Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

Chronic Monster · May 24, 2011

Hey there square, well looks like I gave you a free plug for your site.. LOL
So how do you like your products :)

I just gave the jr peters people a ring, and they emailed me the labels, I could have called just now about the heavy metal thing but im all baked and went with the email:rollj:

Chronic Monster · May 24, 2011

In thinking about it, i wonder how many growers actually have training in the ag/horticultural field. Seems most growers just learn from experience and reading books and sites like these, trial and error, etc..

I personally have no training just the ol hands on. So these companies probably realized hey there are all these people growing marijuana and they don't know what the fuck is up. Lets charge them 50 times what something should cost and tell it its marijuana specific. Then bam... myth becomes fact.

desertsquirrel · May 24, 2011

squarepusher said:
it contains Urea as a nitrogen source, and it is no bueno with hydroponics.

So, the companies that make specific nutes for marijuana, are Advanced Nutrients, Canna, H&G, etc.

Lots of urea in AN products... its use in a hydro system is highly debatable, however its in many main lines, not just Miricle Grow...

desertsquirrel · May 24, 2011

Chronic Monster said:
In thinking about it, i wonder how many growers actually have training in the ag/horticultural field. Seems most growers just learn from experience and reading books and sites like these, trial and error, etc..

I personally have no training just the ol hands on. So these companies probably realized hey there are all these people growing marijuana and they don't know what the fuck is up. Lets charge them 50 times what something should cost and tell it its marijuana specific. Then bam... myth becomes fact.

You have no idea man....

wobbly goblin · May 25, 2011

Chronic Monster said:
In thinking about it, i wonder how many growers actually have training in the ag/horticultural field. Seems most growers just learn from experience and reading, trial and error, etc.. I personally have no training just the ol hands on. So these companies probably realized hey there are all these people growing marijuana and they don't know what the fuck is up. Lets charge them 50 times what something should cost and tell it its marijuana specific. Then bam... myth because fact.

some/most cannabis growers on the web only grow cannabis and after they get into growing may try a flower or a tomato or sum such
most think cannabis is different then all other plants so they get worked up into a frenzy on the net at what is best and who is better and so they shop at "grow" stores where they can get the latest/greatest half baked nutrient deficient money maker instead of every other ag farmer out there with proven methods that shop at co-op's, ag stores
that's why dudes like fat mike at an is getting rich
ignorance has run a muck on most boards
enough ranting, try out the jacks and you will be pleasantly surprised
i use it in modified hempy's with straight perlite and straight napa #8822 depending on my mood

fwiw

squarepusher · May 25, 2011

desertsquirrel said:
Lots of urea in AN products... its use in a hydro system is highly debatable, however its in many main lines, not just Miricle Grow...

yeah, actually I noticed this, they seem to be the only brand to actually add urea to some of their formulas (although the % is fairly small). I really don't know if it is a performance enhancer, or a way to simply cut costs? For AN high prices, I would sincerely hope that their addition of Urea in some of their formulas is for a performance increase.

I speak with Daniel Fernandez every so often, this guy is a hydroponics/chemistry monster. He is the creator of Hydro Buddy software which basically lets you reverse engineer most formulas. Here is his article on Urea in Hydroponics

Urea in Hydroponics – Positive or Negative ?

After doing a study with several concentrations of Urea and Nitrate -both by themselves and combined – this research group found out that Urea does not improve crop yields in NFT systems and indeed pure nitrate does the best job when no media is in place. When media is introduced, organic media shows a faster Urea to Ammonia conversion but Ammonia to nitrate conversions are faster in inorganic media. However, the effect of Urea remains poor in the sense that nitrate-only crops outperformed almost all crops except for some plants grown with small quantities of Urea which proves to be beneficial in the same way as small additions of ammonia are already known to be.

So, smack me down and call me silly, but it sounds like AN is cheaping out by adding low cost Urea to some of their formulas, which is dumbfounding since they charge the highest prices.

squarepusher · May 25, 2011

btw, here is the formula for Jack's Professional 5-12-26 for 100 Liters @ 500ppm

Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) 63.9g
Potassium Nitrate 38g
Potassium Monobasic Phosphate 23.5g

So, to standardize to a 25 lb bag, we can mathematically get:
25 pounds = 11 339.8093 grams
63.9x + 38x + 23.5x = 11339.8
125.4x = 11339.8
x = 90.42

back to original equation

Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) 63.9g x 90.42 = 5778g
Potassium Nitrate 38g x 90.42 = 3436g
Potassium Monobasic Phosphate 23.5g = 2125g

This will yield 25 lbs of 5-12-26 formula, with Jack's you will also need the addition of micro /trace nutrients to get an exact copy.

altimood · May 26, 2011

Has anyone here heard of this custom GH formula that's bouncin" around?? Its called the Lucas formula or something like that. Somebody is rockin' the GH 3 part in two parts, mostly, and killin' it. I don't know the details but someone here does... I'm trying the GH 3 part with kool bloom for the first time but a friend told me about this formula to check out... Trying to see if it exists...

desertsquirrel · May 26, 2011

it has existed since the early 90's..... 9 micro 18 bloom....

Str8Dank · May 26, 2011

i know guys running it with great results in DWC. im talking about perfect looking plants and they claim no ph adjustments just weekly flush. i was going to order some in then opted to head away from active hydro for simplicity but i do miss pouring my medium down the drain.

