Yeah, that's definitely faciastion, by some at the farm also known as a mohawk. That mohawk bud at the top rotted in my case and turned out to be mostly leaf. I don't consider it a desirable mutation yield-wise, too many branches and leaves tightly together, but your miles may vary. Beautiful in a weird way though and I'd love to see it again later in flower. Thanks for posting.

It would be cool to cross a whorler with the extremely high yielding strain like the Blue Dream cut and then see if any of the offspring yields even more, and then just keep a clone. In other words a side project just to see if you can increase yield due to whorling. Have you weighed the worled versus non-whirls to compare yield?:panda:

I was just about to prune 2 of the 4 branches of two more AW plants and guess what... AW4 is female too. It gets weirder though, I already labeled it as female on the pot... Perhaps I'm too old for 2 days Amsterdam in one week...

Anyway, got 3 AW females now and 5 males.

I just pinched and bent the main stem of a couple of the P-F3, main stem is stretching like their chunk great grandparents. Not too happy with that but as expected. As I mentioned earlier I should probably cross it with the CH again.

Whats is Up MR Sat Man ? ! ! !
Lookin busy busy as always.
I have Nyvia II ready to hit the flower room again and was going to ask ya
If the 5 seeds I made from the 1st Pollen chucking I did with the Girl-scout Cookies Bx and Nyvia II
If out of the 5 I get a male regardless of what traits He shows will he still carry the recessive parts and once crossed a second time with Nyvia II would they come to the surface IE take the New Male pollen from the Nyvia II x GSC bx Cross grow out use pollen on Nyvia II again ?
Or will the raits be forever recessive.
Still having fun what ever happens
diggin the Pf3's
FlyJ

FlyinJStable said:

I have Nyvia II ready to hit the flower room again and was going to ask ya

Click to expand...

Oh I did not include the factor that you of course still have Nyvia II and can bc in my previous reply...

Yeah man, sounds like a good plan.

Imagine a recessive trait in Nyvia II, let's call it aa.Crossed with GSC, which for example has BB, you get all Ba plants (typical F1 hybrid of two x homozygous), and none will express the trait.

If you cross one of those F1 Ba plants back to the Nyvia's aa, you get 50% Ba, and 50% aa. I.e. after the backcross roughly half the offspring would express the recessive trait again. If you pick one of those aa plants from bx1, and cross that to Nyvia's aa again, all the bx2 offspring would have aa and express the trait, and it will be the same in every generation thereafter (not in 100% in reality fortunately, because of chromosomal crossover new combinations will arise).

If GSC has for example Bb, however, i.e. is not homozygous, the percentages will be different in the first cross, not 100% will be Ba, and then you can't see the plants in the Bx1 that have that recessive 'a' gene. That's why I suggested using the plants from all 5 seeds regardless but if you are going to backcross it doesn't even matter that much.

In reality there are a lot more genes and some will be homozygous and some heterozygous so the above is basically per trait.

I know it's long, but I highly recommend reading my posts in the cubing myth sticky in this thread. The keypart is to use multiple males, i.e. cross a population back to a plant, not one plant to one plant. However, a small number of males in backcrossing can be easily offset, by doing an additional backcross gen. A step extra perhaps but from a better starting point for your purposes. I.e. even with one male Nyvia x (Nyvia x GSC) is better than Nyvia x GSC as a starting point for backcrossing. So it may take an extra bc to get where you want to be, but as long as you 'can' backcross to Nyvia II you don't have to worry.

The real challenge is to get those same genes in the same homozygous or heterozygous combinations. For recessive traits that's actually easier because a recessive pheno has only one genotype (homozygous, aa) while complete dominant has 2 (AA and Aa both express as the same pheno while you want AA for true breeding). In other words you can 'see' the genotype of recessive traits making it easy to select.

Autoflowering trait being a good example, auto x auto is aa x aa is all aa plants. But if you need to breed photos from autos... i.e. cross PP with aa, you get all Pa in F1, which are all photos, and in F2 you get PP, Pa, and aa, from which you'd have to pick two PP to create only photos while PP and Pa express as the same pheno (both photos) so you can't see the genotype. If you pick one PP and one Pa (both photos) you get all photos too but 50% will still be Pa and carry the auto gene. If you then pick two of those Pa genotype, photo phenos, for the next gen you get that same F2 ratio again of both auto and photo and all three genotypes.

