Compost Tea Catalyst, Yucca, etc

Blaze · Aug 2, 2011

Hey fellow farmers-

I finally used up the big box of Growing Solutions Catalyst I bought last year. I've been looking into replacing it with a cheaper, and hopefully more effective home made blend. I was wondering if anyone else had much experience with this or had any info that would be applicable.

The GS Catalyst consists of humic acids, seaweed, rock powder, azomite and "botanical ingredients." The old original label says "yucca" instead of "botanical ingredients" so I am pretty sure that is what is still in there. I already have humic acid and seaweed in my brew, so it is the last two ingredients that need to be replaced.

I already have azomite, and I just ordered some calphos soft rock phosphate and pyrophyllite clay (Pyro-Gro Rare Earth Minerals) to make up the "rock powder." I got a recipe for ACT a while back that called for the following ratios, was wondering if anyone had an idea if these ratios sound right:

For 10 gallons:

25 mL Azomite
25 mL pyrophyllite clay
25 mL soft rock phosphate powder

Blaze · Aug 2, 2011

Which brings me to my second question: Yucca! Yucca seems to be all the rage now, I see it is many, many products. However, I have not been able to find much scientific based information on it. I searched around a bit today and yesterday and was unable to find and studies or info posted by by a reputable source, like say UC Davis on the subject.

However I have seen a few ACT recipes from reputable sources that use it. Supposedly it is a fungal food source so I was curious about adding it to my brew. I ordered a bottle of OMRI listed Therm X70 Yucca Extract, which is a foliar and wetting agent. Not sure if this is what should be used in ACT though. Also found a company that makes Ag grade yucca extract w/o preservatives just for ACT, called Ag-Aide 50. Was also wondering if the food grade yucca powder you can get at health food stores would also do the trick.

So the questions would be:

What does Yucca actually do?

How much would I use in a 10 gal batch of ACT?

What type of Yucca product should be used?

mrbong73 · Aug 2, 2011

I've mostly heard of it as a wetting agent in potting soil mixes. I think its in liquid karma and other products as well.
This link is a thread discussing it a bit.
Cheers.

motherlode · Aug 2, 2011

like mr bong says its a wetting agent in soil

I think Freak uses a yucca product as a surfactant for foliar feeding

The Kind Man · Aug 3, 2011

Yucca contains saponins, which are natural plant steroids as well as a wetting agents to reduce the surface tension of water so it does not drip off as easily. When you pinch, top, or break a stem, the plant excretes a sap that contains saponins to heal the area where the break occurred. It also induces Systemic Resistance and Acquired Systemic Resistance in affected plants. Pretty cool how nature works... Also check out a product called SEA-90, its a great compost tea catalyst and is completely water soluble unlike Pyro Gro or azomite. It can be added to compost tea as a catalyst or you can add it straight into your reservoir for 84+ elements on the periodic table in their biologically correct proportions.

The Kind Man
|Scientia Ipsum Est Vox|
|Knowledge Itself Is Power|

mrbong73 · Aug 3, 2011

You may want to look at Aloe Vera Juice as an additive.
I use it in most of my waterings and foliars. 1-2oz per gallon.

"A few properties of Aloe Vera"
Amino Acid

Aloe Vera contains the following Amino Acids: Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Valine, And Tryptophan, Alanine, Arginine, Asparagine, Cysteine, Glutamic Acid, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine, Glutamine, And Aspartic Acid.

Enzymes

Those include the following: Amylase, Bradykinase, Catalase, Cellulase, Lipase, Oxidase, Alkaline Phosphatase, Proteolytiase, Creatine Phosphokinase and Carboxypeptidase.

Micro & Micro Nutrients

These include Vitamins A, C, E and B2, B3, B5, B6 and B12 in addition to Choline, Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, Magnanese, Chromium, Selenium, Copper, Iorn, Potassium, Phosphorus and Sodium.

Lingnins & Polysaccharides

They include: Galactose, Xylose, Arabinose, Acetylated Mannose And Acemannan.

And of course there's the Salicylic acid compound and its associated benefits as far as root development. Adding 1/4 cup of Aloe Vera juice/extract/whatever term you want to use to 1 gallon of water and use that to wet your rooting medium - even Grodan Rockwool cubes - will give you root size and development that is nothing short of amazing. Or at least in my experience."

-pulled from another cannabis forum.

Seamaiden · Aug 3, 2011

Ok, if it's saponins then you can get that by simply using quinoa and rinsing it. If you need some aloe vera I have a plant with lots of pups that can be easily divided. Gotta go to the desert to get the yucca, can't help you there. (Though my folks do have a place just north of Yucca Valley. Needless to say, yucca are easy to find out there.)

