules.

Closets can be an issue because they're not designed to be 100% dark inside, light leaks will kill your yield unless you count seed weight. If its not 100% black inside the closet you are likely to hermi and end up with seeded weed.

Once you flip they're going to stretch and you'll quickly run out of room unless you take that into consideration, Too crowded leads to mould with limited air flow around your plant.

Good luck lots of help here if needed.

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I've factored that into my plans. I've got one window in my bedroom, it's been covered up with tin foil and cardboard, and then on top of that, I've got black out blinds over the window as well.

Sun sets just before 8pm here and I plan to have them on a schedule of lights on at 8am and lights off at 8pm. I don't think any light will get through during their dark time. I don't turn on my room light either, only when the growlight is on. I've got a lava lamp that stays on during the dark though, I don't think it's bright enough to disrupt my plants slumber. I went and checked inside my closet the other day, couldn't see my hand when I put it in front of me. Do you think I'll be fine?

When you say 'stretch,' do you mean vertically or horizontally?

PhoenixFlower said:

I've factored that into my plans. I've got one window in my bedroom, it's been covered up with tin foil and cardboard, and then on top of that, I've got black out blinds over the window as well.

Sun sets just before 8pm here and I plan to have them on a schedule of lights on at 8am and lights off at 8pm. I don't think any light will get through during their dark time. I don't turn on my room light either, only when the growlight is on. I've got a lava lamp that stays on during the dark though, I don't think it's bright enough to disrupt my plants slumber. I went and checked inside my closet the other day, couldn't see my hand when I put it in front of me. Do you think I'll be fine?

When you say 'stretch,' do you mean vertically or horizontally?

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Vertically, some will stretch 2 ft within 2 weeks of going 12/12.....I'll bend them over if I see them getting too close to the light.