The way to test whether it's PP or Pa is a test cross, either to a known homozygous, or selfing. You could gain a lot of insight from doing the latter. Self Nyvia II, grow out a bunch and for every trait in the offspring that is the same in the Nyvia II it's likely homozygous (i.e. you selfed AA with AA so you get only AA, same for BB-ZZ and bb-zz :). For every trait that shows 2-3 different phenos in the offspring you know it's heterozygous in the Nyvia II (i.e. if Aa in Nyvia than selfed you get the typical F2 ratio, 25%AA, 50% Aa, 25% aa. If complete dominant AA and Aa are the same pheno, but aa will be different. Essentially, selfing it is obviously an easy way to see how stable it is.

You can learn that same info over time crossing in or back, selfing is just faster and the ideal starting point for any breeding project.

When you backcross to homozygous, the offspring becomes more homozygous. If you backcross to a heterozygous, you create variety. Knowing what traits are homozygous in Nyvia can prevent getting into an endless loop of F2 ratios for some traits.

At some point, to get the best results, closest to Nyvia II, you may have to cross two (different) siblings from the same generation.

E.g. if Nyvia is heterozygous for some trait, let's say Gg. And you cross gg from GSC to it, you get 50% Gg and 50%gg, two different phenos. If you pick gg and cross it back to Gg again you get the same thing. If you pick Gg and cross it back to Gg you get 25%GG, 50%GG, 25% gg. If you pick GG from that one and cross back to Gg you get 50%GG and 50% Gg (which at least will look the same but unless it's the last generation you risk selecting Gg again for the next, and then get gg again). Instead, you can cross a GG with a gg to get the Gg like it has in the Nyvia II. This may simply not be worth it for some traits, and for most genes you won't notice, and for many it simply won't matter (it's all cannabis after all, many genes are the same and doesn't matter if they come Nyvia or GSC), but for some key traits however, it may be the necessary finishing touch. So again, saving the genes through backcrossing is easy, getting them in the same combination is harder. But as long as you create backcross generations you will be able to create the necessary parents.

Sorry, bit longer than planned.. I hope it helps!

So if I self my favorite plant and grow the seeds out do I use that offspring to breed or is it just to see if it is homozygous or heterozygous?

Og Gong said:

So if I self my favorite plant and grow the seeds out do I use that offspring to breed or is it just to see if it is homozygous or heterozygous?

Click to expand...

A test cross is just that, a test to get information from the results. For many traits a sog with small 1 cola plants would do. If it turns out very stable they could be used for growing and selling and theoretically it's perfectly fine to use them for breeding. I have to add that I would not. Nothing against selfed or feminized but there are still too many unknowns. Also, if it's really that good, homozygous for most important traits, it makes a great candidate for backcrossing, inbreeding/sibling mating, open pollination, and creating true F1 hybrids. Which makes selfing seem like a waste of potential almost. With more insight in the cannabis genome and the effects of selfing it may be a missed opportunity but it's not for me. It's rather brute force and inevitable to narrow down the gene profile more than necessary.

If fem seeds are the goal I think they should preferably be the result of two sisters, it's already easier two select two great females than a male and female.

I got a question for you guys:

Pyrethrum or Amblyseius Californicus?

I got mites... Crazy weather, 2 closets in the room... I just killed a load of the CH plants, except the whorlers. The AW and P-F3 both have signs of mites on some leaves. Minor and just on a few leaflets so far, but I can tell they have been infested too. Need to get something and since I never had these before I'm not sure what's most effective.

Will post some pics later, cleaning up and scaling down a bit. Going to clean out the entire room and rebuild but need to finish these if I can. Jars running low cause of that late night seed run...

I use these 3 products if I see anything suspicious. I switch off with the MK and the Monterey with spraying and I use the DE for top dressing on the soil.

And thank you for the breeding info. You are awesome man.

Everybody's got mites this year
'cept me (knock on trichome)--
identified the mites yet???

AC will feed off mites and thrips where Phytoseiulus persimilis is sold especially for spider mites.

Also with PP is best to keep your temps at 22°C and rH 60-70% as they develop twice as fast as spider mites (Tetranychus urticae), a single PP will eat 5 mites per day or 20 eggs or 10-20 nimphs. Nuetzling is the german company that sells them at 25€ for 600 species wgich ahould take care of about 30m2