InTheBeginning · Aug 5, 2011

I've never tried any of the commercial catalysts and have been trending more and more to simplicity. We had to brew up a fast ACT a couple months ago to help save some ailing magnolia trees and the soft rock phosphate and pyrophyllite powders were still packed away in a mystery location after moving. We just scooped some vermicompost (VC) from a recently harvested worm bin (3 to 4 months digestion time) and blended it with some older VC and threw in 0.5% black strap molasses. I did not expect much but lo and behold in just over 24 hours we had an ACT complete with bacteria/archaea, flagellates and fungal hyphae. I have always used the rock powders because I feel that they contribute to the bacterial/archaeal diversity and I believe the pyrophyllite promotes the growth of a particular organism which I believe helps degrade powdery mildew [but that is conjecture].

I was accustomed to using and recommending humic acid occasionally after it was recommended by several friends, (& it is recommended by Ingham as a fungal food) however after putting in too much once and seeing a very limited tea under the scope, I took a closer look, as did CT Guy. We both concluded that humic acid in a liquid in anything except very miniscule amounts, inhibited microbial development. I absolutely need to do more careful research into this and I'd like to hear from others with microscopes about this. In the interim I've stopped recommending humic acid as an ingredient in ACT but do recommend it be applied separately to soil. Varying amounts, ranging from 10% down to 0.07% (as I recall) were mixed with distilled water and (vermi)compost and checked periodically over 72 hours. Some samples also included black strap molasses. In all samples there was an inhibitory effect on both bacterial/archaeal and fungal division and growth.

I must say too, that more and more I'm impressed by the complex but simple food source which is cane black strap molasses. It seemingly feeds bacteria and fungi equally well, contrary to what is generally stated.

phenotyper · Aug 5, 2011

MrBong, is there a specific brand of aloe vera juice you recommend?

OGONLY · Aug 5, 2011

Great post IntheBeginning. Its nice to have guys like you, Blaze and CT Guy here on the farm.

I love hearing imperical evidence about certain ingredients. There's so much contradiction and conjecture on this subject. Nothing like a microscope to get in there and see what's really going on.

Keep up the good work, happy farming!

AliasAO · Aug 5, 2011

Blaze said:
Which brings me to my second question: Yucca! Yucca seems to be all the rage now, I see it is many, many products. However, I have not been able to find much scientific based information on it. I searched around a bit today and yesterday and was unable to find and studies or info posted by by a reputable source, like say UC Davis on the subject.

However I have seen a few ACT recipes from reputable sources that use it. Supposedly it is a fungal food source so I was curious about adding it to my brew. I ordered a bottle of OMRI listed Therm X70 Yucca Extract, which is a foliar and wetting agent. Not sure if this is what should be used in ACT though. Also found a company that makes Ag grade yucca extract w/o preservatives just for ACT, called Ag-Aide 50. Was also wondering if the food grade yucca powder you can get at health food stores would also do the trick.

So the questions would be:

What does Yucca actually do?

How much would I use in a 10 gal batch of ACT?

What type of Yucca product should be used?

I went to two different places yesterday looking for that thermX70 but i couldnt find it. Where did you order it from Blaze? How much $$?

It is used as a saturator/penetrator to add in with Nitrozime for example. Thats what I was told.

Blaze · Aug 5, 2011

InTheBeginning said:
I've never tried any of the commercial catalysts and have been trending more and more to simplicity. We had to brew up a fast ACT a couple months ago to help save some ailing magnolia trees and the soft rock phosphate and pyrophyllite powders were still packed away in a mystery location after moving. We just scooped some vermicompost (VC) from a recently harvested worm bin (3 to 4 months digestion time) and blended it with some older VC and threw in 0.5% black strap molasses. I did not expect much but lo and behold in just over 24 hours we had an ACT complete with bacteria/archaea, flagellates and fungal hyphae. I have always used the rock powders because I feel that they contribute to the bacterial/archaeal diversity and I believe the pyrophyllite promotes the growth of a particular organism which I believe helps degrade powdery mildew [but that is conjecture].

I was accustomed to using and recommending humic acid occasionally after it was recommended by several friends, (& it is recommended by Ingham as a fungal food) however after putting in too much once and seeing a very limited tea under the scope, I took a closer look, as did CT Guy. We both concluded that humic acid in a liquid in anything except very miniscule amounts, inhibited microbial development. I absolutely need to do more careful research into this and I'd like to hear from others with microscopes about this. In the interim I've stopped recommending humic acid as an ingredient in ACT but do recommend it be applied separately to soil. Varying amounts, ranging from 10% down to 0.07% (as I recall) were mixed with distilled water and (vermi)compost and checked periodically over 72 hours. Some samples also included black strap molasses. In all samples there was an inhibitory effect on both bacterial/archaeal and fungal division and growth.

I must say too, that more and more I'm impressed by the complex but simple food source which is cane black strap molasses. It seemingly feeds bacteria and fungi equally well, contrary to what is generally stated.

Very informative! I too have been not using humic when doing the actual brewing lately. I've been adding it back in after the brew cycle finishes and then applying it. Good to hear about the molasses too, that's the same type I've been using in my brew. Interesting to hear that it feed fungal growth as well.

