Am At A Loss..

Mongo006 · Feb 1, 2017

hi there, am growing in canna coco, using ro water.
Am using botanicare cal mag and flora nova grow. Plants have been vegging for two months. Have looked pretty good until now.
I feed ph 5.8 - 6.1 , 900 ppm x 500 scale. 10 percent run off. About every two days. Plants are under 1000w ushio metal halides with adjust a wing reflectors. Sealed room, 800 ppm Co2.
What is going on with my leaves :(
Only a couple are doing the green twisted thing, but they all are doing the leaf burning. Some more so than others.

Seamaiden · Feb 1, 2017

I see a few things going on there. I see what appears to be either variegation or mosaic virus. I see the twisting (that is directly related to pH, my answer is to try ranging it up and down, see which the plant prefers. I just did it last Christmas with a gifted poinsettia, so now I *know* the twist is pH). And then I see those necrotic areas.

Finally... the 'cal-mag', a product I have grown to detest. None are at appropriate ratios IMO/E. The vast majority give you a ratio of Ca:Mg at 2:1-3:1, and especially in coir this is quite deficient in Ca. I prefer 4:1 as a base, 6:1 is even better. I find myself wondering if more Ca would be helpful here, despite the fact that the burning you're showing is not classically associated with -Ca IME. Additional Ca may help two issues, the burned/necrotic areas, and the variegation/mosaic. I haven't had much experience with that myself, but I've read many growers who will increase the "cal-mag" and see the variegation go away. Insufficient Ca is an issue with damn near all other mineral nutrients as well, and since coir locks onto it, I see additional Ca in your regime as a good thing all the way around.

There are a few ways to get more Ca into the plant. When growing in coir my preferred is BioLink Organic 6% Ca. Otherwise gypsum (CaSO4) is a good alternative, it can be top-dressed. Otherwise, find a Ca-only product that you like, and get that ratio as close to 4:1 as you can.

I would also still try ranging pH, even though you're keeping generally within the parameters I've found to be best (my range is 5.8-6.2, generally 6.0 is what almost all strains I've run in coir prefer). I'd let it go as low as 5.6 and expect to see twisting get worse, but frankly I'll be mildly surprised if they like it higher than 6.2.

One last thing--double check your pH meter. If you're using colorimetric drops, double check those. If you're using a meter, make sure it's calibrated and reading properly. If using strips, again, double check your readings against something else.

indicabush · Feb 1, 2017

@Seamaiden ...As usual great diagnosis; like your new pic (new to me ).

Mongo006 · Feb 1, 2017

Thanks for the advice. I will double check the ph meter. I use Blue lab guardians, and calibrate them regularly but I have also seen them say they were 'calibrated' and be way off.
The reason I use RO water is before I had sodium in my well and it was doing similar things to that leaf tip burn so I was hoping that the ro would get rid of it, but it is back again somehow. I also grow at another place with well water too, but the well water is fine as my plants do awesome there.

FooDoo · Feb 1, 2017

Def mosiac virus.

For calcium order some calcium carbonate off eBay for dirt cheap. The food grade stuff.

Take ro water, ph it down to 4.0. Add .6 grams calcium to the water. Shake. Then add that to your nutrient mix or ph it up to 6.2-7.0 and folair feed it.

FooDoo · Feb 1, 2017

also you wrote you feed every two days?

I have 3 month old moms in tiny plastic solo cups under one or two t5s to keep them from Growing that I feed twice a day in coco and you're feeding these giant girls only once every two days?

If that's accurate then that's why you have deficiencies.

Coco needs to be fed as often as you possibly can without flooding them.

I'd rather give 50 shot glasses worth of nutrient thorough out one day in coco then just one big watering with 10% run off.

Never let your coco dry out. It should always always always have moisture. I don't even grow coco and I've seen this said a million times by good growers

1320 · Feb 1, 2017

Mongo006 said:
hi there, am growing in canna coco, using ro water.
Am using botanicare cal mag and flora nova grow. Plants have been vegging for two months. Have looked pretty good until now.
I feed ph 5.8 - 6.1 , 900 ppm x 500 scale. 10 percent run off. About every two days. Plants are under 1000w ushio metal halides with adjust a wing reflectors. Sealed room, 800 ppm Co2.
What is going on with my leaves :(
Only a couple are doing the green twisted thing, but they all are doing the leaf burning. Some more so than others.

Check out this picture.
At 5.8-6.1 your plant is only receiving some of the stuff it needs. I would bump the pH to 6.4-6.5 also add some "iron & zinc" to your water and you'll see the difference. I had this same problem about a month ago

stonestacker · Feb 2, 2017

1320 said:
Check out this picture.
At 5.8-6.1 your plant is only receiving some of the stuff it needs. I would bump the pH to 6.4-6.5 also add some "iron & zinc" to your water and you'll see the difference. I had this same problem about a month ago

That chart is for soil (dirt). You need to use the one for hydro for coco!

stonestacker · Feb 2, 2017

Try this.
Here are a couple I had around for reference..