Took me two or three close reads to fully take notes and follow my whole plan
So my male is a Bx2 with very reliable traits from Jaws
Nyvia II is Just a crossed seed of DJ Blue OG and a Local southern grown that has not changed for 15-20 + years as it is a staple Southern Fire that has Colombian gold Lineage that is where it originated Im sure now.
so I have (Blue OG x Southern Fire Sativa Dom) x Girl scout Cookies Bx2 going to keep ALL 5 no mater what they are and let them cross pollinate with each other, and Put the Original Mother In the mix also
then pic my keepers from the seeds they produce.
I believe with what I have to work with Thats my best solution and I can honestly say Its
Something from My own Concept.
Once I have 100 seeds or so Then I can start going thru them looking for the next step and the will use the P squares principle to isolate or incorporate..
I have a lot to learn Thank you sat Man.
Time to go do more reading so I use the right language and not breed Hay.
LoL

FYI
I had a major Mite issue and kept
use Monterey
and a product called Green Clean
Mixed the Monterey as a dunk hold plant under for 50 seconds upside down

The green Clean
Green Clean is our favorite product here at Indoor Grow Source for eliminating spider mites and powdery mildew.
Green Clean is our favorite product here at Indoor Grow Source for eliminating spider mites and powdery mildew!
It is all natural and can be sprayed any time throughout the growing cycle, even on the day of harvest!
Dilution rate is .5-2oz per gallon making Green Clean very affordable to use.
Also available in 2oz. size.

Super bug killin Vibes Sat Man
FlyJ

Thanks for all the info guys. I really need to start using more preventive measures cause I've probably been lucky so far. I know very little about solving plant deficiencies and diseases and pests cause I usually run a sterile room. Time for me to go back to hydro after this one and make a few other changes... trying to do too much with too little space.

Toaster79 said:

AC will feed off mites and thrips where Phytoseiulus persimilis is sold especially for spider mites.

Click to expand...

Nice, I was just looking at those. They apparently work better in lower humidity than an alternative but keeping humidity high enough won't be a problem for me, it's keeping it low enough that's normally the challenge especially this time of year.

geologic said:

Everybody's got mites this year
'cept me (knock on trichome)--
identified the mites yet???

Click to expand...

They are a common problem here as well, also in commercial greenhouses, they call them "spint", which is Tetranychus urticae. I never had mites before and was a little surprised how fast they can infest plants. Especially the neglected CH, it's hard to spot on the AW and P-F3, but it's there. I can tell from the damage and I think from the eggs, I have not seen a mite yet or I'm not looking close enough.

I know why I got them this time though, the overlap between the veg box running 18/6 and flower box running 12/12 causing a period of high temps as well as preventing low temps at night. I think I also know where I got them... the local gardening center, I got a whole bunch of used pots there and did not clean them thoroughly enough or transferred them through me...

I haven't identified them yet. I think I found a few that resemble the two-dotted ones but too vague on the photo and scope. Have not seen any red ones so I suspect the former. I will try to get a good pic later. I did spot some eggs, which is hard cause they are almost the same as the bulb trichs from the early frost...

I just sprayed them down with a seaweed extract based solution that helps seal the leaves against little suckers. Also cleaning up and ditching plants I don't really need. So, that means my 400w is down. Sounds drastic but the whorl hunt closet already served its purpose and will hopefully soon be able to show why.

Ok, first a group shot of the current situation, mostly AW plants, some P-F3. Not too happy about the color of that light one, great plant otherwise, very sativa dom look for P. Hoping to pollinate that one with an AW male.


Also not very happy with the fish mix nutes, I hope the canna bioflores does a better job, switching to that soon for the P-F3.



Ok, now the mite trails:

^P-F3 plant, only spot I could find on that plant.

An AW male:


Now that I posted that pic....is that a mite left from the center, slightly to the bottom?

Some of CH were much worse, some of the AW clones too, clearly started in the 400w box.

Looks about the size and shape yes
if you flip the leaf and Magnify or take a underside pic you will see the eggs and Nesting webs.
you can get um S man
Kill kill Killl ! ! ! ! ok thats a bit much.
but yes it appears to be a Spider Mite

Sun's rising and haven't slept yet so will get back to them tomorrow. I'll try to buy a product to spray or even dip them tomorrow for starters. Checked some dutch growshop sites and since it's such a common issue there are obviously quite a few products too, including several that focus on all stages of their life cycle.

2nd on the green cleaner
From what I understand you don't have to worry about them becoming resistant to it
Best wishes
Keep em growing

Just checked by daylight and spotted one under a scope... nasty little critters. Definitely spider mites.


Need to call to check but looks like I can get this one locally:
www.spidermitecontrol.com/general-info/
Seems similar to GreenClean (can't get that one here).

Will probably drive to Amsterdam tomorrow, the challenge there will be picking one from the many different products but that'll give me some time to figure out which of those works best for the locals here. It seems there are at least 4 types of spider mites here...