AliasAO - the therm x70 I ordered online at GrowOrganic.com. It was $30 for a quart of it. Also got a pint of preservative-free yucca extract to brew with from T & J Enterprises for $14.

InTheBeginning · Aug 5, 2011

Just a note to CT Guy who sent me a PM which I cannot answer because I don't have enough posts. You really can't tell who I am? ;>

On the humic acid; better to apply it on its own rather than in the tea at all, even when finished brewing. That is probably what you meant but I'm just playing safe.

Blaze · Aug 5, 2011

Good to know. Do you apply anything else with the humic when you do a soil drench? So far this year I haven't used any liquid products except to foliar feed with. Everything has been via the soil prep, top dressings, and the compost tea, and so far the plants are doing great.

InTheBeginning · Aug 5, 2011

I don't see any problem combining humic acid with other amendments like fish hydrolysate, etc.

Shredder · Aug 5, 2011

Inthebeginning, I know humus has humic acid in it, and I know humic acid makes nutrients available. I use it in light does but fairly regularly. How much or little of humic acid do we need, in light of a 20% humus content through either ewc or thermo compost? And what happens in the soil, microbe wise, with too much humic acid? I imagine there is a too much, for balance if nothing else. Shredder

Seamaiden · Aug 6, 2011

InTheBeginning said:
Just a note to CT Guy who sent me a PM which I cannot answer because I don't have enough posts. You really can't tell who I am? ;>

On the humic acid; better to apply it on its own rather than in the tea at all, even when finished brewing. That is probably what you meant but I'm just playing safe.

In your previous post you specified "humic acid in liquid form." My first thought jumped to MicroHume, a dry humic acid product, and how that may behave in a compost tea solution.

InTheBeginning · Aug 6, 2011

Inthebeginning, I know humus has humic acid in it, and I know humic acid makes nutrients available. I use it in light does but fairly regularly. How much or little of humic acid do we need, in light of a 20% humus content through either ewc or thermo compost? And what happens in the soil, microbe wise, with too much humic acid? I imagine there is a too much, for balance if nothing else. Shredder

I'm sure you realize that humus and humic acid are quite different. Humus can be used in virtually any amount without worry. As far as humic acid goes, there are many different products and it is likely best to follow the manufacturer's instructions. From my personal perspective, I have rarely used humic acid because I believed my needs or soil's needs were fulfilled from vermicompost. There are many opinions on the subject. CT Guy knows more about using humic acid than I.

In your previous post you specified "humic acid in liquid form." My first thought jumped to MicroHume, a dry humic acid product, and how that may behave in a compost tea solution.

What I actually said was 'in a liquid', meaning in a liquid environment like ACT rather than in a soil environment. The humic acid we used was a dry form which is mixed with water.

We both concluded that humic acid in a liquid in anything except very miniscule amounts, inhibited microbial development.

~ITB

Seamaiden · Aug 6, 2011

Do you feel that source (of humic acid) plays a role in this issue with microbe activity in presence of humic acid(s) (for instance, leonardite/lignite sources vs ???)? Have you made any such observations that would color your opinion, that source of HA makes a difference?

InTheBeginning · Aug 6, 2011

Seamaiden: I have not researched this thoroughly enough to really say much more than, what I observed motivated me to discontinue using and recommending humic acid for use (as a food source) in CT. There may be others who have different observations and opinions but in the tests I ran, I could see no advantage to using humic acid as a microbial food source in a liquid. I'll let CT Guy report on the source of humic acid we used if he is so inclined.

On a side note, we just brewed up a 50 gallon batch of ACT to use on some crappy fungal stuff going on in my lawn and in 20 hours the tea was teaming with bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae. There were also a few testate amoebae, ciliates and flagellates. We likely would have got the usual bloom of flagellates if left to brew for 26 to 36 hours but I wanted primarily the high fungal hyphae volume to compete (I hope) with whatever it is. For the brew we used only 2.38% vermicompost and 0.50% black strap molasses (again no rock powders or...).

Interestingly adjacent to the infected lawn is a new patch of lawn unaffected by the pathogen (so far) which we put in last fall on top of a 2 inch layer of compost/soil amended with soft rock phosphate and molasses.

Compost Tea Catalyst, Yucca, etc

Compost Tea Catalyst, Yucca, etc

Blaze

Blaze

mrbong73

motherlode

@Rolln_J

The Kind Man

mrbong73

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

phenotyper

OGONLY

AliasAO

Blaze

InTheBeginning

Blaze

InTheBeginning

Shredder

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

Compost Tea Catalyst, Yucca, etc

Compost Tea Catalyst, Yucca, etc

Blaze

Blaze

mrbong73

motherlode

@Rolln_J

The Kind Man

mrbong73

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

phenotyper

OGONLY

AliasAO

Blaze

InTheBeginning

Blaze

InTheBeginning

Shredder

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

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