Str8Dank · May 26, 2011

altimood said:
Has anyone here heard of this custom GH formula that's bouncin" around?? Its called the Lucas formula or something like that. Somebody is rockin' the GH 3 part in two parts, mostly, and killin' it. I don't know the details but someone here does... I'm trying the GH 3 part with kool bloom for the first time but a friend told me about this formula to check out... Trying to see if it exists...

i use it and i will 100% vouch it works phenomenal. i ran it last run with beastie bloom and cha ching and i've ran it with no additives also with great results.

this stuff just plain works and its cheap. i switched from ebb and flow to coco and soiless so i switched up to the whole fox farm lineup and yesterday at week 5 i switched back to lucas. the organic components of fox farm were not easily readable and only one of the 3 products is organic so you have this organic synthetic mix that you cant read with a meter. running it full strength base and 80% of additives was enough to cause some burn when i got to chachng so i figured i'd switch back to what i know works damn good. i've also ran house and garden full lineup and i just dont see more bang for the buck then lucas formula. i keep the ratio but not the ml/gal personally. since it is 8ml/gal of micro and 16ml/gal of bloom i use 1 part micro to 2 parts bloom and set the ppm's where i want them. i'll creep them up during veg and into flower just like any nute chart would be for any lineup and i'll add additives like cha ching to the water first then use the ratio to top off with base to hit the desired ppms i want. i've had 1/2lb plants in 2 gal bags by doing this and colas on non topped plants that were over 2 oz.

Str8Dank · May 26, 2011

there is also a big cult following on another site of running maxibloom as a 'lucas' formula as it has the same npk if mixed right and its even cheaper then buying GH micro and GH bloom like a lot cheaper. i've not tried it but one buddy of mine has and he likes it a lot and he knows his shit so im sure its legit. i'm going to give it a try i think its like $15 a bag and a bag will last forever based on the mix ratio i forget what it is but i know you dont use much. got to love dry solubles for how far they stretch!

LBZ Farmer · May 26, 2011

squarepusher said:
yeah, actually I noticed this, they seem to be the only brand to actually add urea to some of their formulas (although the % is fairly small). I really don't know if it is a performance enhancer, or a way to simply cut costs? For AN high prices, I would sincerely hope that their addition of Urea in some of their formulas is for a performance increase.

I speak with Daniel Fernandez every so often, this guy is a hydroponics/chemistry monster. He is the creator of Hydro Buddy software which basically lets you reverse engineer most formulas. Here is his article on Urea in Hydroponics

Urea in Hydroponics – Positive or Negative ?

After doing a study with several concentrations of Urea and Nitrate -both by themselves and combined – this research group found out that Urea does not improve crop yields in NFT systems and indeed pure nitrate does the best job when no media is in place. When media is introduced, organic media shows a faster Urea to Ammonia conversion but Ammonia to nitrate conversions are faster in inorganic media. However, the effect of Urea remains poor in the sense that nitrate-only crops outperformed almost all crops except for some plants grown with small quantities of Urea which proves to be beneficial in the same way as small additions of ammonia are already known to be.

So, smack me down and call me silly, but it sounds like AN is cheaping out by adding low cost Urea to some of their formulas, which is dumbfounding since they charge the highest prices.

Maybe they did it so they could get that magic, no ph just put in this much per gallon of each product.... Takes a long time to perfect something like that. I am not standing up for them but.... I tried AN... But It just wasn't Above and beyond.

Chronic Monster · May 26, 2011

@ Str8Dank

The cheapest I could mind maxibloom online is 16lbs for 71.00$

John Droe · May 26, 2011

I use Ionic Veg and Ionic Flower. A 2.5 gallon jug is about $65 They are very concentrated and last for a very long time. Also it is a simple 1 part. So no mixing, ph, boosters, bullshit, etc..

John Droe

Chronic Monster · May 26, 2011

John Droe said:
I use Ionic Veg and Ionic Flower. A 2.5 gallon jug is about $65 They are very concentrated and last for a very long time. Also it is a simple 1 part. So no mixing, ph, boosters, bullshit, etc..

John Droe

IMO ionic would fall into the overpriced hydroponic nutrient catagory.

DesertS was just saying how unconcentrated it is fwiw:)

desertsquirrel · May 26, 2011

7 grams per gal of maxi is lucus... lucas is a great program for nutrient users who know nothing about nutrients (most people) to start to learn about profiles. Its by no means the best way to run your system.

motherlode · May 26, 2011

^^ yes the "lucas method" has changed over the years

Chronic Monster · May 26, 2011

Holla DS,:)

I did a little reading over at the mag, was really impressed with the results people were getting with Jack's.

On a side note I still havn't heard back from the Jr peters people about the heavy metal break down for the 5-12-26
if I don't hear back from them by tomorrow ill give them a ring.

Interested in seeing what you choose to run for your next round.

Beachbum · May 26, 2011

Hey Guys, New fish here just started out. So be gentle with me.

The Jacks looks pretty good. On the J.R. Peters websight they also have a 16-4-17 Hydro Herb. Can i use this in place of the 5-12-26 and the 15.5-0-0 and save myself the trouble mixing. I want to make this as idiot proof as possible. Thanks in advance. Beach

Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

Chronic Monster

Chronic Monster

desertsquirrel

desertsquirrel

wobbly goblin

squarepusher

squarepusher

altimood

desertsquirrel

Str8Dank

Str8Dank

Str8Dank

LBZ Farmer

Chronic Monster

John Droe

Chronic Monster

desertsquirrel

motherlode

@Rolln_J

Chronic Monster

Beachbum

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