1st grow, did I screw up these seedlings?

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

Hi everyone.

- day 5 of my first grow after seeds germinated
- using a grow tent indoors with Lumatek LED 465W full spectrum lights (running currently at 25% full power, 120W)
- growing photoperiodic White Widow seeds
- the 5 seedlings on the left (first picture) are from a different mother than the 3 seedlings on the right (second picture).
- 3 seedlings on the right (second picture) came from darker and slightly bigger seeds than the ones on the left (first picture).

They seem to be growing very tall in just these 5 initial days. Especially the 3 seedlings on the right (second picture).
I've had to make small wire stands to help keep them straight.

I'm using lightly fertilized soil mix from Canna in these small cups.
I just used that because that's what I'll be using for the growing/blooming stages, so it was readily available.

Now I'm thinking if that lightly fertilised mix isn't responsible for this supercharged tall growth?

Also, read somewhere that seedlings do tend to get tall if they're not getting enough light.
So I've put the lights a bit closer (from 100cm/3ft down to 50cm/1.5ft), and measured the PAR ppfd with a meter, and it came out at around 200 µmol/cm2/s, pretty much in line with what's expected at this stage (according to what I read around).

The 5 ones on the left (first picture) seem to be growing at a slower pace than the 3 ones on the right (second picture).

Do these seem healthy?
Am I just being paranoid?
Should I try my luck?
Or should I start over with new seeds and new (non fertilised) soil, even if just lightly?

Thanks!

Zill · Oct 5, 2022

Toscano,

My only comment - the seedlings appear a little leggy, long stems. How is the light intensity in your space?

Zill.

mysticepipedon · Oct 5, 2022

Seedlings stretch like that when they aren't getting enough light.

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

Zill said:
Toscano,

My only comment - the seedlings appear a little leggy, long stems.

My point exactly.

Zill said:
How is the light intensity in your space?

On the first 3 days it was roughly 100cm/3ft from the plants, on the last 2 days (it's day 5 today) I've brought the lights closer down to 50cm/1ft because I read seedlings to tend to elongate their stems if they feel they're not getting enough light.

As for the intensity itself, I measured the PAR/PPFD yesterday (full led spectrum system) and it came around an average of 200 µm/cm2/s.
So roughly around the mid point for the recommended interval for seedlings (from 100 to 300 µm/cm2/s, according to what I read around).
On the Lumatek system itself, it is set for 25% full power (so, around 120W).

So actually... since it's just day 5, it comes down a simple question: should I discard and start over? Or keep growing these and hope things run smoothly?

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

mysticepipedon said:
Seedlings stretch like that when they aren't getting enough light.

Yeah, read about that, brought the lights a bit down, and though the plants are still growing taller they seem to have slowed down the growth a bit.

My question, since this is just day 5, is: should I keep growing these?

Or better to start over with new seeds and bring the lights closer from the beginning?

Thanks.,

freezeland2 · Oct 5, 2022

Toscano said:
Yeah, read about that, brought the lights a bit down, and though the plants are still growing taller they seem to have slowed down the growth a bit.

My question, since this is just day 5, is: should I keep growing these?

Or better to start over with new seeds and bring the lights closer from the beginning?

Thanks.,

They’ll be fine if you nurse them along like you are.

freezeland2 · Oct 5, 2022

When you transplant plant them deep. They’ll grow roots out those lanky stems.

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

freezeland2 said:
When you transplant plant them deep. They’ll grow roots out those lanky stems.

That's good to know.
I'll nurse them for a few more days, maybe even bring the lights down further a bit, and see what happens.

Thanks!

Zill · Oct 5, 2022

Freezeland’s got it. Keep,the leggy ones and germinate other seeds.

Is that true freezeland? Like tomatoes, if I bury part of the main stem along with root balls the stems will spout roots. Good to know.

Zill.

mysticepipedon · Oct 5, 2022

Toscano said:
Yeah, read about that, brought the lights a bit down, and though the plants are still growing taller they seem to have slowed down the growth a bit.

My question, since this is just day 5, is: should I keep growing these?

Or better to start over with new seeds and bring the lights closer from the beginning?