Tex

From this thread. https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/ph-charts-for-soil-and-hydro.6990/

Good luck and listen to See she knows her stuff.

Seamaiden · Feb 2, 2017

indicabush said:
@Seamaiden ...As usual great diagnosis; like your new pic (new to me ).

Thank you! It's a Puerto Rican vejigante.

To the OP, I have had too many issues with ostensibly calibrated meters to not make that one of my first questions if it just doesn't seem right.

It's happening to me right now with our tap water in our new home. I'm getting a reading of 1ppm NH3/NH4+/- (ammonia/ammonium) straight out of the tap using my API aquarium test kit. That ain't right, EPA only allows something like .3 or .34ppm. (Reminds me, I need to call the water company because they only show NO3 as even being tested, not NO2 or NH3.) So I first question my testing methods, then the kit, and if all are shown to be satisfactorily reliable, then I'm going with the results.

Mongo006 · Feb 2, 2017

Ph meters seem find, double checked with a new handheld.
Did a slurry test with ro water that I had to slightly adjust to 7 ph. It said 5.7, on 2 meters. And that was the worst looking plant, they all are getting worse, stopped growing and are pretty much just eating their leaves. I checked the run off ppm, watered in with 1100, came out 1300 ppm x 500.
Am going to truck city water to my house and stop using the ro. Having a tough time watching them get worse day after day.

Mongo006 · Feb 2, 2017

This is one room, im using old hortilux flower bulbs to extend my veg time as I don't want to flip .

Mongo006 · Feb 2, 2017

I've foliar fed a mix of floralicious plus and cal mag plus and it didn't seem to do squat either. Ive foliared twice in the past week, using a surfactant and making sure to get the undersides of the leaves..

Mongo006 · Feb 2, 2017

It's 24 hour veg right now, why would I vent?

Mongo006 · Feb 2, 2017

Ya but as some of the people said they never have and have never had issues, I've grown here for 5 years and have done really well until I switched to coco from pro mix this round.

Mongo006 · Feb 2, 2017

Mongo006 said:
Ya but as some of the people said they never have and have never had issues, I've grown here for 5 years and have done really well until I switched to coco from pro mix this round.

I also did not use ro before either, am on a well and had it tested and they said there was sodium in it, so decided to put an ro in. The water has been fine, but decided to play it safe. I have a water softener and think it's been leaching salt into my well.

indicabush · Feb 3, 2017

Seamaiden said:
Thank you! It's a Puerto Rican vejigante.

To the OP, I have had too many issues with ostensibly calibrated meters to not make that one of my first questions if it just doesn't seem right.

It's happening to me right now with our tap water in our new home. I'm getting a reading of 1ppm NH3/NH4+/- (ammonia/ammonium) straight out of the tap using my API aquarium test kit. That ain't right, EPA only allows something like .3 or .34ppm. (Reminds me, I need to call the water company because they only show NO3 as even being tested, not NO2 or NH3.) So I first question my testing methods, then the kit, and if all are shown to be satisfactorily reliable, then I'm going with the results.

Methodology spot on.....Hopefully they won't get too confused with NO2 (nitrogen vs nitrate); as for NH3 I know that you would identify that immediately (but maybe they enjoy the odor).

Seamaiden · Feb 3, 2017

Mongo006 said:
Ph meters seem find, double checked with a new handheld.
Did a slurry test with ro water that I had to slightly adjust to 7 ph. It said 5.7, on 2 meters. And that was the worst looking plant, they all are getting worse, stopped growing and are pretty much just eating their leaves. I checked the run off ppm, watered in with 1100, came out 1300 ppm x 500.
Am going to truck city water to my house and stop using the ro. Having a tough time watching them get worse day after day.

If your run-off is coming out 400ppm higher than input, I think you're zeroing in on your issue.

I've never changed the pH of the slurry water, only measured before, then after. I'm not sure you're supposed to change the pH to 7.

Mongo006 said:
I also did not use ro before either, am on a well and had it tested and they said there was sodium in it, so decided to put an ro in. The water has been fine, but decided to play it safe. I have a water softener and think it's been leaching salt into my well.

Uh huh. While it's never happened to me, this does stick out.

Also, let me state that I have never grown in a sealed room or with CO2 enrichment. Enriching with CO2, to my understanding, changes things a bit.

Mongo006 · Feb 3, 2017

My ro water ph is 5.5, should I slurry test with that? 300ppm higher? I am going to be bringing in wAter hopefully in a few days to hopefully resolve the issue.

Seamaiden · Feb 3, 2017

I would just use the RO water, hopefully its EC is 0. Especially since you're also testing EC, by shifting the pH down you've just added to the EC total. Make sense?

Am At A Loss..

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Am At A Loss..

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