Coco Rookie needs a lil help...

Peacheater81 · Jul 27, 2011

Hey,

Thanks for taking a look. This is my second time using coco in pots in a flood and drain recirculating system.

I have been getting some purple stems, leaf stems and petioles. I have been adding between 7-10ml/gal of Botanicare Cal Mag+. I have been feeding 3 times per light cycle for 15min each.

I am using Botanicare ready gro (aeroation form) with Botanicare nutes. Im in week 1 of flowering. I used Roots Ex in veg with Botanicare grow and liquid Karma...and hygrozyme.

I am also using RO water. Foliar feeding with nitrozyme every other misting.

I also notice a big rise in pH during the week. When I make the solution, I pH around 5.7-8 and the next day it will be 6.2-4. My mix steps are:

1. RO water into res
2 add 10ml/gal Cal Mag (1L total for 100 gal res)
3. add base nutes
4. pH
5. add additives (Liq Karma, hygrozyme)

I have a 1098 gal/hr pump circulating the res and 4 air stones on 3/4 of full power from the air pump.

Last time I notice lots of purpling of the stems and interval yellowing of the leaves, which I thought was Mag, but my friend said was a P def.

This run (LA confidential and 1 The White), I am seeing purpling of the stems and some leaves have the main vein purple.

A few leaves off one plant (that looked druppie) had rust colored spots off the main vein and black around the spots.

Here are some pics below, thanks for all advice...:cool0041:

http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1913.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1924.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1923.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1919.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1920.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1922.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1921.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1914.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1915.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1916.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1917.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1918.jpg

I should add that the first pic is of The White, it has much more purpling that the LA's. The main stalk on it and everything else is purple. The LA's are more striped purple.

Rushoe · Jul 27, 2011

10 cal mag seems really high to much call mag can lock out P or K I forgot witch one but to much cal mag can look shit out bro lots of ppl thank the issue is not enough so they add more me in coco no matter what strain I have never had to use more the 1tsp per gallon of cal mag. When u mix why are u phing 1st then add in the additives? I am not very big on additives the few I do have drop my ph so I add then first and adjust if I have to.But thats for me I dont know someone might disagree about the 10 calmag and the additives being put last ...I run coco/perlite in 3 gallons drain to waste hand water whatever 1tsp calmag and tweaked lucas my plants always look nice and healthy when I run it like that.Good luck

Darth Fader · Jul 27, 2011

Hey bro. I don't know the first thing about ebb&flow but you really shouldn't have to soak pots full of coco more that once a day. It's not as if the coco would dry that fast or that plants that size could consume that much water to require it. The leaves look mg deficient, but 10 ml per gal is a lot. I mean, just measure your ppms after putting 10 ml in a gallon and realize that 200ppm tap water is considered the cut-off point between using GH Micro and GH Hardwater Micro. Just saying. When is the last time you flushed you media? Have you been watching your ppm levels? You may wish to starting monitoring them - fresh res level, reading at day 1, day2 ,etc. Probably would go a long way to figuring out your prob. You might try to cut that CalMag in half and if you want some extra Mg, just use some epsom salts.

G/L

Edit: Yeah i totally agree with Rushoe on the pH. Actually you could be getting Mg deficiency simply b/c your pH is out of range. I would adjust pH last. Note H&G says to do it after base nutes but they are the ONLY company I've ever heard of that recommends this. Plenty of great growers doing it the other way is enough evidence for me. LOL, even w/ H&G, I'm pH'ing last.

CelticEBE · Jul 27, 2011

I run CalMag at about 5ml per gallon and things run super smooth for me.

Peacheater81 · Jul 27, 2011

CelticEBE said:
I run CalMag at about 5ml per gallon and things run super smooth for me.

Thanks for all the info...

Are you (anybody reading) using RO water and coco in a flood and drain?

I just did a flush with 1/4 strength nuts and 5ml/gal of cal mag last night...

I do watch the ppms and pH a couple times a day.

I think I'm at around 1300ppm right now.

Rushoe · Jul 28, 2011

Peacheater81 said:
Thanks for all the info...

Are you (anybody reading) using RO water and coco in a flood and drain?

I just did a flush with 1/4 strength nuts and 5ml/gal of cal mag last night...

I do watch the ppms and pH a couple times a day.

I think I'm at around 1300ppm right now.

1300 is way to high for plants in the stag bring down to about 750 or 800....1300 is where u wanna be after stretch for some strains....what kinda of base nutes are u using?

jimbobthe3rd · Jul 28, 2011

I thought flood & drain setups were mainly all hydroton or rockwool? I have a few small plants same size as yours, that i water only once a day for 1-2 minutes and they are thriving! Coco is good to let dry out to be slightly damp then re-water, when it's constantly wet my plants were always droopy n such!

JPLord01 · Jul 28, 2011

First off top feed coco no F&D. DTW 6/9 and your off to the races PH 5.8
No calmag needed 1 gm of epsom salt per gl mix in hot water then add to rez.
Your food use GH. You asked if I get def I do not on 6/9 GH When you water check the weight of the pot after you water then after a day see how it fills if it is about 1/2 the weight water agen. If you follow my recipe on my page you will have a good grow on problems. You get the big ph swings from the F&D check your ph every day it
is fine to let it swing to 6.2 then bring it back down to 5.8. Get a drip setup going this will be your best friend.