Thanks.,

Never give up on a seedling until it croaks or it's growing point is dead.

What will happen if the seedling doesn't start getting enough light is that it will over-elongate and flop over. At that point it's over. But if you haven't reached that point, the situation can still be fixed.

Plants grow out of most seedling issues -- elongated stems, weird growth, etc. There is rarely a reason to kill off a seedling.

shortcake · Oct 5, 2022

Toscano said:
Hi everyone.

- day 5 of my first grow after seeds germinated
- using a grow tent indoors with Lumatek LED 465W full spectrum lights (running currently at 25% full power, 120W)
- growing photoperiodic White Widow seeds
- the 5 seedlings on the left (first picture) are from a different mother than the 3 seedlings on the right (second picture).
- 3 seedlings on the right (second picture) came from darker and slightly bigger seeds than the ones on the left (first picture).

They seem to be growing very tall in just these 5 initial days. Especially the 3 seedlings on the right (second picture).
I've had to make small wire stands to help keep them straight.

I'm using lightly fertilized soil mix from Canna in these small cups.
I just used that because that's what I'll be using for the growing/blooming stages, so it was readily available.

Now I'm thinking if that lightly fertilised mix isn't responsible for this supercharged tall growth?

Also, read somewhere that seedlings do tend to get tall if they're not getting enough light.
So I've put the lights a bit closer (from 100cm/3ft down to 50cm/1.5ft), and measured the PAR ppfd with a meter, and it came out at around 200 µmol/cm2/s, pretty much in line with what's expected at this stage (according to what I read around).

The 5 ones on the left (first picture) seem to be growing at a slower pace than the 3 ones on the right (second picture).

Do these seem healthy?
Am I just being paranoid?
Should I try my luck?
Or should I start over with new seeds and new (non fertilised) soil, even if just lightly?

Thanks!

View attachment 1289153

View attachment 1289154

I agree with the others. They seem a little stretchy. Trying to reach the light. I had this happen a fee times and I was able to fix a little by replanting it. Good luck

Buzzy12 · Oct 5, 2022

You're fine bud, no reason to worry. You've made the proper adjustments and those seedlings will start looking better in a couple of days. They were definitely stretching for the light. I agree that 100-300 ppfd is the optimal range for seedlings. The only reason to lower that light more would be to use less electricity, but you're already down to 25%. And never forget that you are growing living plants. They are not an appliance that you can flip a switch on/off. It takes time for them to adjust to changes in their environment. Have fun with your first grow and never stop learning! Excellent strain selection by the way, White Widow is a great plant to grow.

freezeland2 · Oct 5, 2022

Zill said:
Freezeland’s got it. Keep,the leggy ones and germinate other seeds.

Is that true freezeland? Like tomatoes, if I bury part of the main stem along with root balls the stems will spout roots. Good to know.

Zill.

Yep

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

I think I learned something.

Decided to make new measurements for the PPFD's, and got to the conclusion that the "transparent" plastic cover from my propagator was reflecting a good amount of radiation back.
Talking about 30% approximately!

In other words, measured on top of the plastic cover (no obstacle between meter and lights), and the value was around 190 µm/m2/s.
However, I decided to measure from the inside of the propagator, and got a measly 130 µm/m2/s.

Effectively, this propagator cover reflects back more than 30% of (useful plant) light. What a waste!

Brought the lights down a bit more until I got a reading of 200 ppfd *inside* the propagator, and that was that.

We'll see how the next few days go.

Thanks everyone! It's a pleasure to be learning this stuff.

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

Buzzy12 said:
You're fine bud, no reason to worry. You've made the proper adjustments and those seedlings will start looking better in a couple of days. They were definitely stretching for the light. I agree that 100-300 ppfd is the optimal range for seedlings. The only reason to lower that light more would be to use less electricity, but you're already down to 25%. And never forget that you are growing living plants. They are not an appliance that you can flip a switch on/off. It takes time for them to adjust to changes in their environment. Have fun with your first grow and never stop learning! Excellent strain selection by the way, White Widow is a great plant to grow.