Seamaiden · Jul 28, 2011

My last run I did flood and drain because it's SO MUCH easier on my back. It probably would have worked well if it were not for the root aphids. I personally don't think your pH is ranging terribly out of whack. I flooded every two to four days, let it remain for a couple of hours, then drained and fed that to my garden plants. I didn't reuse it to reflood or anything like that.

Now, for the White. I've run her three or four times and she's a BITCH. Just a complete and total fucking bitch. She's difficult to get dialed in right, and the biggest problem is balancing Ca & Mg. I ended up separating them out and giving each component in alternating feeds using a 6% Ca product and MgSO4 (Epsom salt). I bet you can run just about any other strain and it will be perfectly happy with conditions that the White says just aren't perfect enough.

I, too, see the beginnings of a magnesium issue, but have to agree with the others who are suggesting dropping the saturation a bit as well as the Cal-Mag. However, you may want to try giving a foliar feed of 1/4tsp MgSO4 in 1gal water (with a surfactant of some sort) and see if that stops the progression of the very slight interveinal chlorosis.

I also see the reddening/purpling of the petioles you're talking about, and frankly, that can be difficult to stop for me. I have yet to find a good product with high P that also does not have high K, but I do have a liquid guano that's 2-5-0 or something like that. Stinks worse than ass, but FUCK do the girls love it! I truly hate premixing with this particular stuff, though. Get it on your hands and you'll stink until the skin wears off, I swear.

One thing at a time, is my suggestion, change one thing, see what happens, go from there.

cemchris · Jul 28, 2011

There is a lot of info in this tread all over the place.

Coco for ebb and flo works great. E&F will leave a salt buildup at the water level of the pots. You need to flush coco when running it on the tables. 1 once a week is a good schedule. Drip clean is another alt.

1300 ppms is high. Even for flowering on some strains. Veg wont usually get past 800. 650 is about where I run it once they are established. 10 ml of calmg is some times not to high. Calmg def is almost always a PH issue.

Are you running a chiller? Water temp is really important. Know that your water temps are? A pump that big is prob heating your res up quite a bit. my 440 got my res temps in the mid 70's. No good.

CNS17 is a good one also. Has a ton of calmg already in it.

Darth Fader · Jul 28, 2011

JPLord01 said:
First off top feed coco no F&D. DTW 6/9 and your off to the races PH 5.8
No calmag needed 1 gm of epsom salt per gl mix in hot water then add to rez.
Your food use GH. You asked if I get def I do not on 6/9 GH When you water check the weight of the pot after you water then after a day see how it fills if it is about 1/2 the weight water agen. If you follow my recipe on my page you will have a good grow on problems. You get the big ph swings from the F&D check your ph every day it
is fine to let it swing to 6.2 then bring it back down to 5.8. Get a drip setup going this will be your best friend.

JP, you're on ro water, yeah? How many ppm will 1 gm of epsom salt measure. I just throw in a pinch which measures about 30 ppm/gal.

TrichromeFan · Jul 28, 2011

Lots of good info here. I would agree about the ppm's being a bit on the high side. I hit up to 700ppm in veg and 1100 in peak flower. You probably are also over due for a flush. Too much CaMg. I use 5 ml per gal in flower till I cut it out about the end of week 4. I am running the CNS right now with NO CaMg and the girls look dy-no-mite. Your girls look like the coco is left wet for too long, leaving not enough oxygen at the root level. Does it really take 15 min to flood the tray? That is a little on the long side. You just need to get up to the desired flood level, then drain right away. If it is taking too long, try a bigger pump. The chiller is a great improvement, especially on a recirculating system. I am pretty certain that Motherlode is running some coco in ebb and flow. Maybe take some cues from his methods. If you didn't know, he rocks.

Best of luck on a speedy recovery.

-TF

hiboy · Jul 29, 2011

Was gona say the same thing others have noted
too much watering in coco
im in rw but my buddy ogonly on here is a coco fanatic and hes nowhere near your sched
h

Peacheater81 · Aug 4, 2011

Seamaiden said:
My last run I did flood and drain because it's SO MUCH easier on my back. It probably would have worked well if it were not for the root aphids. I personally don't think your pH is ranging terribly out of whack. I flooded every two to four days, let it remain for a couple of hours, then drained and fed that to my garden plants. I didn't reuse it to reflood or anything like that.

Now, for the White. I've run her three or four times and she's a BITCH. Just a complete and total fucking bitch. She's difficult to get dialed in right, and the biggest problem is balancing Ca & Mg. I ended up separating them out and giving each component in alternating feeds using a 6% Ca product and MgSO4 (Epsom salt). I bet you can run just about any other strain and it will be perfectly happy with conditions that the White says just aren't perfect enough.

I, too, see the beginnings of a magnesium issue, but have to agree with the others who are suggesting dropping the saturation a bit as well as the Cal-Mag. However, you may want to try giving a foliar feed of 1/4tsp MgSO4 in 1gal water (with a surfactant of some sort) and see if that stops the progression of the very slight interveinal chlorosis.