Regarding White Widow, I do remember smoking it (and enjoying it tremendously!) in the late 1990's.
When I read that was still around I knew that's the one I had to try for my first grow.
It's tried and tested and a lot of people have grown it, so if it's still around, there must something to it.
Thanks!

beluga · Oct 5, 2022

Since this is your first go... take time to read cues from the plant and make observations of what it's communicating.

Numbers are a good point of reference, but nothing is going to tell you what's going wrong more than the plant itself. PPFD and VPD are relatively new measurements we're using to guide us into optimization, and most of those optimizing effectively have already gone through learning about the plant without the guidance of these measurements. The same can be said for PPM, EC, etc... almost any value - people constantly get themselves into trouble because they follow numbers without listening to the plant.
Now, that's not to say throw it out the window.. certainly keep track of those numbers. But there's no greater value than being able to intuitively (via communication with the plant) identify healthy and unhealthy signals. And those don't always align with optimal numbers.

ComfortablyNumb · Oct 5, 2022

Oh my goodness. Relax. They are fine. Your light should be around 20 inches from the top of the plants. Use the dimmer to adjust light intensity.
They grow tall because they are reaching for the sun, just as they are supposed to. Put a fan in there aimed at the walls and set it so the leaves are just barely moving from the breeze. That will cause them to thicken up and get stronger.
The fast growth is normal and should be encouraged unless you have a 2 foot tall growing space. If that's the case, then you need to start bending them over for mainlining.

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

ComfortablyNumb said:
Oh my goodness. Relax. They are fine. Your light should be around 20 inches from the top of the plants. Use the dimmer to adjust light intensity.
They grow tall because they are reaching for the sun, just as they are supposed to. Put a fan in there aimed at the walls and set it so the leaves are just barely moving from the breeze. That will cause them to thicken up and get stronger.
The fast growth is normal and should be encouraged unless you have a 2 foot tall growing space. If that's the case, then you need to start bending them over for mainlining.

Thanks.
When you mention the fans aimed at the walls (which makes total sense, by the way), I'm guessing you mean "without the plastic propagator cover on"?

Like I said a couple of messages back, I've made measurements both outside and inside the propagator, and found the plastic cover reflects back around 30% of the "good" (PAR) plant light.
So I've lowered the lights a bit until I got a good PAR inside the propagator.

If I take the plastic cover off, even putting four water bowls spread around inside the tent I can hardly make the RH go beyond 45-47%, which seems a tad low. Hence keeping the cover on.

So I'm a bit stumped at the moment... if I do what you suggest, take the plastic cover off, aim fans at the walls and keep a small breeze going, then the RH is going down...
...

beluga · Oct 5, 2022

You'll have to get that RH up at some point.
I would start addressing that before the plants outgrow their dome... which they're gunning for already.
IME, critical RH swings are usually more detrimental to a plant than suboptimal seedling RH. From dome to tent, you're looking at halving your RH ... that's a big swing.

Toscano · Oct 5, 2022

beluga said:
Since this is your first go... take time to read cues from the plant and make observations of what it's communicating.

Numbers are a good point of reference, but nothing is going to tell you what's going wrong more than the plant itself. PPFD and VPD are relatively new measurements we're using to guide us into optimization, and most of those optimizing effectively have already gone through learning about the plant without the guidance of these measurements. The same can be said for PPM, EC, etc... almost any value - people constantly get themselves into trouble because they follow numbers without listening to the plant.
Now, that's not to say throw it out the window.. certainly keep track of those numbers. But there's no greater value than being able to intuitively (via communication with the plant) identify healthy and unhealthy signals. And those don't always align with optimal numbers.

I agree.
As this is my first grow, numbers are all I have at the moment.
But since I'm growing at home, I'll be able to give them daily attention, so hopefully that experience will come with time.
Thanks!

1st grow, did I screw up these seedlings?

1st grow, did I screw up these seedlings?

Toscano

Zill

mysticepipedon

Toscano

Toscano

freezeland2

freezeland2

Toscano

Zill

mysticepipedon

shortcake

Buzzy12

freezeland2

Toscano

Toscano

beluga

ComfortablyNumb

Toscano

beluga

Toscano

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