I also see the reddening/purpling of the petioles you're talking about, and frankly, that can be difficult to stop for me. I have yet to find a good product with high P that also does not have high K, but I do have a liquid guano that's 2-5-0 or something like that. Stinks worse than ass, but FUCK do the girls love it! I truly hate premixing with this particular stuff, though. Get it on your hands and you'll stink until the skin wears off, I swear.

One thing at a time, is my suggestion, change one thing, see what happens, go from there.

Thanks to all for the replies. I have adjusted some things.

Dropped the CalMag a little, flushed with clearex by topwatering, watering for 11 mins 2x a light cycle. I have been adding a little (100ml of Organo Guano 0-4-0 because I thought my P was getting locked out...

I talked to a Botanicare rep today and he said he ran up to 15ml/gal of Calmag...I don't know, sounds high. I also started adding Sweet, which is Magnesium Sulfate.

cemchris said:
There is a lot of info in this tread all over the place.

Coco for ebb and flo works great. E&F will leave a salt buildup at the water level of the pots. You need to flush coco when running it on the tables. 1 once a week is a good schedule. Drip clean is another alt.

1300 ppms is high. Even for flowering on some strains. Veg wont usually get past 800. 650 is about where I run it once they are established. 10 ml of calmg is some times not to high. Calmg def is almost always a PH issue.

Are you running a chiller? Water temp is really important. Know that your water temps are? A pump that big is prob heating your res up quite a bit. my 440 got my res temps in the mid 70's. No good.

CNS17 is a good one also. Has a ton of calmg already in it.

Res Temp is about 70-74...gonna get an air conditioner for the room,...using frozen 2L now. I didn't think about the pump, that is a clever thought.

TrichromeFan said:
Lots of good info here. I would agree about the ppm's being a bit on the high side. I hit up to 700ppm in veg and 1100 in peak flower. You probably are also over due for a flush. Too much CaMg. I use 5 ml per gal in flower till I cut it out about the end of week 4. I am running the CNS right now with NO CaMg and the girls look dy-no-mite. Your girls look like the coco is left wet for too long, leaving not enough oxygen at the root level. Does it really take 15 min to flood the tray? That is a little on the long side. You just need to get up to the desired flood level, then drain right away. If it is taking too long, try a bigger pump. The chiller is a great improvement, especially on a recirculating system. I am pretty certain that Motherlode is running some coco in ebb and flow. Maybe take some cues from his methods. If you didn't know, he rocks.

Best of luck on a speedy recovery.

-TF

I want to say that the high ppms are read after adding in the cal mag, base nuts, liq karma, aquashield, roots ex, etc...

I also have mykos in the coco and have been using calcarb....I used the tea on some house plants (got free samples) the stuff is really killer.

Below are pics from today, Flowered for 1 week yesterday. pH 6.1 1545ppm

http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1927.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1928.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1930.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1931.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1933.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1935.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1936.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1938.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1940.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1941.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1942.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1943.jpg
http://i140.invalid.com/albums/r18/danguini/The%20Alien%20Ship/IMG_1944.jpg

Seamaiden · Aug 5, 2011

You know you can give Mg in a foliar application, yes? Try this: Mix 1/4tsp MgSO4 (plain old Epsom salt) with 1gal water. Don't worry about pH, just put a drop or four of (NON-ANTIMICROBIAL!) dish soap and mix it up, spray it on making sure to hit the undersides of the leaves. See what happens.

The White can take 15ml/gal of Cal-Mag no problema. The problem arises when you're trying to feed her other things. This was how and why I ended up separating out Ca and Mg in the feedings, using a Ca product (Calplex will work for you I think, I have a bottle but haven't used it yet) and Epsom salt. One feeding they get Ca, the next they'll get Mg. Mg is a lot easier for me to dose up because you get so much in MgSO4, too.

I do see the slight beginnings of a P deficiency. Reddened petioles, not normal on The White. Otherwise, those girls are quite tumescent and are feeling agreeable to the conditions you've provided.

Peacheater81 · Aug 6, 2011

I just got some CES samples so I have the Cal and Mag seperate. Hydro stores have epsom salt?

Seamaiden · Aug 6, 2011

No, it's much better than that. Any market or pharmacy will have Epsom salt.

potgutz · Aug 8, 2011

top feed with coco and mix in a good handful of dolomite lime to 30 litres of coco

Coco Rookie needs a lil help...

Coco Rookie needs a lil help...

Peacheater81

Rushoe

Darth Fader

CelticEBE

Peacheater81

Rushoe

jimbobthe3rd

JPLord01

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

cemchris

Darth Fader

TrichromeFan

hiboy

Peacheater81

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

Peacheater81

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

potgutz

Coco Rookie needs a lil help...

Coco Rookie needs a lil help...

Peacheater81

Rushoe

Darth Fader

CelticEBE

Peacheater81

Rushoe

jimbobthe3rd

JPLord01

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

cemchris

Darth Fader

TrichromeFan

hiboy

Peacheater81

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

Peacheater81

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

potgutz

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